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Lesbian Sex Wars - 6/3/2011 7:02:17 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		I thought several arguments (on all sides) of the male dominance thread were historically inaccurate regarding the role of feminist theory in discussion of male sexuality -- and whether Bdsm is healthy for women. I would like to start a new thread, so I can stay away from that mess, and maybe even have a clusterfuck of my very own.

Here's a link to a historical article about the Lesbian Sex Wars: http://sitemaker.umich.edu/lesbian.history/the_sex_wars

And here is a link to a relevant discussion on Fet.: http://fetlife.com/groups/1809/group_posts/92526

Enjoy.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec
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RE: Lesbian Sex Wars - 6/3/2011 7:33:44 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		Girlfight! Woo-hoo!

(in reply to RedMagic1)
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RE: Lesbian Sex Wars - 6/3/2011 7:39:17 AM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		Damn....I thought it might be a new show on G4...or Spike...  

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I am on a journey of authenticity and self.

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RE: Lesbian Sex Wars - 6/3/2011 7:42:42 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Pornography is the essential sexuality of male power: of hate, of ownership, of hierarchy; of sadism, of dominance. The premises of pornography are controlling in every rape and every rape case, whenever a woman is battered or prostituted, in incest, including in incest that occurs before a child can even speak, and in murder—murders of women by husbands, lovers, and serial killers (Dworkin xxxix).
So none of that stuff happened before pornography?

Got about 30k+ years that we know of to account for there.

(in reply to xssve)
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RE: Lesbian Sex Wars - 6/3/2011 8:08:25 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Yeah, not a fan of Dworkin.

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[page 23 girl]



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RE: Lesbian Sex Wars - 6/3/2011 8:15:20 AM   
Madame4a


Posts: 2045
Joined: 2/4/2008
From: Washington, DC area
Status: offline 		Andrea Dworkin is pretty damned outdated today... but I do remember...

I'll suggest that within any culture, there are always subcultures looked down upon.. I'm a part of two lesbian subcultures.. perhaps a thrid that's always had to at least be assertive about its right to exist legitimately within the lesbian feminist community and the lesbian community in general..

I'm a leather dyke... I'm a femme, and I prefer my relationships to be a butch/femme dynamic...

lesbians make me insane.. I actually call myself a dyke... its more me...

sometimes I think we spend way too much time trying to argue about things...

_____________________________

You're crazy bitch
But you f*ck so good, I'm on top of it
When I dream, I'm doing you all night
Scratches all down my back to keep me right on

(in reply to RedMagic1)
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RE: Lesbian Sex Wars - 6/3/2011 8:22:13 AM   
Madame4a


Posts: 2045
Joined: 2/4/2008
From: Washington, DC area
Status: offline 		and Red ... love the fetlife thread... several of my friends posting in there...

_____________________________

You're crazy bitch
But you f*ck so good, I'm on top of it
When I dream, I'm doing you all night
Scratches all down my back to keep me right on

(in reply to RedMagic1)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Lesbian Sex Wars - 6/3/2011 8:24:13 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks for the post, M4a, I was hoping you might weigh in.

As long as you brought it up, what is the difference between a lesbian and a femme dyke?

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to Madame4a)
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RE: Lesbian Sex Wars - 6/3/2011 8:30:26 AM   
0ldhen


Posts: 2221
Joined: 12/27/2010
From: Henhouse in Trolltopia, Harleyville USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Girlfight! Woo-hoo!



Bring on the jello pool!!!!!

_____________________________

Everyone crashes. Some get back on. Some don't.

Za'beeta Regal, Et Vogo O' Lurwadra'd Wyka Go Abosh Inunsey.

(in reply to xssve)
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RE: Lesbian Sex Wars - 6/3/2011 8:41:59 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		Rubin strikes me as the much better thinker, economic exploitation is the flip side of sexual exploitation, and that is a more universal concern in terms of social economy - i.e., if a society condones the exploitation of women, they probably aren't going to balk at exploiting any other politically disenfranchised group, children, minorities, etc., and that's where as humanist, I'm onboard with feminism in general.

Kind of a tightrope when it comes to PE, but as I mentioned elsewhere it keeps me on my toes.

I've aroused PC ire for using the word dyke...

I informally divide feminists/lesbians into two main categories, militant and... non-militant

Militant: hates men.

Non-militant: likes being a woman.

Naturally, I tend to clash with the former, having had the gall to be born a man.

My older sister is a lesbian, and I've sort of been able to watch her attitudes change over the years, all the women in my family are pretty strong, and were so before it was popular or necessary, but that's pretty much my only insight, other than various readings and the aforementioned clashes.

(in reply to Madame4a)
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RE: Lesbian Sex Wars - 6/3/2011 8:46:27 AM   
HeatherMcLeather


Posts: 2559
Joined: 5/21/2011
From: The dog house
Status: offline 		What exactly is your question? Or do you just want us to state our views on the "Sex Wars" in general and hope a discussion develops?

(in reply to RedMagic1)
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RE: Lesbian Sex Wars - 6/3/2011 8:54:45 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		Section guidelines don't require a question. They require threads to engage in genuine discussion of bdsm and related topics. Since the anti porn crusaders like Dworkin and esp. macKinnon were also opposed to bdsm and power Exchange relationships I felt it appropriate to post in General. The adoption of parts of MacKinnon's thought into Canadian law is why bondage porn is technically illegal in Canada. (The Fet thread touches on this.)

I would be glad if the discussion flowed in any genuine, productive direction.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)
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RE: Lesbian Sex Wars - 6/3/2011 8:55:03 AM   
chiaThePet


Posts: 2694
Joined: 2/4/2007
Status: offline
Soooo a woman has her finger on the button.

It will be the first war where they'll be staying in and eating out.

What?

chia* (the pet)


_____________________________

Love is a many splendid sting.

You can stick me in the corner, but I'll probably just end up coloring on the walls.

(in reply to RedMagic1)
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RE: Lesbian Sex Wars - 6/3/2011 9:07:36 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		And, I don't want to hammer on the porn angle, but that is an area where a significant amount of the current debate has shifted to, and there has formed a distinct social-economic dichotomy: the sex trade in general appears to be split between opportunity: for webcam girls, for example, it's an opportunity to make money in a shaky economy, while on the flip side, human trafficking appears to have reached disturbing levels - whether that's because it's out from under the rug, or there really is more of it, it's an issue that can no longer be ignored, and it runs the gamut, the sex trade dominates, but it also encompasses the economic slavery or children, kidnapping, immigration, etc.

The right want's to blame it all on porn, which I think represents a motivation to sweep it all back under the rug, the recent Rihanna flaps are a good example, she's currently being pilloried by the right for suggesting it's ok for an abuse victim to defend herself, following the hysteria over her BDSM video, which depicted a lot of femdom imagery.

To what extent do you think porn has allowed women to talk more openly about sexuality?

i.e., seems to me a woman would be much more likely to report rape or abuse if she doesn't have to overcome the hurdle of being stigmatized for bringing up the subject of sex at all, which is the situation that prevailed under Victorian standards with very few exceptions, Mae West for example was a singular figure, though I think it was Dr Ruth who actually took the subject mainstream.

So, I'm talking about the social-political impact, rather than the more nuanced psycho-sexual aspects, à la Angela Carter, for instance.

(in reply to xssve)
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RE: Lesbian Sex Wars - 6/3/2011 9:07:41 AM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline 		Nice article and it's good to see it summed up in one place where everyone got credit for what they did.

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)
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RE: Lesbian Sex Wars - 6/3/2011 9:10:28 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I was looking in those articles to find out who was killed, wounded and missing in action, in the great Lesbian Sex Wars,  guess I gotta go to the Salvation Army to find that info.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Lesbian Sex Wars - 6/3/2011 9:12:00 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		I missed the fet link, I was kicked out of the "Masculinity without Entitlement" group, apparently being a non-submissive man = entitlement.

But please, let us leave that tarbaby alone, or at least maintain diplomatic standards, otherwise it just turns into a headbutting contest.

(in reply to xssve)
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RE: Lesbian Sex Wars - 6/3/2011 10:55:32 AM   
HeatherMcLeather


Posts: 2559
Joined: 5/21/2011
From: The dog house
Status: offline 		I wasn't meaning to imply you had to have a question, its just that threads that have no apparent purpose sort of bother me, it would be helpful if the OP stated a view, an area of focus, or at least presented an article one could agree or disagree with. And directing us to the fet thread is of no use to me, I can't read it without a log in.

As far as the sex wars go, I really don't expect much of a discussion, because we are all here on a site dedicated to relationships that involve a degree of inequality between the partners, so outside of one particular troll, we're all pretty much in the "Pro-Sex" camp by definition.

So I'm guessing the porn issue is really what you're getting at, so I'll focus on that.

I don't really like most porn, it just doesn't really turn me on a lot. I'd rather do it, or imagine it than watch it. But I don't think its really a source of great evil, after all its been around for ages and we have survived. But then again I never really thought much about it. So that's just what I'll do, I'll do the dishes and some laundry and think it over and be back later on with my ideas.

(in reply to RedMagic1)
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RE: Lesbian Sex Wars - 6/3/2011 11:01:38 AM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
I was looking in those articles to find out who was killed, wounded and missing in action, in the great Lesbian Sex Wars,  guess I gotta go to the Salvation Army to find that info.

Andrea Dworkin died in 2005.  I wasn't fond of her views or the fact she hated the Marquis de Sade.  

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Lesbian Sex Wars - 6/3/2011 11:19:59 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		Heather, I have the following secret agenda for this thread: (1) I want the make the CM boards a sukoshi less heteronormative, (2) I want to clear up some errors I saw in your own thread.

Here's something pointed. You made the following statement recently.
quote:


If you mean Dworkin, then her famous line about sex equaling violation, well if you actually read the book, you'd understand that the quote is pulled from a passage in which she is explaining the male supremacist view of sex. That's right folks, the sex=rape concept (which isn't even how she said it) is a MALE view, not a feminist one.

I believe that your general statement is false (though I'm not sure about the specific unmentioned quote), and demonstrates that you probably focused your reading on sources that tried to ameliorate the profound contradictions in the feminist movement at the time. Further, even if I am wrong, it is an objective fact that there are many "famous" people in the leather and gay communities who agree with me, so they are wrong too. Indeed, many people consider Dworkin a hypocrite or a traitor, because she made bank off the evils of mf sexuality in favor of ff sexuality, all the while secretly living with a male lover.

You might consider making a blank Fet profile. There are at least two people on that thread who debated Dworkin in live debates. I heard her speak once myself, in the late 1980s.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to ResidentSadist)
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