Martyrdom (Full Version)

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hlen5 -> Martyrdom (4/21/2011 10:57:59 AM)

I was just listening to NPR, and a 13 year old boy in Afghanistan (Middle East, anyway) was describing his change of heart in the hospital. He had concluded blowing up infidels was wrong up after he failed and lost his arm in the process. He was convinced to do so by the Taliban. He was worried the Taliban would now come to kill him. His family had not been in contact since he was in the hospital.

If martyrdom is so hot and a bullet train to heaven, why hasn't Osama bin Laden strapped on a vest, gone somewhere very public and hit the button? The "imam" that has encouraged so many, including the TX Army doctor who's name I won't type? Why hasn't he gone out with a bang?

If the leaders of martyrdom don't kill themselves, why don't the outcasts/brainwashed slobs take notice and say "If you believe it, why don't you do it"?



LafayetteLady -> RE: Martyrdom (4/21/2011 11:00:14 AM)

The same reason that Nazis didn't take notice of Hitler's Jewish ancestry. It would blow a huge hole in what they are doing.



kdsub -> RE: Martyrdom (4/21/2011 11:09:23 AM)

I’d be willing to bet there has not been one suicide bomber that did not have that same thought hlen…but I guess they have more faith in the message then the messenger.

Butch



Owner59 -> RE: Martyrdom (4/21/2011 11:10:46 AM)

Maleficent types have always tried to appeal to the easily duped,simpler minds of their societies and in ours,tricking them into doing their dirty work.Fomenting racial/religious hatred and fearful ugly narratives about the sub-human "enemy" ,is standard operating procedure for them.



hlen5 -> RE: Martyrdom (4/21/2011 11:20:36 AM)

The thing that got me the most is a duped 13 year old one-armed boy (whose survival was still in question) worrying about getting murdered in his bed. By "virtue" of his actions, he evidently orphaned himself.

I'm sure some might post he got what he deserved, but a 13 year old boy? What a waste of life.



WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Martyrdom (4/21/2011 1:27:02 PM)

Hlen, it truly is one of the most awful human tragedies. I guess part of the problem is that the questions that occur in the largely secular West wouldn't necessarily occur in highly traditional faith based societies so my own assumption is that it may not be normal for prospective martyrs to question why Jihadi leaders and radical Iman's don't offer themselves for martyrdom. They appear to be seen as having a very different role as leaders, spiritual guides etc. I recall Nietzsche said something about believers willingly subscribing to the moral codes of an assumed world to determine their lives in the real world. One could see martyrdom as one of the most extreme examples of that. BTW I don't think Hitler was Jewish although the claim does appear from time to time often from people on the far-right, Iran etc. This is what Ian Kershaw says about the claim: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Hitler/Ian-Kershaw/e/9780393337617#EXC ("read the extract" -Ch:1, paragraphs 11-13).



nephandi -> RE: Martyrdom (4/21/2011 1:45:57 PM)

Greetings

To be fair, if I where a part of a fanatical army bent on beating down the infidels then I would not want the leaders to sacrifice themselves, after all the army would need the leaders. If Bin Laden is actually believing what he preaching he might see it as a great sacrifice on this part that he do not get to be a martyr himself as he have to lead the army, after all from a strategic perspective one good leader is worth dozens of underlings.

Now off course I do not support the Taliban, the Al Queda or any other terrorist group, they are nut jobs. I am just saying that there is a good reason why the leaders do not blow themselves up, the same reason why the USA military do not send the Generals or the President out to do missions which are critical but which is so dangerous there is a good chance they will not return. An army need it's leaders.

I wish you well.



FullCircle -> RE: Martyrdom (4/21/2011 1:52:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5
If martyrdom is so hot and a bullet train to heaven, why hasn't Osama bin Laden strapped on a vest, gone somewhere very public and hit the button? The "imam" that has encouraged so many, including the TX Army doctor who's name I won't type? Why hasn't he gone out with a bang?

Exploding children are less conspicuous than men with beards.

quote:


If the leaders of martyrdom don't kill themselves, why don't the outcasts/brainwashed slobs take notice and say "If you believe it, why don't you do it"?

They are brainwashed.



tazzygirl -> RE: Martyrdom (4/21/2011 2:49:44 PM)

Not all are brainwashed.. many are threatened.



FullCircle -> RE: Martyrdom (4/21/2011 2:57:26 PM)

Threatened with something worse than death presumably. ABBA?



hlen5 -> RE: Martyrdom (4/21/2011 5:01:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

.......... BTW I don't think Hitler was Jewish although the claim does appear from time to time often from people on the far-right, Iran etc. This is what Ian Kershaw says about the claim: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Hitler/Ian-Kershaw/e/9780393337617#EXC ("read the extract" -Ch:1, paragraphs 11-13).



I believe Alice Miller (a German sociologist and author, who wrote the Untouched Key, The Drama of the Gifted Child and other books) also stated he had Jewish ancestry.

There are would be martyrs whose families are paid, and martyrs that are coerced. That still doesn't really explain how such denial occurs that this boy doesn't see the BS he's swallowing. All these "leaders" saying "go ahead, Allah's waiting". It's just unreal.

Nephandi I hear what you are saying, but the end goal is different for a secular Army than those "Jihadis".

Also the boy didn't blow up his family, but none have visited him in the hospital.



TheShrew -> RE: Martyrdom (4/21/2011 5:02:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Threatened with something worse than death presumably. ABBA?


Phenomenal.



gungadin09 -> RE: Martyrdom (4/21/2011 5:51:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5
If martyrdom is so hot and a bullet train to heaven, why hasn't Osama bin Laden strapped on a vest, gone somewhere very public and hit the button?


At great personal sacrifice he's decided to serve the greater good, i'm sure.

pam



tweakabelle -> RE: Martyrdom (4/21/2011 6:32:24 PM)

I heard that interview too heln5. I found it harrowing that the poor kid is now terrified that the Taliban will try to kill him or punish his family for his 'failure'.

It might be a little easier to understand if you had shared my educational experiences at a Catholic school. I think I was about 10 when I first encountered the teachings below.

We were taught that to die a martyr for the faith was the noblest of all things. Those who died in defence of the faith were guaranteed entry into everlasting heaven, automatic sainthood and eternal respect. Families of martyrs would be venerated for generations to come.

We were also taught that if there was a clash between the Church's laws and civil society's laws, we were obliged to obey the Church's laws. Otherwise it was straight to Hell and eternal damnation.

I'm unaware of what the Islamists promise female martyrs - it's unlikely to be 21 virgins or whatever - but any one can see it's not a big step from what young girls (and I assume boys) are taught at Catholic schools as matter of routine faith to suicide bombing.

I'm unaware if this teaching has changed. There's no theological reason for it have done so, but I don't know.



TheHeretic -> RE: Martyrdom (4/21/2011 7:06:46 PM)

Down in LA, Hlen, the hospitals and jails have a steady stream of useless gangbangers around that age bracket who decide that shooting is bad, after they get shot and locked up. Their families do come to see them, though.

Brainwashed and/or psychotic teenagers are a scary thing.



WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Martyrdom (4/21/2011 7:08:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
.......... BTW I don't think Hitler was Jewish although the claim does appear from time to time often from people on the far-right, Iran etc. This is what Ian Kershaw says about the claim: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Hitler/Ian-Kershaw/e/9780393337617#EXC ("read the extract" -Ch:1, paragraphs 11-13).


I believe Alice Miller (a German sociologist and author, who wrote the Untouched Key, The Drama of the Gifted Child and other books) also stated he had Jewish ancestry.

If I remember correctly Alice Miller was a psychologist who blamed Hitler's behaviour on his father chastising him with corporal punishment which was controversial with a lot of people, understandably so in my opinion. I assume she was an academic of repute but she wasn't a historian. Ian Kershaw is probably the historian of the highest repute specialising on that era - if you have in interest in that time you should check out his documentary series on the Holocaust. Its harder to watch than many programmes on that horrific era but extremely insightful even for those who know the story fairly well.



LafayetteLady -> RE: Martyrdom (4/21/2011 7:50:57 PM)

We are talking modern times with what you learned in the catholic church. What laws of the church would violate civil laws? No martyrs for the catholic faith died by their own hand. In fact, if they did, it would be considered an unforgiveable sin because it would be suicide.

The Islamic people doing this have a twisted definition of being a martyr.



tazzygirl -> RE: Martyrdom (4/21/2011 8:15:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Threatened with something worse than death presumably. ABBA?


This article, if true, speaks of the use of heroine to brainwash children.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/75627/Taliban-s-12-child-bombers-chain-of-terror-that-brought-child-killers

This one speaks of the kidnapping...

On the day of a planned attack, the designated suicide bomber is taken to a mosque to be congratulated for being chosen by God. “Sometimes he is also heavily drugged before the attack,” the official said.

The children were told that they should not allow anyone, even their parents, to get in the way of jihad. “You must not hesitate even to kill your parents if they are on the wrong side,” said Kurshid Khan, 14, who was selected for training which could have taken him to South Waziristan.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6728276.ece

I cannot speak for the accuracy or the reputation of these sites... however, where there is smoke, many times there is fire.

Between drugs, forced isolation, sleep deprevation and threats, its no wonder why these children do as they are told.



LadyPact -> RE: Martyrdom (4/21/2011 8:28:55 PM)

While I appreciate the reference links, tazzy, but I don't think it's that extreme.

Children learn what they are taught.  It's that simple.  What's happening there today isn't all that different than kids brought up decades ago that believed in the KKK.  Hate and racism were all they knew.  Just because burning crosses didn't explode doesn't make it any different. 

Maybe I'm the only one who sees it this way, but there is definitely a parallel.



tazzygirl -> RE: Martyrdom (4/21/2011 8:40:02 PM)

I tend to believe the stories of the few children who have survived.



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