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Question on responsibility - 12/30/2010 3:40:53 PM   
sinandhoney


Posts: 61
Joined: 7/23/2009
From: Lincoln, NE
Status: offline 		I was talking with a friend who prompted this question in my mind. He has a few things I consider flaws and potential red flags. One being that he feels if he is co-topping that it's the subs Dominants responsibility to make sure the sub is okay. I think that is kind of an easy out should things go south (which has happened a few times that I know of) and sort of lazy. Which pushed me in to examining a few more things that were said.

Now I think the sub has a responsibility to keep themselves safe, and as a Sadist I wouldn't play with anyone who I didn't know for sure would safe word or otherwise tell me if things were going wrong. But as a submissive I do know there are times where you are unable to vocalize what is wrong or pinpoint in the middle of the scene what the issue is. So as a Top I do keep that in mind when I play. I don't totally rely on what they tell me, I read their body, their breathing and trust my gut if I think I am pushing them a bit to far and I'll back off and restart.

For this person it's all the subs responsibility. THEY didn't safeword, It was their dominants responsibility, I was co-topping so the other Dom should have been checking in with the sub.

I think this is a potentially dangerous thought process. If she decides afterwards you went to far and presses charges I don't think the cops are going to care that she didn't safeword. If she gets injured because you were relying on the safeword to prevent harm I don't think that is going to fix the harm if done.

There are other things with this person I find distressing but this is the main one that has me conflicted a bit.

I think the sub should be responsible but at the same time that doesn't mean the Dominant is off the hook. I tried voicing my opinion on this but don't think I did a very good job in explaining what I seen as a flaw in his thinking process. I'd love thoughts on how others feel to maybe better line up my own thoughts.

Thanks
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Question on responsibility - 12/30/2010 4:01:51 PM   
January


Posts: 891
Joined: 4/17/2004
Status: offline 		My answer depends on what your definition of co-topping is. Are there two dominants at the scene, both interacting with the sub? Or is one D off, checking into the scene once in awhile--or is he completely gone?

< Message edited by January -- 12/30/2010 4:02:30 PM >

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RE: Question on responsibility - 12/30/2010 4:07:57 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I am a big believer in CYA.
If you are going to play, you better be prepared for the possible consequences. And that means not holding someone else to bear the responsibility for your actions.

(in reply to January)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Question on responsibility - 12/30/2010 4:15:14 PM   
sinandhoney


Posts: 61
Joined: 7/23/2009
From: Lincoln, NE
Status: offline 		They are always 2 Dominants co-topping in the scene both playing at the same time, rather than taking turns or one watching. At least with him it is.

(in reply to Missokyst)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Question on responsibility - 12/30/2010 4:15:56 PM   
plushiecat


Posts: 109
Joined: 12/18/2005
Status: offline 		If it is a true co-topping, that is, they are each sharing equally, then both are responsible for the consequences and results. Yes, the sub is also responsible, but there is no way the "guest dom" should be able to lay all the responsibility on the one who is the dom of the submissive.

(in reply to Missokyst)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Question on responsibility - 12/30/2010 4:19:48 PM   
Capndependable


Posts: 24
Joined: 12/11/2010
Status: offline 		I'm relatively new to this sight, so maybe my opinion doesn't carry any weight.

BUT.. It seems a bit off to me that a Dom seems to be so eager to give up their control and responsibilities and lay them at the foot of another..

I mean really.. "Oh my.. I'm not responsible for this.. I was just here.. And SHE didn't say anything, and HE seemed to think it was alright"..

Phhht.

By that way of thinking, you could do anything you wanted too, to an unconscious person. Or just stand back and tap your foot while you watched a Master beat their slave to death.

If you're worth your salt at all. You should be able to subtly move things away from where you don't think/feel things should be going.. You should be paying attention to everything. Not just along for the ride.

And YES. If you're just along for the ride, your "gut" isn't going to tell you a damned thing for good or for ill. You're just following the leader.

(in reply to sinandhoney)
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RE: Question on responsibility - 12/30/2010 4:28:31 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sinandhoney

I was talking with a friend who prompted this question in my mind. He has a few things I consider flaws and potential red flags. One being that he feels if he is co-topping that it's the subs Dominants responsibility to make sure the sub is okay. I think that is kind of an easy out should things go south (which has happened a few times that I know of) and sort of lazy. Which pushed me in to examining a few more things that were said.

I think it depends. Whenever anyone but Val is scening with me - and even then he can't read my mind - the ultimate responsiblity for me rests with me. As I said, not even Valyraen can read my mind. So I accept the fact that I might get hurt because I can't speak effectively. Shit happens, sometimes worse than others. How I play sometimes isn't exactly safe. I'm ok with that.

Now, I don't share the whole of it. The top, IMHO, always has some responsibility. They are bringing objects into contact with my flesh that could hurt me seriously. They have to check in on the things you mentioned, check in with the bottom if appropriate as not everyone wants to be asked questions during a scene, etc.

Val simply doesn't co-top. When he is in the room, he watches but not with a hawk-eye. We have faith in our ability to pick play partners and the local DMs. When I am being co-topped I expect all the tops involved be checking in on us. After all, if they are doing their task well, I probably won't be thinking about if my hands are turning blue but I can scream and do my "bad pain" if something hurts.

It's a give-and-take. A lovely dance if you will. I certainly wouldn't play with anyone who felt a co-top situation absolved them of all responsibility.
quote:


I think this is a potentially dangerous thought process. If she decides afterwards you went to far and presses charges I don't think the cops are going to care that she didn't safeword.

You are right but, to be blunt, ever time a top plays they run this risk. Marks are marks and the "But it was BDSM" explanation doesn't seem to fly well when you've got a crying woman pointing the finger at you.
quote:


I think the sub should be responsible but at the same time that doesn't mean the Dominant is off the hook. I tried voicing my opinion on this but don't think I did a very good job in explaining what I seen as a flaw in his thinking process. I'd love thoughts on how others feel to maybe better line up my own thoughts.


Makes sense to me. Hopefully I make sense to you.


_____________________________

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(in reply to sinandhoney)
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RE: Question on responsibility - 12/30/2010 6:27:51 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		If he doesn't know the sub, but the sub's dominant is right there, then he or she will know the sub's body language and should be able to spot a problem faster than the new top. Obviously if he sees a problem he needs to address it, but having the other dominant there means that's the person who should be checking in with the sub, since the sub will respond better to his/her own dominant.

I presume this is why he only co-tops, so he doesn't have to worry about things happening with subs he doesn't know.
Depending on a sub to always be able to safeword is risky since there are times they can't, but trusting the long term partner to read his/her own sub is not.


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RE: Question on responsibility - 12/30/2010 6:37:03 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline 		Arousal is an amzing thing. It produces such euphoria that it is impossible definitively to say during a scene if or what level of safety there is. I know this is a contentious point but I stick by it. I'm saying that I think of the three tenets safety is the most dificult area to take responsibility for.
When I was an owned slave and indeed when I was a submissive I forwent a safe word. Only that is when I trusted the dominant and master. That I trusted who was in the dominant position came out of knowing them and came out of relationship. This was NOT the case when I was exchanged or 'loaned' and playing with a dominant I did not know. And thus I always only played under these conditions if I was allowed a return to either a safe word or a safety signal (if breath play or gags for example came into play).
However the question of who takes responsibility is something that has been preoccupying me since I have switched to the other side of the kneel. Now don't misread me here but what I am saying is that it sure feels the more responsible position being the dominant. Ultimately it has to be like that because abnegation of power in its ultimate form also entails abnegation of responsibility.
The situation does indeed become complex when there are two dominants and one sub. What I think about this situation is that there has to be, for safety's sake, a decision made before the arousal kicks off, that one dominant at least remains the holder of safety.


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RE: Question on responsibility - 12/30/2010 6:50:37 PM   
January


Posts: 891
Joined: 4/17/2004
Status: offline 		I agree with DesFIP.

And if the sub's Dom is unfamiliar with the risks and possible responses his sub might have with the new Dom's style/play--play shouldn't occur.

January

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Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Question on responsibility - 12/30/2010 7:05:08 PM   
mbes


Posts: 465
Joined: 12/14/2006
Status: offline 		If I played with my other half and another top, I would absolutely expect my other half to know my status, far better than the other top. He would be the one ultimately responsible, since I go non-verbal really fast. He knows me, has a good idea of what I can take, can tell when I'm getting close to the edge and when we've crossed it.
BUT I wouldn't want to play with someone who felt no responsibility at all. He should at the least check in with the other top if he sees things he thinks might be trouble.

(in reply to January)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Question on responsibility - 12/31/2010 4:26:39 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline 		We often co-top our sub and I have often co-topped others. Its a three way interaction and if it can't work out as a three way interaction then its hopeless.
If and when I co-top someone elses sub I make sure that I am properly filled in with his/her dominant before anything begins and I also ensure the sub is comfortable with me taking part. Because he/she knows the sub better than me, I would continue to communicate via whispers and hand signals throughout the scene.
When Steve and me co-top our own sub we continually communicate with each other, though its incredibly subtle because we can read one another faces and body language really well, but throughout the scene, one of us will be keeping a close watch on our subs reaction and either encouraging or shaking our head in a warning to back off a bit. She of course is oblivious to this and probably believes 2 evil sadists are letting lose on her. The fact is, her safety is paramount and we take that responsibility very seriously.



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RE: Question on responsibility - 12/31/2010 4:36:01 AM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

She of course is oblivious to this and probably believes 2 evil sadists are letting lose on her. The fact is, her safety is paramount and we take that responsibility very seriously.



That, so eloquently put, is exactly the point about responsibility that I was trying to state.


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Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

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RE: Question on responsibility - 12/31/2010 5:45:42 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		It is really rather simple..... IT is a joint responsibility for everyone involved!!! No one is without responsibility. But it is not a hard line where these responsibillities exist between the individuas involved.... these situations are rather fuild and as such the line will float and shift as the sitaution changes.

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Question on responsibility - 12/31/2010 6:45:11 AM   
SomoneReal


Posts: 65
Joined: 7/5/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sinandhoney

One being that he feels if he is co-topping that it's the subs Dominants responsibility to make sure the sub is okay.


That's fucking retarded.  If he's using that excuse, than kick his ass out of whatever activities that he's involved with and don't invite him back.

This is like a guy going on a killing spree and blaming the bullet manufacturer because the bullets kept hurting people.

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RE: Question on responsibility - 12/31/2010 8:22:30 AM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SomoneReal

quote:

ORIGINAL: sinandhoney

One being that he feels if he is co-topping that it's the subs Dominants responsibility to make sure the sub is okay.


That's fucking retarded.  If he's using that excuse, than kick his ass out of whatever activities that he's involved with and don't invite him back.

This is like a guy going on a killing spree and blaming the bullet manufacturer because the bullets kept hurting people.


Your words have given me the smile of the day


_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

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RE: Question on responsibility - 12/31/2010 9:04:39 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I'm a little worried about where this is going.

Anytime we start drifting into that 'the bottom isn't providing verbal responses/safewords' thing, the next part usually leads to, 'well the top should just 'know'.  Yes, the top can do their best to read body language and stuff, but they aren't mind readers.  If we're talking about a co-topping situation (meaning two tops are playing in the same time frame, either taking turns or both at once), I really do expect that if the other top is the sub's own Dominant, they know their sub better than I do.  That's the person that's going to be better at reading those subtle cues than I am because they have more experience playing with that particular person.

This isn't to say that I am relieved of responsibility if I'm the additional top brought in.  It means that I'll be checking with both the other top and the bottom.  That bottom doesn't necessarily get a free pass on their responsibility in the matter by saying that, well, they tend to stop responding to verbally, and I'm just supposed to figure it out.  I should have a good resource for information right there in the other top.  The one who has probably been playing with the bottom a lot longer than I have.



Edited for phrasing.


< Message edited by LadyPact -- 12/31/2010 9:06:20 AM >

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RE: Question on responsibility - 12/31/2010 10:02:23 AM   
LillyBoPeep


Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline 		The responsibility belongs to everyone involved but with that said, no one person ever totally escapes responsibility. If this person sees something he doesn't agree with, or feels things are getting out of hand, he can voice his opinion and/or stop playing.
There are some people who pride themselves on their ability to beat someone into subspace, but once they've done that, they can't just say "well it's not my fault." You have responsibility, no matter what.

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RE: Question on responsibility - 12/31/2010 10:12:31 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		I have to say that it would depend on what was discussed beforehand.

I know some Dom's who prefer that the person topping be the one to 'call all the shot's' so to speak...including when to stop, when to keep going, etc, etc. And then I know some who insist that they maintain control during the scene, even if they themselves are not the ones weilding.

It really comes down to what was discussed and agreed upon before the scene started.

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RE: Question on responsibility - 12/31/2010 10:26:01 AM   
Whiplashsmile4


Posts: 2305
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline 		A lot of this stuff, all sort of depends upon the people involved and what the hell is actually going on. Rather difficult to comment upon with so many generalizations.

However, everybody involved is responsible for what they do or don't do.


< Message edited by Whiplashsmile4 -- 12/31/2010 10:27:16 AM >

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