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RE: Maricopa County AZ 40% drop in Illegal Aliens - 3/9/2011 6:15:38 PM

jack8007

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quote:

illegal aliens.

So - how do you know an illegal alien from anybody else?

Let's hear it. Because any AZ resident like yourself has standing to sue any AZ sheriff about this.

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RE: Maricopa County AZ 40% drop in Illegal Aliens - 3/9/2011 7:04:07 PM

popeye1250

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Who cares what their race, ethnicity or eye color is, if they were Swedes I'd be saying "Yumpin' Yiminny get da fuk outda heer, and go bak in you own fuk-kin yard!"
We are either a country of laws or we're not. There's no inbetween.
Mexico is a third world country that is rapidly approaching becomming a fourth world country like Haiti or Somalia. And things aren't going to get better and it's not the job of U.S. Taxpayers to help them get better. We can see how well the tens of billions of Taxpayer dollars to Mexico has done to stop drugs.
The most effective way to close that border is with minefields and Troops in hidden observation posts.
We're doing that now since the early 1950's in S. Korea and they are *our mines* and they're *extremely* effective at area denial. And they are totally "humane" too, you have to break through 2 or three fences or barriers to get into them. If you don't go walking in minefields you won't get blown up will you?
I just don't want to be "friends" with third world countries anymore and more importantly I don't want my government doing so. I contacted my congressman's office to that affect yesterday afternoon.
I have "compassion" for people in my own country not for people in foreign countries.
If you've been helping tens of countries for 40 years and they *still* won't get up off their asses and do for themselves it's way past time to cut off The People's money. Fuck 'em!
Our govt. shouldn't be doing that anyway!

Sherrif Joe Arpaio grew up in Worchester, Mass about 25-30 miles from where I come from.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 3/9/2011 7:05:52 PM >

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RE: Maricopa County AZ 40% drop in Illegal Aliens - 3/9/2011 7:17:13 PM

jack8007

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quote:

country of laws or we're not. There's no inbetween.

Absolutely! So you don't mind if we go through your house & car looking for violations, do you? Gotta make sure we're a country of laws!

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RE: Maricopa County AZ 40% drop in Illegal Aliens - 3/9/2011 7:21:15 PM

KenDckey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jack8007

quote:

illegal aliens.

So - how do you know an illegal alien from anybody else?

Let's hear it. Because any AZ resident like yourself has standing to sue any AZ sheriff about this.

Well since I don't believe in sueing every 10 minutes as you suggest I should. All the illegal aliens I know have told me that they are. Problem is, when reported, ICE refuses to do anything about them. And several of them are on welfare.

The rest is up to the police authority in that jurisdiction. I am not going to go out and start shooting and arresting illegal aliens. They are law breakers, bottom line. Why they are here, Many possibilities. Bottom line, They are law breakers. What part of law breaker or illegal do you fail to understand. There is a procedure for entry into this and every other country (except sections of the vatican) that I have been in or had dealings with. So why are you so supportive of these illegals? Not the legal ones, I am not talking about them. Why are you so supportive of these law breakers?

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RE: Maricopa County AZ 40% drop in Illegal Aliens - 3/9/2011 7:52:33 PM

jack8007

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quote:

since I don't believe in sueing every 10 minutes as you suggest I should.

Do you think anybody else is as charitable as you? The law was passed precisely because Arizonans thought it wasn't enforced.

All the illegal aliens I know have told me that they are.

so would you ask people to find out? Would you expect a person to know if they had grown up in the USA? Would you expect a person to know whether their parents made them citizens? In fact, have you reported these people?

Problem is, when reported, ICE refuses to do anything about them.

Every law enforcement agency has their own priorities. ICE has lots of things to do, and has learned that tips like yours are the least profitable.

And several of them are on welfare.

I wonder about that, but maybe we run in different circles. The illegals I know are afraid to have ANY dealings with the government, and I wonder if you really know what is going on there.

And so did you report that to the DA? Do you know what misprision of a felony is? You sound like a lawbreaker to me.

My point is, there are all sorts of laws, ranging from 1st degree murder to purely technical paper violations. Immigration violations do not require knowledge, are not inherently harmful to any individual, and are regulatory in nature.

Every law enforcement agency has a budget and priorities, and nobody is going to spend a billion dollars to go after the last murderer, let alone the last Canadian. Laws are NEVER a matter of absolutes, even if that zero tolerance thing makes you feel good.

I hear this all the time, Mexicans are destroying our country.   Except for the ones the speaker knows, who are always the salt of the earth. Ben Franklin complained about the Germans, Walt Whitman complained about the Irish, and everybody complained about the Chinese.

Immigration laws define tribes. They are inherently racist.   That is a necessary and not inherently bad thing.   However, like anything else, they can be carried out in evil ways, and I suggest that blaming a tanked economy on the nanny and the boys selling oranges on the freeway is a delusion.    They are here precisely because somebody wants to hire them to make your life easier.   The fact that they can't participate in the formal documented economy is your fault, not theirs.

Having watched this for nearly 30 years, I think most govt agents will concede that the majority of undocumented people do not cross through the hills, but through ports of entry, where lax inspection procedures make it more practical.   So why doesn't CBP check more thoroughly? It's American policy to emphasize this to a certain level, and no more, because there is a point of diminishing returns, and experience has taught CBP that increased enforcement causes other more serious problems.

IOW, when you have responsibility, and are not merely bitching on some forum, the world becomes way more complex.   And honestly, anybody trying to make an honest buck is a minor threat in today's world.

The reality of anti-immigrant rhetoric is nothing more than venting frustration at people that seem repulsive to you because you see dirty people with 6th grade educations picking your lettuce, and forget that your own parents' generation were Okies, and they did just fine kicking Hitler's ass.

There it is.

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RE: Maricopa County AZ 40% drop in Illegal Aliens - 3/9/2011 8:28:31 PM

KenDckey

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Actually I see, well more like think, Tigrenians. I know you probably have no clue who they are, but that is ok. I don't see Mexicans. What I see is that people are entering our country without proper authorization and that they should be sent back to wherever they came from.   That is the job of law enforcement.   Do I report to the DA?   No,   Like I said and apparently you failed to see, I report them to ICE.   It is there job.   They failed to take action.   I, as a citizen, have done my job unless I go into vigilantism, but I am not going to go there.   I don't expect the PD to roam my town's streets looking just for illegals.   I expect them to do what the law requires which is where there is reasonable suspecion then check and if illegal take action.   Not my job, although I have considered joining the Arizona Rangers so it could be at some point at which time I will be appropriately trained by competetant authority.

You seem to be the one so hung up on Mexicans.   My Daughter-in-law was an illegal who now has her green card.   Her father (a professional engineer - not with a 6th grade education as you so eloquently related) was deported even tho he had a nice job working at an Engineering Firm there in SD. My son's are African American (their mother came from Africa and turned in her green card and went back overseas) one of my grand daughters was born in Italy.   My father was a registered native american (I am not)    So, to me with your comments almost exclusively dedicated to peoples of brown skin/Mexicans, it seems that you are the one being racist here.   All I am saying is that those who came to this country illegally need to be sent back and we pay for that service and we aren't getting it.

But that being aside, how do you explain, as I have asked before, the decline in Maricopa County (no Although I was born and raised in Maricopa County I don't live there anymore).

And if you feel that we should just open our borders to anyone that is ok too.   You are entitled to your opinion without being a racist.   Or are you suggesting that we should just open it to Mexicans?   or are you ever gonna respond to the post?

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RE: Maricopa County AZ 40% drop in Illegal Aliens - 3/9/2011 9:07:29 PM

jack8007

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quote:

Actually I see, well more like think, Tigrenians. I know you probably have no clue

They aren't an independent nationality, but an ethnic subset of Ethiopia. They aren't statistically significant in ICE calculations since the Ethiopian problems in the 80s, and most of the are probably left over from that era, and likely have claims to refugee status. I'd be surprised if a significant number were still illegal, since there have been a variety of laws that would benefit them in the last 20 years.

wanna make any other bets about what I don't know?

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RE: Maricopa County AZ 40% drop in Illegal Aliens - 3/9/2011 9:16:29 PM

PilotPTK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

In my opinion you get more flies with honey so I don't think it's the crackdown. It's hard to say if you're not familiar with the place but according to the article it's the following:

"Explanations for the decline in immigrants in Maricopa County jails generally break along political lines.

Immigration-enforcement advocates credit Arizona's track record of controversial legislation, including Senate Bill 1070, and vocal lawmen like Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio for creating an atmosphere that discourages illegal immigrants from staying in Maricopa County.

It seems like a local government's policies and its positions can cause a real drop in the illegal-immigration population," said Steven Camarota, director of research with the Center for Immigration Studies, a research institute that supports strict immigration enforcement. "With all those caveats of 'It's an imperfect measure,' it does seem that the decline in Arizona was much more manifest than elsewhere."

Immigrant-rights advocates, however, point to the economy as a key factor driving illegal immigrants out of Arizona, just as the recession led to a decline in undocumented immigrants around the nation.

Many also believe newer ICE programs such as Secure Communities play a role. The Secure Communities program shares information with the federal government on every suspect who is fingerprinted by a law-enforcement agency in Arizona, which could contribute to an overall increase in deportations from the state. These immigrants are caught by ICE before they are ever booked into county jail on state charges.

More than half of immigrants ICE has deported from Maricopa County through the Secure Communities program either did not commit any serious offenses or did not commit a criminal offense at all, according to the agency's data. ICE policies authorize the removal of those immigrants when resources are available.

"That's of course one of the huge critiques of Secure Communities: a number of people identified through the program have no criminal offense attached to their record, are not charged with any criminal offense or are eventually not convicted of a criminal offense," said Victoria Lopez of the American Civil Liberties Union in Arizona.

Lopez said that Secure Communities likely has contributed to the decline in county-jail bookings.
"Removals are still up, detentions are still up, there are no empty detention beds, immigration courts are at full-plus capacity on their immigration dockets," Lopez said. "It's not as if immigration enforcement is not happening."

Both sides agree, however, that no single factor could account for such a significant drop in the number of ICE detainers, or immigration-status checks, placed on Maricopa County inmates."

I must be reading that wrong.. How is it possible that an "ILLEGAL" Immigrant has not committed any criminal offense.. Perhaps I am mis-understanding the term "ILLEGAL" - although, I don't think that I am....

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RE: Maricopa County AZ 40% drop in Illegal Aliens - 3/9/2011 9:22:54 PM

jack8007

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quote:

"ILLEGAL" Immigrant has not committed any criminal offense

Deportability is a civil issue, not criminal.

Most people do not know that much about the law, and don't understand that there are a variety of routine distinctions that can help keep you folks from confusing murderers with deadbeats.

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RE: Maricopa County AZ 40% drop in Illegal Aliens - 3/9/2011 9:44:46 PM

PilotPTK

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Oh?

I just searched on uscode.house.gov..

8 USC Sec. 1325 02/01/2010

-EXPCITE-
TITLE 8 - ALIENS AND NATIONALITY
CHAPTER 12 - IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY
SUBCHAPTER II - IMMIGRATION
Part VIII - General Penalty Provisions

-HEAD-
Sec. 1325. Improper entry by alien

-STATUTE-
(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection;
misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States
at any time or place other than as designated by immigration
officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration
officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United
States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the
willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or
imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or
imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

One can be imprisioned for 2 years from a civil issue?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jack8007

quote:

"ILLEGAL" Immigrant has not committed any criminal offense

Deportability is a civil issue, not criminal.

Most people do not know that much about the law, and don't understand that there are a variety of routine distinctions that can help keep you folks from confusing murderers with deadbeats.

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RE: Maricopa County AZ 40% drop in Illegal Aliens - 3/9/2011 9:46:22 PM

jack8007

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That isnt deportability, it's illegal entry. Check sec 1227.

< Message edited by jack8007 -- 3/9/2011 9:47:29 PM >

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RE: Maricopa County AZ 40% drop in Illegal Aliens - 3/9/2011 9:56:05 PM

PilotPTK

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The VAST Majority that are here illegally, ENTERED illegally.. Hence, Per my original post, they HAVE committed a criminal offense.

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RE: Maricopa County AZ 40% drop in Illegal Aliens - 3/9/2011 10:14:23 PM

jack8007

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quote:

Tigrenians

So how many of these people have told you they are illegal?   Have you looked at anybody's papers? Would you know what to look for?

One of the biggest reasons local cops don't usually want to get into this is that the immigration code is pretty complex, and interpretation policies are federal, and change frequently. Locals rarely want another unfunded mandate.   If you think a cop is going to learn more than to recognize a dozen documents, you're kidding yourself.   And I would strongly recommend you not get involved in a private organization, because there is incredible civil liability.

I don't feel obliged to explain Maricopa county jail populations. You asked people's thoughts, I told you I bet it was tied mostly to economics - and part of that is likely to be purely local phenomena, like releasing people or not arresting them because of budget issues.   If the locals have no explanation, do you really expect more information from random people on a forum?

Compliance with bureaucracy is not a matter of morality - unless you are determined that if you have to stand in line, by god so will everybody else.

And of course if you don't think the immigration debate is about Mexicans, you're deranged. Yes, there are a lot of overstayed Canucks, but they generally blend in, and aren't easy targets.

One of the biggest illusions, I believe, is that most illegals are border jumpers. True, the majority of the ones who are caught are. But the ones who come thru the port are by & large not caught. Are they harmful? Any more harmful than the illegal entries? The essential complaint of harms are economic and problematic. The fact is that if they weren;t getting paid, they wouldn't be here. That means some Americans want them here, and usually for economic reasons. That usually means you are benefiting from it. The theory is of course that a closed economy is better. Having watched the Soviets, I doubt it. I suspect it's more an accounting issue, and it might be better to issue IDs and visas and tax people.

I do not believe in open borders.   I believe that demographic policy is intimately tied to economic policy, and we aren't very clear about either, and it makes no sense to vilify the people who are its targets.   Just because you have to deport somebody doesn't mean you have to be an asshole about it.    I think that by and large the Republican right is venting their frustrations on the people least responsible, when in fact the largest cause of our problems is that the Republicans rushed off recklessly into a couple of wars without thinking what they were doing, and simaltaneously whored themselves out to Wall Street, and the combined factors of course nearly pitched us into another Great Depression.   If we want to vent, we should be looking at the people in charge, not the ones in the bilges of society.

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RE: Maricopa County AZ 40% drop in Illegal Aliens - 3/9/2011 10:17:24 PM

jack8007

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quote:

VAST Majority that are here illegally, ENTERED illegally..

and you know this how?

Let's put it this way - DHS doesn't know. I kinda doubt you do.

Let's assume that it could be known. Do you believe that people should be criminally prosecuted for something a general group of people did? If not, I think your point is irrelevant.

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RE: Maricopa County AZ 40% drop in Illegal Aliens - 3/9/2011 10:26:42 PM

PilotPTK

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Maybe I'm being simple minded, but from perspective there are two ways to end up classified as an illegal alien
1) ENTER illegally
2) ENTER legally and then overstay your visa (also illegal)

Are you aware of another way to end up here as an illegal alien?

As for your 'general group of people' theory - you're right.. If a general group of people start murdering and raping, we shouldn't prosecute them because they're a general group.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jack8007

quote:

VAST Majority that are here illegally, ENTERED illegally..

and you know this how?

Let's put it this way - DHS doesn't know. I kinda doubt you do.

Let's assume that it could be known. Do you believe that people should be criminally prosecuted for something a general group of people did? If not, I think your point is irrelevant.

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RE: Maricopa County AZ 40% drop in Illegal Aliens - 3/9/2011 10:45:40 PM

jack8007

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quote:

Maybe I'm being simple minded, but from perspective there are two ways to end up classified as an illegal alien
1) ENTER illegally
2) ENTER legally and then overstay your visa (also illegal)

The basic categories are set out in 8 USC 1227.   Take a quick read and tell me how many you think there are. Don't fool yourself by looking at the numbered sections, ask yourself for example, how many ways can a person become present without admission or parole?

Then it starts getting complicated - what is a person along any of the ways?   Any process started and not finished? Because laymen in any legal process frequently quit along the way, for any number of reasons.

What is a person who sneaks across the border without knowing he is a US citizen? What is a person who is eligible but hasn't filed the papers?   Those are easy questions.   The bureaucracy deals with a lot of people, and maybe 80% are those I would classify as easy - in large part because nobody looks real closely.   And of course the bureaucracy never sees a whole lot more.

one of the things you have to bear in mind is that the code attempts to deal with and define every person in the USA, and every person that might come to the USA, in an administrative, not common law structure.   In my experience, it's pretty common to encounter people who are mistaken about their status, or misunderstand what they are allowed to do or not - and the simple categorization of all of these people as knowing criminals is plain ignorant.

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RE: Maricopa County AZ 40% drop in Illegal Aliens - 3/9/2011 11:18:57 PM

PilotPTK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jack8007
What is a person who sneaks across the border without knowing he is a US citizen?

It makes him or her a person who snuck accross the border. In other words, a criminal.

quote:

What is a person who is eligible but hasn't filed the papers?

Indolent. If they're here on an unexpired and valid visa.
Indolent and a criminal if they're here on no visa or an expired one.

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RE: Maricopa County AZ 40% drop in Illegal Aliens - 3/9/2011 11:50:03 PM

popeye1250

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We need to change the law to make it a felony to be in the U.S. illegally.
I talked with Congressman-Elect Tim Scott about that and a few other things regarding our lack of border security and he said he agreed and was also in favor of a five to ten year moratorium on "all" immigration.
And another guy talked to him about his daughter who was maimed by a DWI Mexican driver who was given BAIL and of course absconded!
I talked to my state Rep. about that 4 or 5 years ago and he agreed that illegal aliens shouldn't be given bail in this state anymore. He told me that they have a default rate in this state of, "North of 95%."
And there was a letter writing campaign to the Catholic church telling them to either stop and cease and desist in any help for illegal aliens and telling them to tell the Cardinals and Bishops to put a sock in it or they could expect a lot less donations. I think it worked because I haven't seen the Bishop on the news for a few years now. In my letter I said; "Gee, I can't seem to find my checkbook!"
No country can have 30 million illegal aliens in it and a few million more each year and survive.
The problem is exacerbated by "giving" them things, food, clothing, shelter, medical care that taxpayers are paying for with money *borrowed* from China and that (they) can't get.
Last I heard illegals cost us all $113 Billion last year and that's up from $93 Billion 2 or 3 years ago.
We need to stop the gravy train.

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RE: Maricopa County AZ 40% drop in Illegal Aliens - 3/9/2011 11:59:40 PM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jack8007

quote:

illegal aliens.

So - how do you know an illegal alien from anybody else?

Let's hear it. Because any AZ resident like yourself has standing to sue any AZ sheriff about this.

Im not an Az resident. And you know an illegal alien from anybody else by asking for their FEDERALLY required documentation. Duhhh.

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RE: Maricopa County AZ 40% drop in Illegal Aliens - 3/10/2011 12:13:11 AM

PilotPTK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jack8007
Because laymen in any legal process frequently quit along the way, for any number of reasons.
...
In my experience, it's pretty common to encounter people who are mistaken about their status, or misunderstand what they are allowed to do or not - and the simple categorization of all of these people as knowing criminals is plain ignorant.

Just curious, If I begin the process of training for and applying for a CPL (Concealed Pistol License) and then quit along the way (for any number of reasons, of course).. Would it be ignorant the categorize me as a knowing criminal if I bought a pistol from a back door dealer and carried it everywhere I went?

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