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How do you see it? - 3/17/2011 8:26:25 PM

SillyIllySally

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Joined: 6/11/2010
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I am a bit new to this side of CM and do not post much so please pardon me if this has been asked before. The following are just my thoughts and not meant to negate anyone elses.
Often the questions I see asked in the forums are relationship based. Of those a lot of them surround an existing or impending commitment/collaring etc. Time and time again the response seems to be some version of "how would you handle it if it were a vanilla relationship". I believe that I understand the underlying reason for these responses. To me though it just doesn't equate. If you take a vanilla relationship and add to it, power exchange, or kink or s&m or any number of those combined is it not then something different? A simple example of what I mean would be a cucumber can be a pickle but once a pickle it can no longer be a cucumber? It seems to me that at least some of these things should be looked at a bit different. The question is then, where is the line? Where do YOU as an individual stop looking at it from a vanilla or standard point of view? If in fact you do at all.

Post #: 1

RE: How do you see it? - 3/17/2011 8:34:02 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

personally, I don't.

I don't separate my life or relationships into "bdsm" or "vanilla".

I'm simply in a relationship wiht a dominant personality man. The same things that held for my past relationships still hold in this one. Nothing at all is different. Why should it be? It still takes the same kind of work to make it successful.

What makes a relationship work for my family or friends is the same thing that makes my relationship work....communication, honesty, integrity, faithfulness

(in reply to SillyIllySally)

Post #: 2

RE: How do you see it? - 3/17/2011 8:34:47 PM

LillyBoPeep

Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
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i can kinda understand what you're saying, but also situations with people are never as cut and dry as a cucumber-gone-pickle. =p and hey, you can pickle okra, asparagus, watermelon rind, anything you want. they're all pickles, but not all of them were cucumbers. so pickles aren't really black-n-white either.

in all seriousness, i may be a kinky person, but i still like watching spongebob squarepants and going to art galleries. i'm a whole person, who also happens to be kinky. if you deal with a only parts of a person,and neglect the others, they'll tend to ignore you and search for something that attends to all parts.
there are some different viewpoints, sure -- there are things i'm open to, and things that attract me that may not attract a "vanilla" woman. but under all of that, i'm still a whole person, who wants to be dealt with as a whole person.

a lot of times people assume that kinky people are so enormously different just because they conduct relationships or have sex a particular way. so there's this assumption that there are "vanilla rules" of dating, and mystical "kinky rules," where everything is completely and utterly different. all the standards and codes of behavior are totally new and complicated and -- NO. everything you learned in "vanilla world" still applies, because kinky people are still regular people.

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(in reply to SillyIllySally)

Post #: 3

RE: How do you see it? - 3/17/2011 8:35:02 PM

KyttynTheMynx

Posts: 4880
Joined: 5/10/2006
From: Moosecrotch, Va
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I think what they are intending to do with that phrase is isolating the problem that they mentioned (such as "Bobby is cheating on me. What do I do?") and telling the person "If Bobby is cheating, you should handle it like you would if he was just a boyfriend. Either stay and take it, or roll out!"

In my life I dont see a line, but I do have to keep things in neat little compartments from time to time so as not to offend, traumatize, confuse, or corrupt those who dont understand. I view my relationships in this realm as I do my past vanilla ones. Its a relationship. Itll have ups and downs. Drama and peace. I am gonna roll with the punches and handle myself accordingly.

_____________________________

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(in reply to SillyIllySally)

Post #: 4

RE: How do you see it? - 3/17/2011 9:51:33 PM

LadyNTrainer

Posts: 1584
Joined: 5/20/2009
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If you mean "when do I get to throw the basic common sense precepts of human emotions and building solid foundations for human relationships out the window and replace them with the rules of Twue Dominance", the answer is that you don't get to. D/s relationships are still human relationships, and the basic common sense stuff is still going to be basic common sense. If you want a human relationship to work, you need a solid foundation of trust, honesty, communication skills, personal responsibility, mutual consideration and respect (though possibly different and non-equivalent forms of respect). Being kinky does not make you exempt from this stuff.

In my experience, the domly-doms who try to replace all of the common sense human relationship stuff with stuff they learned from a BDSM porn movie tend to have their relationships implode in drama. I'm not saying you can't also have a D/s, BDSM or TPE relationship with all the rules thereof, but if it is not built on the solid foundation of a human relationship, if you try to replace all the rules of basic human relationships with D/s rather than enhance or supplement them, there's a whole lot of potential for issues.

_____________________________

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(in reply to SillyIllySally)

Post #: 5

RE: How do you see it? - 3/17/2011 10:00:15 PM

Arpig

Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
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quote:

If you mean "when do I get to throw the basic common sense precepts of human emotions and building solid foundations for human relationships out the window and replace them with the rules of Twue Dominance", the answer is that you don't get to. D/s relationships are still human relationships, and the basic common sense stuff is still going to be basic common sense. If you want a human relationship to work, you need a solid foundation of trust, honesty, communication skills, personal responsibility, mutual consideration and respect (though possibly different and non-equivalent forms of respect). Being kinky does not make you exempt from this stuff.

In my experience, the domly-doms who try to replace all of the common sense human relationship stuff with stuff they learned from a BDSM porn movie tend to have their relationships implode in drama. I'm not saying you can't also have a D/s, BDSM or TPE relationship with all the rules thereof, but if it is not built on the solid foundation of a human relationship, if you try to replace all the rules of basic human relationships with D/s rather than enhance or supplement them, there's a whole lot of potential for issues.

I was going to make a reasoned reply, but instead I will just quote what LadyNTrainer said. I could not agree more if I was paid to, and I could not have said it better if I spent an hour writing it

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(in reply to LadyNTrainer)

Post #: 6

RE: How do you see it? - 3/17/2011 10:03:44 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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Think of it this way. Carol and I are a couple and we want all the things that pretty much most couples do. We want to be safe and warm and intimate with each other. We want to smile together, laugh together, and grow old together. The fact that I have absolute authority in the relationship doesn't change any of that. So then here's the gig. Out of all the things that I could potentially do with my authority, a great many of them are things that Carol and I would've chosen collectively if we were still "vanilla". That makes sense. We weren't stupid then and I'm not stupid now. If we were making reasonably smart choices before, why would my choices be that much different now?

Insofar as some line I'm going to leave that for other people to worry about. I don't give a rat's ass whether I'm vanilla or not. What I care about is that Carol and I are happy.

The only difference I'm aware of in my marriage since the collaring is that I make all the decisions now. Where it is different is when it comes to decision making. Everything else is the same.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to SillyIllySally)

Post #: 7

RE: How do you see it? - 3/17/2011 11:22:26 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

Irrespective of relationships, M/s, sadism and kink is always part of my mind set even if it just my view that the woman with me would look so jolly good kneeing naked before me in a collar and leashed to me.

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(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 8

RE: How do you see it? - 3/17/2011 11:54:42 PM

TheShrew

Posts: 519
Joined: 2/15/2009
From: The state I live in? Confusion.
Status: offline

It's relative to the issue which arises.

If your girl went out and spent $300.00 on a pair of shoes in a week when monthly bills came due, and they've yet to be paid .. that problem is beyond your kink factor. The heart of the issue would probably not be "I did not give permission for a purchase" quite as much as it would be "our bills are due, what were you thinking?" My point of view would be vanilla and wondering why she made a decision that was detrimental to the household in addition to the lack of communication.

On the other hand, if she glued together all the falls of your flogger ...

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 9

RE: How do you see it? - 3/18/2011 12:01:53 AM

SpiritedRadiance

Posts: 1341
Joined: 3/3/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SillyIllySally

I am a bit new to this side of CM and do not post much so please pardon me if this has been asked before. The following are just my thoughts and not meant to negate anyone elses.
Often the questions I see asked in the forums are relationship based. Of those a lot of them surround an existing or impending commitment/collaring etc. Time and time again the response seems to be some version of "how would you handle it if it were a vanilla relationship". I believe that I understand the underlying reason for these responses. To me though it just doesn't equate. If you take a vanilla relationship and add to it, power exchange, or kink or s&m or any number of those combined is it not then something different? A simple example of what I mean would be a cucumber can be a pickle but once a pickle it can no longer be a cucumber? It seems to me that at least some of these things should be looked at a bit different. The question is then, where is the line? Where do YOU as an individual stop looking at it from a vanilla or standard point of view? If in fact you do at all.

The thing is Kinky or Not Ds or not. the laundry still needs to be done, snuggles still need to be had, and dinner still needs to be cooked.

having the term "vanilla" only seems to complicate peoples grasp on common sense.

Im vanilla and Im Kinky, I never stop being vanilla simply because I became kinky. I still need to do laundry (unless any wonderful Sub is offering) I still need to go to work.

people make the comments what would you do if he was just your boyfriend, or what would you do if he wasnt kinky, because its a valid question. If you wouldnt put up with a vanilla non kinky man cheating on you, why does it change because you slipped on a different label?

Your morals dont change because of your label,

< Message edited by SpiritedRadiance -- 3/18/2011 12:03:10 AM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to SillyIllySally)

Post #: 10

RE: How do you see it? - 3/18/2011 2:57:13 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SillyIllySally

I am a bit new to this side of CM and do not post much so please pardon me if this has been asked before. The following are just my thoughts and not meant to negate anyone elses.
Often the questions I see asked in the forums are relationship based. Of those a lot of them surround an existing or impending commitment/collaring etc. Time and time again the response seems to be some version of "how would you handle it if it were a vanilla relationship". I believe that I understand the underlying reason for these responses. To me though it just doesn't equate. If you take a vanilla relationship and add to it, power exchange, or kink or s&m or any number of those combined is it not then something different? A simple example of what I mean would be a cucumber can be a pickle but once a pickle it can no longer be a cucumber? It seems to me that at least some of these things should be looked at a bit different. The question is then, where is the line? Where do YOU as an individual stop looking at it from a vanilla or standard point of view? If in fact you do at all.

In rightly assuming a D/s relationship is different from a vanilla relationship, you're wrongly assuming that everything must be or has to be different.

The "line" is where the individuals involved in any relationship want it to be. I can't do D/s on its own. My relationships only work if there's room for vanilla sharing as equals, too. The power exchange of D/s is always available but I/we control that need, not it controlling us....

Focus.

_____________________________

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(in reply to SillyIllySally)

Post #: 11

RE: How do you see it? - 3/18/2011 3:35:57 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

I see it pretty much the way others have expressed. Regardless of TYPE of relationship, it is still a relationship and the factors governing it's success or failure, are still pretty much the same.

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to SillyIllySally)

Post #: 12

RE: How do you see it? - 3/18/2011 4:05:17 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

Cheating isn't magically okay because you're kinky.
Neither is screaming at your partner and breaking their nose because someone cut you off in traffic.
Nor is it magically okay to be abusive to people in a service industry.
Nor is ignoring your partner's needs and telling them they don't deserve anything better and they're lucky you will even keep them around.

A relationship is a relationship is a relationship. The same skills apply.

Just as the same carpentry skills apply whether you're building a spanking bench or a coffee table. If you don't have the necessary skills, the final project won't work.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

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(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 13

RE: How do you see it? - 3/18/2011 6:02:15 AM

strangedesire

Posts: 360
Joined: 12/23/2008
Status: offline

BDSM and vanilla relationships are often very different. However, BDSM relationships are very different from each other - and vanilla relationships are very different from each other as well. I think that YOUR kinky relationships are likely closer to your vanilla relationships than they are to MY kinky relationships.

People are different, and so every relationship is different. Regardless, however, it will be a relationship between people, and so the people skills of relationship maintenance still apply.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

If you mean "when do I get to throw the basic common sense precepts of human emotions and building solid foundations for human relationships out the window and replace them with the rules of Twue Dominance", the answer is that you don't get to. D/s relationships are still human relationships, and the basic common sense stuff is still going to be basic common sense. If you want a human relationship to work, you need a solid foundation of trust, honesty, communication skills, personal responsibility, mutual consideration and respect (though possibly different and non-equivalent forms of respect). Being kinky does not make you exempt from this stuff.

In my experience, the domly-doms who try to replace all of the common sense human relationship stuff with stuff they learned from a BDSM porn movie tend to have their relationships implode in drama. I'm not saying you can't also have a D/s, BDSM or TPE relationship with all the rules thereof, but if it is not built on the solid foundation of a human relationship, if you try to replace all the rules of basic human relationships with D/s rather than enhance or supplement them, there's a whole lot of potential for issues.

This.

_____________________________

On that other site as Exegesis.

(in reply to SillyIllySally)

Post #: 14

RE: How do you see it? - 3/18/2011 9:57:39 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

The answer to your question is not entirely.

Some people just happen to add S/m to their bedroom and no power dynamic is really in place. Maybe they just happen to prefer to tie each other up. How they choose to have sex doesn't really change the way they run their relationship outside of the bedroom door. I could write a whole tangent on that, but I'll spare you.

On the authority dynamic part, the folks have still come together and decided what the relationship will be like, at least in the beginning. They know what is acceptable to them or not or evolve to change those things. One of the things that I lean on a great deal is the "what did you sign up for" philosophy. When it comes down to it, you can apply the same to folks who have no power structure in their relationship. Even things like rituals and protocols can be seen to have their non-kink equivalent.

It can be a different way to live, but we still chose it. Choosing the role of 'wife' within the relationship is just like choosing the role of 'sub'. It's just got different parameters.

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RE: How do you see it? - 3/18/2011 10:16:01 AM

sexyred1

Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline

I think the big problem is that some people view BDSM as an entity unto itself, where the normal rules of relationships do not apply.

It seems that many have mythologized being into this "lifestyle" and thus, don't feel they need to utilize the more mundane aspects of life and relationships.

As everyone else said, these are still human interactions and they need to be dealt with on a human level, not as the roles identified with.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 16

RE: How do you see it? - 3/18/2011 11:19:16 AM

lizi

Posts: 4673
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SillyIllySally

The question is then, where is the line? Where do YOU as an individual stop looking at it from a vanilla or standard point of view? If in fact you do at all.

Add me to the group that doesn't look at it differently at all. It seems a bit useless to add my voice to all the others but on the other hand it can sometimes be useful to see that many people hold the same view.

My relationship first and foremost is a relationship- BDSM doesn't come first, the fact that he and I are together does. My partner and I each add a different piece, and have different types of roles, but what we make is this relationship.

I wear a collar 24/7, when we're together I defer to him, when we're apart I do what I think would reflect his wishes. You wouldn't ever really notice anything odd about us because we're just an average everyday couple.

We don't ever stop looking at things from a standard/vanilla point of view. If there are problems we talk, if we need groceries, we get them. If we are planning a trip, we plan it.To me, making our connection more about the kink than about us, seems artificial and kind of backwards.

At the base of things we're together because we choose to be, not because of some kink role, our relationship reflects that. Our connection to each other comes first before anything else we do.

(in reply to SillyIllySally)

Post #: 17

RE: How do you see it? - 3/18/2011 11:52:20 AM

IrishMist

Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SillyIllySally

I am a bit new to this side of CM and do not post much so please pardon me if this has been asked before. The following are just my thoughts and not meant to negate anyone elses.
Often the questions I see asked in the forums are relationship based. Of those a lot of them surround an existing or impending commitment/collaring etc. Time and time again the response seems to be some version of "how would you handle it if it were a vanilla relationship". I believe that I understand the underlying reason for these responses. To me though it just doesn't equate. If you take a vanilla relationship and add to it, power exchange, or kink or s&m or any number of those combined is it not then something different? A simple example of what I mean would be a cucumber can be a pickle but once a pickle it can no longer be a cucumber? It seems to me that at least some of these things should be looked at a bit different. The question is then, where is the line? Where do YOU as an individual stop looking at it from a vanilla or standard point of view? If in fact you do at all.

What you are forgetting is that ALL relationships, no matter what kind they may be, are based on pretty much the SAME things. Adding in kink or dynamics does not change that.

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to SillyIllySally)

Post #: 18

RE: How do you see it? - 3/18/2011 12:33:34 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
It can be a different way to live, but we still chose it. Choosing the role of 'wife' within the relationship is just like choosing the role of 'sub'. It's just got different parameters.

This, I think, is a telling point.

Using myself as an example, when Carol was my wife, then me sleeping with another woman would've been "cheating" -- outside the parameters for husband. Now that I am her master, the rules have changed and so the same act would not be considered "cheating". However, if she were to process it in that way, then nothing would've changed at the pragmatic level. Wife/slave... doesn't matter when things like trust and respect have been eroded. It is this second part where we all say "it's no different than vanilla".

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 19

RE: How do you see it? - 3/18/2011 1:43:53 PM

sweetsub1957

Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/28/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SillyIllySally
If you take a vanilla relationship and add to it, power exchange, or kink or s&m or any number of those combined is it not then something different? A simple example of what I mean would be a cucumber can be a pickle but once a pickle it can no longer be a cucumber? It seems to me that at least some of these things should be looked at a bit different. The question is then, where is the line? Where do YOU as an individual stop looking at it from a vanilla or standard point of view? If in fact you do at all.

It may be a different kind of relationship, but it's still a relationship and has the "relationship stuff" that goes with it. Referring to your example, the cucumber may be called a pickle now, but it's still a pickled cucumber. Myself, I could never have an ongoing D/s situation w/ someone if there weren't a vanilla relationship in place with him/her too. So ours is D/s layered on top of the standard vanilla relationship. Honestly, I'm never consciously aware of when I'm making a vanilla judgment or a D/s one, because I consider ours a unique relationship to us....not in terms of "vanilla" or "kinky"....just "ours." When we discuss things between us, we don't think of it as discussing as Dom and sub, it's discussing as relationship partners.

~sweetsub~

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In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

(in reply to SillyIllySally)

Post #: 20

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