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Gun Culture, US versus Europe. - 1/8/2011 6:16:37 AM   
nicki1259


Posts: 5
Joined: 1/8/2011
Status: offline 		NOitce a post on who was more law abiding, UK versus US and thread went into issues on guns.

I don't know European Laws, the culture or other issues so I am not going to comment on Europe. I will comment on my country however.

The United States does not have uniform gun laws and right now with the US Supreme court ruling that the 2nd amendment is an individual right and that Americans have a right to keep and bear loaded arms for self defense, gun laws that conflict with our fundamental rights will be modified or flat out ruled unconstitutional.

The two Supreme Court cases, "Heller and MacDonald" involved the handgun bans in Washington DC and Chicago Illonis. Both cities lost bigtime.

Contrary to what you may have read in the major media, the Supreme Court substantially ruled that the 2nd amendment is an individual right.

Alan Gura LLP, the winning lawyer in both of those cases working with the Second Amendment Foundation has filed numerous lawsuits all over the country and within the next 2 to 5 years, there will be substantial changes in gun laws in the few states that still violate the 2nd amendment rights of law abiding Americans.

It is up to the government to show a compelling need for any gun law.

Gun rights will be treated to the same constitutional protections as say freedom of speech. Feel good laws will not pass constitutional review.

The US Bill of Rights doesn't grant rights, what it does is recognize natural rights that people always had. Our government gets it's authority from the "Consent of the Governed".

It is called a "Bill of Rights", not a "Bill of Needs" for a reason.

The United States is a "Republic", not a "Democracy". The British are "Subjects" of the Crown. Americans are not "SUBJECTS", we are "FREE and SOVEREIGN".

A "Free person" has a different view that a "Subject person".

It is not up to me to justify why I need to do anything, it is up to the government to show a compelling need why it needs to infringe on my rights or anyone else's.

The United States unfortunately is not a Libertarian Paradise, we have the government involved in too many areas of our personal lives where it has no business being.

In that respect, Europeans are definitely more Free.

America was founded by the Gun. Culturally we view surrendering our guns as surrendering our freedoms. When the British tried to take our arms in 1775 at Lexington and Concord, we started the American Revolution.

That being said, we are not totally INSANE and commonsense gun laws will survive court challenges.

Laws restricting access to guns by criminals, the mentally insane will survive court challenge and the US Supreme court wrote that in both the Heller and MacDonald case.

Laws that infringe on our ability to have "functional arms" with "functional" being defined as "Loaded" will not stand court challenge.

The US Supreme Court did say that gun rights could be restricted in "Sensitive Zones" such as Schools, Airports, Jails, government bodies. There is ongoing legal cases to determine how expansive "Sensitive Zones" can be.

The right to have a loaded gun in your home is now settled as a FUNDAMENTAL CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT.

The courts will rule that we have a right to carry loaded arms, states will probably be allowed to regulate how they are carried, either openly, concealed or both. They will not be allowed to ban or restrict carry to the point that you can't carry a loaded gun for self defense.

Handguns are CONSTITUTIONALLY protected and the courts will probably rule that rifles, shotguns also are protected and that will include the EVIL SEMI AUTO ASSAULT RIFLES, as I call them, the EBR's(Evil Black Rifles).

In America our crime rate is at an all time low while our gun ownership rate is now at an all time high.

Americans are buying alot of handguns and alot of so called "Assault Rifles". Ever since the Federal Assault weapon ban expired in 2004, gun manufacturer's can't keep up with Market demand.

Funny thing, crime has been consistently dropping since the ban expired.

40 out of 50 states now recognize that people have a right to carry loaded guns for self protection and will issue permits to carry concealed guns to anyone who passes a criminal background check and takes required training. Average training is about 8 hours.

We expect that number to jump to 41 shortly now that Wisconsin just elected a Governor who will sign right to carry legislation.

Back in 1987, only 17 states would issue permits to carry concealed weapons.

Much of our gun crime is a by product of our drug prohibition. Legalization of drugs would devastate the black market and would significantly reduce crime since addicts wouldn't have to steal as much to support their addictions.

The United States spends close to 1 trillion dollars per year being the world policeman.

Perhaps if we pulled our troops back to America, then cut that Federal Spending and reduced taxes accordingly, we could jump start our economy, create jobs and opportunity and that would again help reduce crime.

One thing I know for sure in the US. If somehow "Sharia Law" became the civil code here in the US, we have the means to change that by force.

Democracy is a great form of government until the majority votes to destroy your rights. I prefer a Republic where my rights are not subject to majority rule tyranny.

Enough said, I am sure many of you have your heads spinning by now

Nicki



Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Gun Culture, US versus Europe. - 1/8/2011 6:32:04 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		Hi, nicki.  Welcome to collarme and congratulations on your first post.

I have a hard time with "The United States unfortunately is not a Libertarian Paradise, we have the government involved in too many areas of our personal lives where it has no business being.

In that respect, Europeans are definitely more Free."

My impression is that Europeans had stronger governments and fewer individual rights than Americans.  Obviously that was the case in Eastern Europe before the Iron Wall fell, but I think that Europeans will view the government as more of a kindly presence than we do in America.

"Perhaps if we pulled our troops back to America, then cut that Federal Spending and reduced taxes accordingly, we could jump start our economy, create jobs and opportunity and that would again help reduce crime. "

Interesting.  Forty years ago, it was a given that "War is good for the economy".  The idea was that government spending was a good thing and that war created a reason for doing so.  Now the general truism, which you give, is that government spending is bad for the economy.  The reason of course is that the spending itself is good, but that the resultant increase in either taxes or the deficit more than offsets it.

Again,

Edited to add:

"Handguns are CONSTITUTIONALLY protected and the courts will probably rule that rifles, shotguns also are protected and that will include the EVIL SEMI AUTO ASSAULT RIFLES, as I call them, the EBR's(Evil Black Rifles).

In America our crime rate is at an all time low while our gun ownership rate is now at an all time high.

Americans are buying alot of handguns and alot of so called "Assault Rifles". Ever since the Federal Assault weapon ban expired in 2004, gun manufacturer's can't keep up with Market demand.

Funny thing, crime has been consistently dropping since the ban expired."

I'm not an expert in gun rights, but pistols are non-assault rifles were in existence when the Second Amendment was created and as such are clearly addressed by it.  But a fair case could be made that assault rifles were not addressed by it, and should not be included with it.  The court would then have the tricky job of interpreting the intent of the Second Amendment and applying that imputed intent to assault rifles.

I'm not so sure that crime is at an all-time low.  Please give a link to support that statement.  Since drug use has been increasing over the past few decades IIRC, then your statement that crime is associated with illegal drug use (which I agree with BTW) would conflict with the assertion of crime being at an all time low due to gun ownership.

I have a hard time believing that gunmakers cannot keep up with demand.  A manufacturer shouldn't need more than a year or so to expand production to meet an increase in demand.


< Message edited by DarkSteven -- 1/8/2011 6:47:30 AM >

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to nicki1259)
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RE: Gun Culture, US versus Europe. - 1/8/2011 6:45:34 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		The United States is a "Republic", not a "Democracy". The British are "Subjects" of the Crown. Americans are not "SUBJECTS", we are "FREE and SOVEREIGN"./snip

Precisely.    !!

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Gun Culture, US versus Europe. - 1/8/2011 7:03:27 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

wow lot to comment on in your post!

people do not understand how gov or law works.

first no group of people can lawfully rule over another group of people UNLESS the group consents to be ruled.

The second you vote you nailed your coffin shut that you are a "club" member and agree to come under a democracy.

If you have coast to coast people and courts to settle controversy you have a pure republic.

If you have a quorum (3 people or more) you have a democracy.

Why because 2 people can join together and vote to beat up, take all the stuff, and even kill the 1 person.  (and make it a law so its legal I might add)   The democracy is in the JURY!  In a republic all decisions are made by a JURY and the JURY IS THE COURT!  Not some dead man priest in a black robe! 

People think that a pure republic without gubmint is anarchy when in fact we are kissing anarchy right now in this country because of our failure to understand the importance of the responsibilities of the judicial and the oath of office's they take to PROTECT the constitution.

Are they protecting your rights when they tazer you for not kissing a cops ass and sucking his dick on the side of the street during a traffic stop?  I dont think so.

How can they do that?  How can they attack you and get away with it?

They can do it because they have an ownership interest in you!  Mom registered your body, (BC) you registered your labor, (SSN), you registered your car, you asked permission to drive and by doing so commingled your private right to travel with their commercial authority and you gave all your rights away.

In the old days in england those nasty aristocracy (evil bastards) types created the system of freedom.   A slave had iron around his ankles and was "UNENFRANCHISED" (not in the slave club) so he had to wear bracelets but then being the nice kings that they are they told "Mr." slave he could be free and the king would grant him "rights", "privileges", and "immunities", if he was a good boy and SWORE ALLEGIANCE" to the LAND-LORD vis King!  Now the slave was enfranchised (a DOMESTICATED slave) where the shackles are removed from his ankles and replaced with "BOND COLLAR" around his neck!

remember? "I pledge allegiance to the flag....united states and for which it stands"  But then I digress.....

People need to realise that everything in their lives have been hypothecated, monetized and hence commercialized through CONTRACT and THAT is how they LEGALLY but not lawfully encroach on your rights.

That said in the strict sense IF they make any rules about "ARMS" NOT guns, what so ever except those exersized by another sovereign by seizen (one of the people) through trespass they are infringing on your right to own and bear ARMS!

England has camera up on every corner just as we are getting today, and those cameras always fail during gubmint operations like 7/7.  LOL

Anyway to cut to the chase, we have only a couple choices.  Either we deal with the anarchist crap they call law and abject corruption in our corporate in business courts or we can go back to strictly COURTS BY JURY, which was its ORIGINAL intent!

Courts by jury keeps the law in the hands of the people NOT the corporate thugs.

Fix that you fix the whole damn system in one clean sweep!

Oh and the united states is not a republic it is a league of friendship of the states and states are democracies et al

one individual or individuals severely are the republic.




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to nicki1259)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Gun Culture, US versus Europe. - 1/8/2011 7:09:05 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

The United States is a "Republic", not a "Democracy". The British are "Subjects" of the Crown. Americans are not "SUBJECTS", we are "FREE and SOVEREIGN"./snip
Precisely.    !!



yeh but their evil ALL CAP TWIN that is on the drivers license and birth cert etc etc etvc IS  "subject of" !!

Read the 14th amendment!

quote:




All persons (persons not people!) born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.


Section. 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.


Now if they were all kings it would be presumed by the courts that full rights through transmutation applied to the fiction as well as the living body, but that only works for the monarchy and pals in the BIG club!

If you are not in the big club it does not work that way.  They haul your ass into court and because your "COMMERCIAL" account name SOUNDS the same as your name when they call it out you now transmutate into the account.  That is how they make you a surety! LOL

I know I know it sounds insane, well its their rules, its the product of many of aristocratic fucking inbreeding.










< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/8/2011 7:14:09 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Gun Culture, US versus Europe. - 1/8/2011 7:13:26 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		so, any jury case thats been decided is okey dokey, and bench cases not.

ja, well there are some thirty death row inmates in texas recently that might want to review your legal acumen 

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Gun Culture, US versus Europe. - 1/8/2011 7:16:47 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

so, any jury case thats been decided is okey dokey, and bench cases not.

ja, well there are some thirty death row inmates in texas recently that might want to review your legal acumen 


Good morning Ja Ja Gabore.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Gun Culture, US versus Europe. - 1/8/2011 7:19:02 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		those were advisory jury's, another long conversation I had with the state attorney and he was not real happy that I knew.

The only lawful jury on the north american continent is a FULLY EMPOWERED jury not the advisory jury's they use in their "administrative" NOT judicial courts.

Thats right and for once I agree though I am sure not what you expected.

advisory jury's should be absolutely banned and no judge ANYWHERE should ever be allowed to enter in a judgment.  EVER!

the constitution says JURY!  That is the reason why.  Keep the law in the hands of the people not the fucking crooks!

If the law is toO <corrected just for term! LOL complicated for the ordinary man then its bullshit because people have better things to do than be attorneys just so they can fucking live a normal life.





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 1/8/2011 7:23:03 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Gun Culture, US versus Europe. - 1/8/2011 7:24:33 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

wow lot to comment on in your post!

people do not understand how gov or law works.

first no group of people can lawfully rule over another group of people UNLESS the group consents to be ruled.



If that's how government or law works, then add me to the group of people that do not understand.

By your definition, every singe dictatorship is unlawful.

Also, consent is not a yes-or-no thing.  There are certain laws that I sure as hell never consented to but apply to me anyway.  I have agreed to the SYSTEM of laws, under which I cast a vote for or against those people who got elected to represent my interests and occasionally do so.

Your nice, neat simple statement does not begin to address the complexities of our system.



_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Gun Culture, US versus Europe. - 1/8/2011 7:27:55 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Consent?

To what fluoridated water?  (which they do not do to the water in EU)

To TSA gropes?

To water boarding?

To warrant-less wire taps?

To indefinite detention?

To corporate personhood?


When did I consent to this?



(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Gun Culture, US versus Europe. - 1/8/2011 7:32:36 AM   
TotalDiscipline


Posts: 225
Joined: 5/5/2010
Status: offline 		The country I live in, The Netherlands, don't really seems to have a gun culture.
Some criminals, the police and the army have guns. To get in a shooting club you need to be checked and i think you even have to shoot for several years with an air gun. The weapons you can get are very light.
Not sure how many people are in shooting clubs...but it won't be many. I don't even know any one having a gun.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
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RE: Gun Culture, US versus Europe. - 1/8/2011 7:39:38 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TotalDiscipline

The country I live in, The Netherlands, don't really seems to have a gun culture.
Some criminals, the police and the army have guns. To get in a shooting club you need to be checked and i think you even have to shoot for several years with an air gun. The weapons you can get are very light.
Not sure how many people are in shooting clubs...but it won't be many. I don't even know any one having a gun.



Then I guess it is not Swiss?   ;-)

Many MANY here have guns.  9 out of 10 in this zip code.  however- you seldom see them.

(in reply to TotalDiscipline)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Gun Culture, US versus Europe. - 1/8/2011 7:41:31 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

wow lot to comment on in your post!

people do not understand how gov or law works.

first no group of people can lawfully rule over another group of people UNLESS the group consents to be ruled.



If that's how government or law works, then add me to the group of people that do not understand.

By your definition, every singe dictatorship is unlawful.

Also, consent is not a yes-or-no thing.  There are certain laws that I sure as hell never consented to but apply to me anyway.  I have agreed to the SYSTEM of laws, under which I cast a vote for or against those people who got elected to represent my interests and occasionally do so.

Your nice, neat simple statement does not begin to address the complexities of our system.




well the way it is supposed to work is that laws, no matter what laws no matter who created by a group or who ever in the final analysis operate on a single individual. YOU!

The idea of a republic in the first place was to protect you from "so-called" laws made by the democracy that YOU DID NOT AGREE OR CONSENT TO BE UNDER!

In other words you can vote in the democracy for the corporate "by-laws" you want in the democracy.

People fail to understand or recognize the difference.  Need to read the old texts before those irrelevant details disappeared from the texts!

That said the republic runs on rights!  If the democracy makes a "by-law" that violates the law then you have the right to not obey it.  Let the democracy (STATE OF XYZ) run any way it wants as along as it does not infringe on my rights.

So what is the basis for your rights?

Personal Injury in body or equity.

Thats it!  simple as shit.   Thats what the whole constitution is about.  Those are the lines.

That is what is supposed to be protected but IS NOT!  Because the gubmint and the court system is and has been a for profit business filling their cafr and off book sludge funds.

Think about it... the court was created under the legislative branch!  supremem court judges are appointed by the el' praze'dante'!!!  Where is the separation of powers and protection for the people?

Read your state constitutions!  Ours says the officers are chartered to protect the STATE MONARCHY! Not the people!

Whats our first clue?


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Gun Culture, US versus Europe. - 1/8/2011 7:42:23 AM   
myotherself


Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy



To what fluoridated water?  (which they do not do to the water in EU)





I'm in the EU and the water in my region is fluoridated.

_____________________________

There's nowt so queer as folk


(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Gun Culture, US versus Europe. - 1/8/2011 7:43:15 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I agree, people in the US have lost their defiance.  They are very close to being like the UK folk.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Gun Culture, US versus Europe. - 1/8/2011 7:45:46 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I agree, people in the US have lost their defiance.  They are very close to being like the UK folk.


Nah.  Our teeth are in better shape, and we don't talk funny like they do. 


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Gun Culture, US versus Europe. - 1/8/2011 7:46:10 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

fluoridated water
quote:

ORIGINAL: myotherself


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy



To what fluoridated water?  (which they do not do to the water in EU)





I'm in the EU and the water in my region is fluoridated.




(in reply to myotherself)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Gun Culture, US versus Europe. - 1/8/2011 7:52:06 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I agree, people in the US have lost their defiance.  They are very close to being like the UK folk.


its not defiance as much as it is we dont know what the fuck we are or who we are!

We have a rogue system that mutated out of the english system and never had a chance to root the new government because in 1861 we were already over-run by the banks and the aristocracy.

They still sing the same songs of freedom but its not to be had!

Go out and talk to people they are depressed as hell when you talk about rights and freedom.

The people are not only the 4th branch of government by they are the kings and the government is the serfs but the propaganda mills have distracted their attention to an enormous amount of pure bullshit and they never had their eye on the ball because they never really knew what that ball was supposed to look like!

Well thanks to the internet and the huge resources out here we now know.

Oh and btw....  the latest gig with gubmint is we are gatting falsified congressional records being put out here where they are using graphics to change records and cover up important issues that support our growth in knowledge of the truth!!

Who'd a thunk it huh?


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Gun Culture, US versus Europe. - 1/8/2011 7:54:49 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I agree, people in the US have lost their defiance.  They are very close to being like the UK folk.


its not defiance as much as it is we dont know what the fuck we are or who we are!

We have a rogue system that mutated out of the english system and never had a chance to root the new government because in 1861 we were already over-run by the banks and the aristocracy.

They still sing the same songs of freedom but its not to be had!

Go out and talk to people they are depressed as hell when you talk about rights and freedom.

The people are not only the 4th branch of government by they are the kings and the government is the serfs but the propaganda mills have distracted their attention to an enormous amount of pure bullshit and they never had their eye on the ball because they never really knew what that ball was supposed to look like!

Well thanks to the internet and the huge resources out here we now know.

Oh and btw....  the latest gig with gubmint is we are gatting falsified congressional records being put out here where they are using graphics to change records and cover up important issues that support our growth in knowledge of the truth!!

Who'd a thunk it huh?



Yeah but we have the right to pay taxes to the Crown.  (Goldman)

HA

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Gun Culture, US versus Europe. - 1/8/2011 8:01:33 AM   
myotherself


Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

fluoridated water
quote:

ORIGINAL: myotherself


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy



To what fluoridated water?  (which they do not do to the water in EU)





I'm in the EU and the water in my region is fluoridated.






I don't live in any of those countries where there is no fluoride.
In my region of the UK (England, to be specific), the water is fluoridated.
No-one asked me to vote for it - it's just there.



_____________________________

There's nowt so queer as folk


(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 20
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