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Future of Solar? Maybe not..... - 2/10/2011 10:29:50 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline 		Short and sweet..Much the way I describe myself!

Does anyone have information on this. I was looking for the efficiency ratings of solar panels and for what's new to come in the future and I found this...only a few things that lead to it as well.

One website talks about it coming soon sorta but there's no updates..another site speaks a little more about Mr. Marks and yet another link leads to a question being posed on yahoo with subsequent links leading to most of what I have already.

Thinking of contacting the one site to see what they have to say.

http://www.polar-solar.com/lumeloi-solutions.html

This site looks a "little" uhhh unbelievable..This is the first thing that I ran upon so naturally I was a little skeptical about the idea being real but it looks like the guy was a real genius.
http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/new/nsolcel.htm

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CTSOS/message/1072

Here's another link on the man himself if anyone's interested.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/31/business/31marks.html

< Message edited by Icarys -- 2/10/2011 10:35:42 AM >

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RE: Future of Solar? Maybe not..... - 2/10/2011 5:16:42 PM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		Given that the first mention of Lumeloid was nearly 20 years ago, I'd guess that A.) it's bullshit, B.) there is some technical problem that prevents it from being marketable, or C.) it's being supressed by energy traders, the nuclear industry, and/or anyone else who has vested interests that cheap solar energy would be inconvenient w/regards to.

Take your pick.

(in reply to Icarys)
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RE: Future of Solar? Maybe not..... - 2/10/2011 6:40:30 PM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		http://www.pvsquared.coop/

shameless plug.

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RE: Future of Solar? Maybe not..... - 2/10/2011 6:50:42 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Given that the first mention of Lumeloid was nearly 20 years ago, I'd guess that A.) it's bullshit, B.) there is some technical problem that prevents it from being marketable, or C.) it's being supressed by energy traders, the nuclear industry, and/or anyone else who has vested interests that cheap solar energy would be inconvenient w/regards to.

Take your pick.


Yeah I've taken all of those into consideration..The initial skeptical part was mostly against the poorly done website. Once I read this guys accomplishments I didn't have an issue with it as much.

I'm shooting for the other possibilities. I've contacted http://www.polar-solar.com/lumeloi-solutions.html so we'll see where that goes...Here's a little logic to it all.

It was around 20 years ago but there may be some truth that the energy company tried to buy the guy out of his patents as the website states. If so then why pay for something they didn't think would work...Things happen along the way though..I know this..Something looks promising and once you get going, it all starts to looks a little less than kosher..except when your talking handing over big bucks as a corporation of that size..I'm betting there was plenty of science behind the claims shown.

Now we have this company who states they are developing the technology but nothing and I mean absolutely nothing is on the website about it. Maybe they want to keep it secret, who knows.

My take while we're talking taking all things into consideration is..It may very well be a decoy/deadend for people trying to investigate..Dummy site that dead-ends into no info, no return contacts or just to say hey..Yes we have it but it's gonna take awhile to get it working..as in not in your lifetime...Too early to tell so before I go to those possibilities as truth. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now.

I did email them asking for information but I really don't expect a response..We'll see.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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RE: Future of Solar? Maybe not..... - 2/10/2011 7:20:10 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

http://www.pvsquared.coop/

shameless plug.

This is where you work or is this your company..Just curious..Either way is cool with me.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to GreedyTop)
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RE: Future of Solar? Maybe not..... - 2/10/2011 7:27:47 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline 		Just as a side not here:

If companies like, let's say large corp's, were to actually buy new and promising tech up so they could then shelve it..Well as far as I'm concerned, that would be treasonous. That goes for anyone who helped them along the way as well. The practice of doing such a thing which in turn potentially could not just hinder progress for our nation but for the entire world is bullshit.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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RE: Future of Solar? Maybe not..... - 2/11/2011 3:13:51 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		The front page description of the solar film is pure BS. I think its likely the whole thing is a scam.

There are some very promising low cost solar power technologies. For instance:
http://www.oksolar.com/roof/

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RE: Future of Solar? Maybe not..... - 2/11/2011 9:14:47 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

http://www.pvsquared.coop/

shameless plug.

This is where you work or is this your company..Just curious..Either way is cool with me.

Even if you had been only partially conscious for the past 3 years you'd know she works for a hotel.


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RE: Future of Solar? Maybe not..... - 2/11/2011 11:02:15 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

Even if you had been only partially conscious for the past 3 years you'd know she works for a hotel.

I know this is a drive-by snark attack but I'll answer anyway.

What a reasonably intelligent person might have thought also would be that..Hey, maybe this guy doesn't pay attention to her posts most days or maybe he's conscious of other things that he finds much more interesting than those types of details usually...

I'm less occupied with people in general than you might be even if I do come to interact on occasion..now if you want to talk about science, nature, animals and a number of subjects outside of "self" then I'm usually interested.

Hippies just aint what they "used" to be.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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RE: Future of Solar? Maybe not..... - 2/11/2011 11:04:24 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

The front page description of the solar film is pure BS. I think its likely the whole thing is a scam.

I'm not sure how you could make a blanket assessment as if it's the truth without at least more info..Skepticism sure, I have my own.

Hopefully you're not going to say you're in this field and have worked with the late Dr. Marks.


< Message edited by Icarys -- 2/11/2011 11:20:53 AM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Future of Solar? Maybe not..... - 2/12/2011 2:17:26 AM   
shallowdeep


Posts: 343
Joined: 9/1/2006
From: California
Status: offline 		I skimmed some of the relevant patents:
4,445,050
4,574,161
5,229,624

The patents seem rather vague, the efficiency claims are not carefully justified, and it's pretty obvious nothing working had been produced. But the basic idea seems to be a rectifying antenna, and that's not without some potential merit. Rectennas work reasonably well at microwave frequencies. Scaling them to optical frequencies as an alternative to photovoltaics has a bunch of issues, though… and the patents didn't seem to address them. Or did so in fishy ways. The claim of 80% efficiency made on the sparse Polar-Solar technology page would apply only to the power coupling between the antenna and the incident radiation – it doesn't address getting usable, rectified electricity out, which is ultimately what matters. It also would be limited to the frequencies the antenna was tuned to, which sort of defeats the advantage. Even single-junction photovoltaics can be pretty efficient when exclusively collecting photons near their band gap energy. The problem is that sunlight isn't monochromatic.

Basically, I wouldn't expect to see anything come directly from the old 1980s patents or the content-light site purporting to be working on them. But, as I mentioned, the idea of rectennas may have something to it and it remains an area where there's some active research. Specifically, the Idaho National Laboratory was working on a design for IR light. They got the antenna coupling down in 2008, but it turns out building efficient THz rectifiers isn't easy. They were estimating more like 46% efficiency for IR after everything was put together. That could still be impressive for something that might end up being easier (and cheaper) to manufacture than photovoltaics, though. The National Renewable Energy Lab also looked into the technology in 2002.

Of course, this sort of thing would have to compete with existing photovoltaic tech, including thin film implementations, which is still getting cheaper.

(in reply to Icarys)
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RE: Future of Solar? Maybe not..... - 2/12/2011 6:41:02 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

The front page description of the solar film is pure BS. I think its likely the whole thing is a scam.

I'm not sure how you could make a blanket assessment as if it's the truth without at least more info..Skepticism sure, I have my own.

Hopefully you're not going to say you're in this field and have worked with the late Dr. Marks.


No but I do have a very highly tuned bullshit detector.

It's possible they are pushing nano scale optical rectennas but why avoid all the really great buzzwords? But as the above poster pointed out that tech is no where near the efficiency of standard photovoltaics and are unlikely to reach even those levels any time soon.

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RE: Future of Solar? Maybe not..... - 2/12/2011 9:18:34 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		FR

They seem to be stressing polarizing the light. Maybe I'm not right on top of things, but I don't see how that could help efficiency. The only way polarization would have a positive effect would be in a technology that reverses the process used in LCD technology. An LCD cell works by polarizing light, and then twisting it to cause the polarizing filter to block it. That technology used in reverse, for example if light could be made to fight the twisting might someday be used to produce a voltage. This would be like a piezoelectric effect in a way, apply voltage - it moves, move it - it produces voltage. Anything else, polarizing light just blocks some of it. A polarizing filter either reflects or absorbs the light it does not admit.

In the simplest of terms, a photovoltaic works by forcibly knocking electrons out of their orbit onto some sort of collector. An electrical connection provides new electrons, and thus becomes the positive terminal. In a sense, this is brute force. And it works better and better with more light, until it burns up.

And what I say now may be unexpected, but photovoltaics are almost a waste of time. What do we really need electricity for anyway ? I'm not being flippant, but if you boil it down, as soon as you get electricity, what do you do ? You convert it to other forms of energy. Whatever turns the generators at PASNE or TVA, wherever is torsional force. What do you do with the electricity they produce ? One of the thing is to run a motor, converting it back to torsional force.

Right now the best thing going is to store the electricity, but what if someone thought outside the box and figured out more direct ways to store and use the energy ?

The only things that really need electricity are semiconductor devices. There are other ways to refrigerate your food, heat your house, even to illuminate it. In the future, we might find that we have wasted a hell of alot of copper. Many give lip service to understanding that all usable energy on this planet comes from the sun. Start your car, all cars are technically solar powered. The sun provided the energy to bake those old trees and dinosaur bones or whatever fell and got swept under the dirt, into petroleum. Windmills ? What do you think makes the air move ?

In the next decade, photovoltaics might double or triple in efficiency. Then what ? They still won't be the preemininent power source unless waterfalls stop falling, or we run out of coal and oil.

It boils down to numbers. Proposed BS is proposed BS. How many lumens/watts of solar energy vs how many volts and amps of output ? Show me, with a simple voltmeter and ammeter. Show me how the strength of the incident (sun)light is measured. When your numbers beat the other guy's you win.

Solar power would be great, a nice backup etc. Get off the grid maybe. But it's not going to see much in the way of advancement as long as there is something left to sell.

T^T

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Future of Solar? Maybe not..... - 2/12/2011 2:28:26 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

I skimmed some of the relevant patents:
4,445,050
4,574,161
5,229,624

The patents seem rather vague, the efficiency claims are not carefully justified, and it's pretty obvious nothing working had been produced. But the basic idea seems to be a rectifying antenna, and that's not without some potential merit. Rectennas work reasonably well at microwave frequencies. Scaling them to optical frequencies as an alternative to photovoltaics has a bunch of issues, though… and the patents didn't seem to address them. Or did so in fishy ways. The claim of 80% efficiency made on the sparse Polar-Solar technology page would apply only to the power coupling between the antenna and the incident radiation – it doesn't address getting usable, rectified electricity out, which is ultimately what matters. It also would be limited to the frequencies the antenna was tuned to, which sort of defeats the advantage. Even single-junction photovoltaics can be pretty efficient when exclusively collecting photons near their band gap energy. The problem is that sunlight isn't monochromatic.


I agree, they are vague but I suspect they are so for very good reason and isn't that somewhat typical for most patents that start as ideas?

The 80% or so claim was originally stated by Dr. Marks himself but again as with other ideas, they're often much less than the original projected outcomes.

It is true that the end result of the idea is what mostly matters but the fact that an area that usually might cause great losses to the end may be brought up to higher standards would no doubt change the potential end efficiency itself. It's all relative.


quote:

Basically, I wouldn't expect to see anything come directly from the old 1980s patents or the content-light site purporting to be working on them. But, as I mentioned, the idea of rectennas may have something to it and it remains an area where there's some active research. Specifically, the Idaho National Laboratory was working on a design for IR light. They got the antenna coupling down in 2008, but it turns out building efficient THz rectifiers isn't easy. They were estimating more like 46% efficiency for IR after everything was put together. That could still be impressive for something that might end up being easier (and cheaper) to manufacture than photovoltaics, though. The National Renewable Energy Lab also looked into the technology in 2002.

Of course, this sort of thing would have to compete with existing photovoltaic tech, including thin film implementations, which is still getting cheaper.


Thanks for the links..I'm trying to learn as much as possible about solar for my move off the grid so some of this has been side reading and isn't really needed but...I love the potential that I see for this technology. It's fascinating.

The last link for potentially shorter time practical applications is really exciting.





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submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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RE: Future of Solar? Maybe not..... - 2/12/2011 2:52:49 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline 		On Nanosolar:

Trying my best to wrap my head around a process where an inkjet printer has the capabilities of printing solar panels and I'm having issues...I'm familiar with many types of inks and printers being in the business that I am and have never heard of such a thing.

This makes the potential for solar sheets to sell for as low as .30cents a watt..WOW. That comes close to rivaling commercial power companies in cost per watt!

Edited: Here's a link...Simple and efficient...I see now.
http://inhabitat.com/printable-solar-cells-demonstrated/


< Message edited by Icarys -- 2/12/2011 3:01:57 PM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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RE: Future of Solar? Maybe not..... - 2/12/2011 3:18:09 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

On Nanosolar:

Trying my best to wrap my head around a process where an inkjet printer has the capabilities of printing solar panels and I'm having issues...I'm familiar with many types of inks and printers being in the business that I am and have never heard of such a thing.

This makes the potential for solar sheets to sell for as low as .30cents a watt..WOW. That comes close to rivaling commercial power companies in cost per watt!

Edited: Here's a link...Simple and efficient...I see now.
http://inhabitat.com/printable-solar-cells-demonstrated/


People have been tinkering with that sort of thing for a while. The problem is the resulting solar cells are much lower efficiency than those built with standard technology. Depending on how much power you need and how much sunlight you get they might work for you but...

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RE: Future of Solar? Maybe not..... - 2/12/2011 4:31:24 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

That comes close to rivaling commercial power companies in cost per watt!

Misspoke here..Got my KW and Watts mixed up from my recent reads..


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submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Future of Solar? Maybe not..... - 2/12/2011 7:00:21 PM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Just as a side not here:

If companies like, let's say large corp's, were to actually buy new and promising tech up so they could then shelve it..Well as far as I'm concerned, that would be treasonous. That goes for anyone who helped them along the way as well. The practice of doing such a thing which in turn potentially could not just hinder progress for our nation but for the entire world is bullshit.

Then you haven't been paying attention, profits = patriotism.

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Future of Solar? Maybe not..... - 2/13/2011 4:38:03 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

Then you haven't been paying attention


That's what a lot of people here would like to believe but it just isn't the case.

quote:

profits = patriotism.


Yes yes capitalism but in cases like this and many others..When it's "allowed" to run rampant..it works in reverse...it shows a lack of patriotism.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to xssve)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Future of Solar? Maybe not..... - 2/15/2011 1:30:30 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline 		Here's another potentially great technology that puts today's standard to shame.

They'll be in Las Vegas, Nevada on the 4-6 of April, 2011.

http://www.zenithsolar.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O47RiYJiKI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8mXDsGiiu4&feature=related



< Message edited by Icarys -- 2/15/2011 1:35:16 PM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 20
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