Lesbian Sex Wars (Full Version)

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RedMagic1 -> Lesbian Sex Wars (6/3/2011 7:02:17 AM)

I thought several arguments (on all sides) of the male dominance thread were historically inaccurate regarding the role of feminist theory in discussion of male sexuality -- and whether Bdsm is healthy for women. I would like to start a new thread, so I can stay away from that mess, and maybe even have a clusterfuck of my very own.

Here's a link to a historical article about the Lesbian Sex Wars: http://sitemaker.umich.edu/lesbian.history/the_sex_wars

And here is a link to a relevant discussion on Fet.: http://fetlife.com/groups/1809/group_posts/92526

Enjoy.




xssve -> RE: Lesbian Sex Wars (6/3/2011 7:33:44 AM)

Girlfight! Woo-hoo!




OttersSwim -> RE: Lesbian Sex Wars (6/3/2011 7:39:17 AM)

Damn....I thought it might be a new show on G4...or Spike...  [:-]




xssve -> RE: Lesbian Sex Wars (6/3/2011 7:42:42 AM)

quote:

Pornography is the essential sexuality of male power: of hate, of ownership, of hierarchy; of sadism, of dominance. The premises of pornography are controlling in every rape and every rape case, whenever a woman is battered or prostituted, in incest, including in incest that occurs before a child can even speak, and in murder—murders of women by husbands, lovers, and serial killers (Dworkin xxxix).
So none of that stuff happened before pornography?

Got about 30k+ years that we know of to account for there.




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Lesbian Sex Wars (6/3/2011 8:08:25 AM)

Yeah, not a fan of Dworkin.




Madame4a -> RE: Lesbian Sex Wars (6/3/2011 8:15:20 AM)

Andrea Dworkin is pretty damned outdated today... but I do remember...

I'll suggest that within any culture, there are always subcultures looked down upon.. I'm a part of two lesbian subcultures.. perhaps a thrid that's always had to at least be assertive about its right to exist legitimately within the lesbian feminist community and the lesbian community in general..

I'm a leather dyke... I'm a femme, and I prefer my relationships to be a butch/femme dynamic...

lesbians make me insane.. I actually call myself a dyke... its more me...

sometimes I think we spend way too much time trying to argue about things...




Madame4a -> RE: Lesbian Sex Wars (6/3/2011 8:22:13 AM)

and Red ... love the fetlife thread... several of my friends posting in there...[:)]




RedMagic1 -> RE: Lesbian Sex Wars (6/3/2011 8:24:13 AM)

Thanks for the post, M4a, I was hoping you might weigh in.

As long as you brought it up, what is the difference between a lesbian and a femme dyke?




0ldhen -> RE: Lesbian Sex Wars (6/3/2011 8:30:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Girlfight! Woo-hoo!



Bring on the jello pool!!!!!




xssve -> RE: Lesbian Sex Wars (6/3/2011 8:41:59 AM)

Rubin strikes me as the much better thinker, economic exploitation is the flip side of sexual exploitation, and that is a more universal concern in terms of social economy - i.e., if a society condones the exploitation of women, they probably aren't going to balk at exploiting any other politically disenfranchised group, children, minorities, etc., and that's where as humanist, I'm onboard with feminism in general.

Kind of a tightrope when it comes to PE, but as I mentioned elsewhere it keeps me on my toes.

I've aroused PC ire for using the word dyke...

I informally divide feminists/lesbians into two main categories, militant and... non-militant

Militant: hates men.

Non-militant: likes being a woman.

Naturally, I tend to clash with the former, having had the gall to be born a man. [8|]

My older sister is a lesbian, and I've sort of been able to watch her attitudes change over the years, all the women in my family are pretty strong, and were so before it was popular or necessary, but that's pretty much my only insight, other than various readings and the aforementioned clashes.




HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Lesbian Sex Wars (6/3/2011 8:46:27 AM)

What exactly is your question? Or do you just want us to state our views on the "Sex Wars" in general and hope a discussion develops?




RedMagic1 -> RE: Lesbian Sex Wars (6/3/2011 8:54:45 AM)

Section guidelines don't require a question. They require threads to engage in genuine discussion of bdsm and related topics. Since the anti porn crusaders like Dworkin and esp. macKinnon were also opposed to bdsm and power Exchange relationships I felt it appropriate to post in General. The adoption of parts of MacKinnon's thought into Canadian law is why bondage porn is technically illegal in Canada. (The Fet thread touches on this.)

I would be glad if the discussion flowed in any genuine, productive direction.




chiaThePet -> RE: Lesbian Sex Wars (6/3/2011 8:55:03 AM)


Soooo a woman has her finger on the button.

It will be the first war where they'll be staying in and eating out.

What?

chia* (the pet)




xssve -> RE: Lesbian Sex Wars (6/3/2011 9:07:36 AM)

And, I don't want to hammer on the porn angle, but that is an area where a significant amount of the current debate has shifted to, and there has formed a distinct social-economic dichotomy: the sex trade in general appears to be split between opportunity: for webcam girls, for example, it's an opportunity to make money in a shaky economy, while on the flip side, human trafficking appears to have reached disturbing levels - whether that's because it's out from under the rug, or there really is more of it, it's an issue that can no longer be ignored, and it runs the gamut, the sex trade dominates, but it also encompasses the economic slavery or children, kidnapping, immigration, etc.

The right want's to blame it all on porn, which I think represents a motivation to sweep it all back under the rug, the recent Rihanna flaps are a good example, she's currently being pilloried by the right for suggesting it's ok for an abuse victim to defend herself, following the hysteria over her BDSM video, which depicted a lot of femdom imagery.

To what extent do you think porn has allowed women to talk more openly about sexuality?

i.e., seems to me a woman would be much more likely to report rape or abuse if she doesn't have to overcome the hurdle of being stigmatized for bringing up the subject of sex at all, which is the situation that prevailed under Victorian standards with very few exceptions, Mae West for example was a singular figure, though I think it was Dr Ruth who actually took the subject mainstream.

So, I'm talking about the social-political impact, rather than the more nuanced psycho-sexual aspects, à la Angela Carter, for instance.




ResidentSadist -> RE: Lesbian Sex Wars (6/3/2011 9:07:41 AM)

Nice article and it's good to see it summed up in one place where everyone got credit for what they did.




mnottertail -> RE: Lesbian Sex Wars (6/3/2011 9:10:28 AM)

I was looking in those articles to find out who was killed, wounded and missing in action, in the great Lesbian Sex Wars,  guess I gotta go to the Salvation Army to find that info.




xssve -> RE: Lesbian Sex Wars (6/3/2011 9:12:00 AM)

I missed the fet link, I was kicked out of the "Masculinity without Entitlement" group, apparently being a non-submissive man = entitlement.

But please, let us leave that tarbaby alone, or at least maintain diplomatic standards, otherwise it just turns into a headbutting contest.




HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Lesbian Sex Wars (6/3/2011 10:55:32 AM)

I wasn't meaning to imply you had to have a question, its just that threads that have no apparent purpose sort of bother me, it would be helpful if the OP stated a view, an area of focus, or at least presented an article one could agree or disagree with. And directing us to the fet thread is of no use to me, I can't read it without a log in.

As far as the sex wars go, I really don't expect much of a discussion, because we are all here on a site dedicated to relationships that involve a degree of inequality between the partners, so outside of one particular troll, we're all pretty much in the "Pro-Sex" camp by definition.

So I'm guessing the porn issue is really what you're getting at, so I'll focus on that.

I don't really like most porn, it just doesn't really turn me on a lot. I'd rather do it, or imagine it than watch it. But I don't think its really a source of great evil, after all its been around for ages and we have survived. But then again I never really thought much about it. So that's just what I'll do, I'll do the dishes and some laundry and think it over and be back later on with my ideas.





ResidentSadist -> RE: Lesbian Sex Wars (6/3/2011 11:01:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
I was looking in those articles to find out who was killed, wounded and missing in action, in the great Lesbian Sex Wars,  guess I gotta go to the Salvation Army to find that info.

Andrea Dworkin died in 2005.  I wasn't fond of her views or the fact she hated the Marquis de Sade.  




RedMagic1 -> RE: Lesbian Sex Wars (6/3/2011 11:19:59 AM)

Heather, I have the following secret agenda for this thread: (1) I want the make the CM boards a sukoshi less heteronormative, (2) I want to clear up some errors I saw in your own thread.

Here's something pointed. You made the following statement recently.
quote:


If you mean Dworkin, then her famous line about sex equaling violation, well if you actually read the book, you'd understand that the quote is pulled from a passage in which she is explaining the male supremacist view of sex. That's right folks, the sex=rape concept (which isn't even how she said it) is a MALE view, not a feminist one.

I believe that your general statement is false (though I'm not sure about the specific unmentioned quote), and demonstrates that you probably focused your reading on sources that tried to ameliorate the profound contradictions in the feminist movement at the time. Further, even if I am wrong, it is an objective fact that there are many "famous" people in the leather and gay communities who agree with me, so they are wrong too. Indeed, many people consider Dworkin a hypocrite or a traitor, because she made bank off the evils of mf sexuality in favor of ff sexuality, all the while secretly living with a male lover.

You might consider making a blank Fet profile. There are at least two people on that thread who debated Dworkin in live debates. I heard her speak once myself, in the late 1980s.




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