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Fear.... outside of the play - 12/10/2010 5:40:42 PM

KnightofMists

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The punishment thread had me consider the aspect of fear within a relationship dynamic. It seems to me that it is commonly thought that Fear is destructive to a relationship. But... I wonder....

Can fear have a place in your relationship? Can Fear be constructively used within a dynamic.... if it can... how can it? Or is Fear always a destructive quality within a relationship...

What are your thoughts of fear within a relationship?

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RE: Fear.... outside of the play - 12/10/2010 5:52:43 PM

littlewonder

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I don't always see fear as a negativity even in relationships. Do I have fears in my relationship outside of play? Yes, I fear his disappointments in me, I fear his loss of love and respect of me, I fear his anger even though it's so very rare with him, I fear his sadistic tendencies even at times because well...I'm not a masochist.

I think those fears though help to make me a better slave and person for him. It keeps me on my toes and aware. It keeps me from becoming lazy and too laid back in our relationship which seems to happen in a lot of failed relationships.

This does not mean I'm walking around him always walking on eggshells. Hardly. I'm actually more comfortable with him than with anyone else.

So for me what others see as a negative I see as a positive.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

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RE: Fear.... outside of the play - 12/10/2010 5:55:16 PM

anniezz338

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Good one. I would wonder where the fear would be the directed...toward the Master or the fear of punishment or consequences. I could see where that might blur some lines.....

Wouldn't fear negate the trust?

< Message edited by anniezz338 -- 12/10/2010 5:58:36 PM >

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RE: Fear.... outside of the play - 12/10/2010 6:02:10 PM

AquaticSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

Can fear have a place in your relationship? Can Fear be constructively used within a dynamic.... if it can... how can it? Or is Fear always a destructive quality within a relationship...

What are your thoughts of fear within a relationship?

In my relationship? No. Not it can't. Rather, there can be no additional fear deliberately created or twisted in the relationship. The reason is very simple - I have far too many emotional triggers based on fear and far too many ungrounded fears and anxieties as it stands. The goal is to lessen how much I fear and worry in life.

For other people? Meh... I have trouble picturing how fear, as I know and process fear, could help maintain a healthy relationship. But fear is a subjective emotion. I can not even begin to say how another person handles fear. I do feel there are certain things that are - in the vast majority of circumstances - not healthy. Such as one partner being afraid to ask for clarification, being afraid to tell the partner that they are hungry/in pain/need to see a doctor/etc.

But if someone else says that fear is a factor in how they are able to maintain a healthy relationship... Whatever floats their boat.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 12/10/2010 6:03:17 PM >

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RE: Fear.... outside of the play - 12/10/2010 6:05:47 PM

heartfeltsub

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i think it depends on the type and the extent of the fear and one's definition for the term. To explain, in the Old Testament, the fear (meaning healthy respect and reverence for) of the Lord was taught. Fear in that regard, where one has a healthy respect for the One who has authority in one's life is a good and healthy thing. Fear that inhibits and keeps a person from being able to give him or herself completely that i believe is a destructive thing, causing lies and deception in the relationship out of fear of the other's disapproval or retribution.

i would also like to comment on littlewonder's post and ask her a question. For me, if i am constantly or consistently fearing my D-type's disapproval or fearing i would fail Him in some way that would become for me a debilitating thing. i would be more concerned with my fear, constantly fearing a misstep on my part, even if there was no ramifications (ie punishment) instead of being able to freely serve, not worrying about failing him, letting him tell me if he is pleased or not. That my place is to obey to the best of my ability, not sit in judgement of myself and whether i am "doing it right", so to speak. (hopefully this is making sense)

So my question littlewonder is this, do you react as i would, as i tried to describe in the previous paragraph, so does the fear that you talk about affect you differently?

Very interesting question Knight,

heartfelt

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RE: Fear.... outside of the play - 12/10/2010 6:12:30 PM

littlewonder

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My fear keeps me from becoming lazy. It makes me try harder, to be the best slave and person I can for him. I don't ever find it debilitating in any way whatsoever. If I didn't fear his disappointment in me then eventually I would probably lose some respect for him to be honest and I'd just stop trying I'd probably just not care anymore if I became a better person if all I did was exactly as he said. I want for him to stand back and say "wow.....that's wonderful!" and not just " good girl for obeying me".

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RE: Fear.... outside of the play - 12/10/2010 6:27:40 PM

NuevaVida

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Wow Aqua said what I was thinking, first.

I spent far too many years walking on eggshells for deliberate fear to be healthy for me. Perhaps that might change over time, but I still deal with occasional trauma-triggers that shoot me full of unsubstantiated fear-driven anxiety, that we work together to calm. It is still too easy for me to go down a self-destructive path, and fearing him (whether it's fear of letting him down or fear of what he might do to me) would likely catapult me there.

Nor does he want me to fear him, or even fear disappointing him. As he recently said to me, my job is to just be me, and express those emotions when I have them. He says he knows how much I strive to please him, and said he's not worried about my disappointing him, so I shouldn't, either.

For the most part, we try to keep things positive and focus on enjoying life. To me, fear is generally a negative emotion, and he doesn't want me hanging out in negative-emotion-camp.

Who knows, perhaps this will all change over time and I won't react so strongly to it. But I have PTSD from things that happened before, so it's not something we mess with.

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RE: Fear.... outside of the play - 12/10/2010 6:28:12 PM

heartfeltsub

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Thank you for answering my question, i am pondering your response and trying to see how that would work in me.

heartfelt

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Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

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RE: Fear.... outside of the play - 12/10/2010 6:32:37 PM

xssve

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I think fear can be a good thing, it's really, like most things, a matter of levels: to keep someone in a constant state of debilitating terror is probably not a good thing, and most people would tend to assess that as abusive - some people jell out, others thrive on it, like LW suggests, it keep them from becoming complacent - others simply love the thrill of it, why do you suppose horror movies are so popular?

Fear and sexual excitement are also closely related physiologically: elevated heart rate and respiration, etc., the whole freeze-fight-or-flee phenomena applies - in short, the hormones expressed that generate feelings of fear are there to keep you alive, and being close to danger reminds you - that you are alive, and can be converted fairly quickly into sexual energy.

I kind of worry about the opposite: that relying to much on generating fear will make me lazy and complacent, I tend to go out of my way to try and alleviate it, which some women find disappointing - thing is, I'm just way too good at scaring people who don't really know me, and genuinely scared people are dangerous, they tend to overreact.

i.e., I like to have some warning, if that's what you're into, and I'll scare the shit out of you.

< Message edited by xssve -- 12/10/2010 6:34:02 PM >

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RE: Fear.... outside of the play - 12/10/2010 6:39:20 PM

petmonkey

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If my fearfulness was connected directly to the other person in any way and wasn't relieved by talk and then action, it's consistently been harmful in my past relationships.

If my fearfulness was connected to something outside the relationship but had a direct affect on it, sometimes it's been a useful tool for practicing communication, trust, honesty, new levels of understanding each other, what-have-you. Sometimes it didn't, mixed bag there, usually dependent on the other person's response to it.

If my fearfulness was connected to something completely unrelated to the relationship or the person, (and i'm fairly certain some people here will say, "no such thing") sometimes it was used as a tool for psychological "play"---mixed bag again, depending on the other person's ultimate goal and whether it achieved that goal.

The results always seemed more positive over the long haul when "awe" was emphasized or the related concept of "to thirll" over other types of fear--like feelings of anxiety, dread, nervousness, apprehension--that stuff just doesn't work out well, for me. It makes me withdraw emotionally and physically, things that cause me to withdraw from the other person equates to bad, in my book.

i accept that somewhere, someone else possibly finds their own brand of joy in it. They might be on these here boards, i'm interested in reading their response.

Did i respond to the question in a way that made sense?

eta: and did i use "affect" correctly in that sentence?

< Message edited by petmonkey -- 12/10/2010 6:52:38 PM >

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RE: Fear.... outside of the play - 12/10/2010 6:43:35 PM

CarpeComa

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Now that's always a lightning rod question. It's usually followed by knee-jerk responses on the order of "Fear has no place in my relationships". I find that to be an ill considered position. Is fear of something little more than the recognition that something can impose consequences on you? If you had no concern of consequence, what motivation would you have for respect? I say that which you don't fear at all, you have no respect for.

It is important to distinguish 'having fear' from 'living in fear' and being terrorized. The latter is not conductive to relationships most people would consider healthy. Much like having a glass of wine is good, but having the barrel? Not so much.

< Message edited by CarpeComa -- 12/10/2010 6:44:47 PM >

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RE: Fear.... outside of the play - 12/10/2010 6:45:49 PM

xssve

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quote:

The results always seemed more positive over the long haul when "awe" was emphasized or the related concept of "to thirll" over other types of fear--like feelings of anxiety, dread, nervousness, apprehension--that stuff just doesn't work out well, for me. It makes me withdraw emotionally and physically, things that cause me to withdraw from the other person equates to bad, in my book.

There ya go.

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RE: Fear.... outside of the play - 12/10/2010 7:12:07 PM

mbes

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I like fear, in the right doses. It wakes me up and turns me on, and I don't mean sexually. I like the heightened sense of awareness it causes.
Too much, and I go into overload, which is no fun. Too little and I go to "sleep". Either that, or I will find something to worry about and create it for myself.
So yes, it does have a place in my life, and is not strictly negative.

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RE: Fear.... outside of the play - 12/10/2010 8:22:38 PM

petmonkey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CarpeComa If you had no concern of consequence, what motivation would you have for respect?

Love jumps to mind. As well as pride, as in, proud to know the other person, because they're just that darned magnificent. Or expertise, as in respect for their knowledge of something. That's a few reasons for respect i had for a dominant personality-type i've been in relationships with which didn't include fear in the arrangement. i greatly respect people who's focus is on joyousness, beauty, wonder, the grandeur of the world . . .it's pretty motivating to be around, for me.

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RE: Fear.... outside of the play - 12/10/2010 8:25:04 PM

MaxsGirl

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I do fear him, and I think it benefits our relationship. And it's not just his disappointment I fear, I fear Alpha himself. Just as heartfeltsub described, my fear for him translates for the most part as respect and deference. When he gives me "the look" and I know I really have a reason to fear, it can run anywhere from a slight shiver to near terror, depending on my infraction. I'm not a true submissive - I'm only submissive to Alpha, and have never been submissive to anyone before him - and I find that a little extra dose of control is needed to keep me where I'm happiest, under his thumb. If fear is a part of that, then so be it, it works very well for us.

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RE: Fear.... outside of the play - 12/10/2010 8:33:56 PM

CaringandReal

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Interesting question.

On average, outside of social situations, I'm a fearless sort. Fear frees me from this stupid lack of affect, so I greatly appreciate someone who can invoke it in me. Fear tastes more "interesting" than non-fear.

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RE: Fear.... outside of the play - 12/10/2010 8:37:17 PM

CarpeComa

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quote:

ORIGINAL: petmonkey

quote:

ORIGINAL: CarpeComa If you had no concern of consequence, what motivation would you have for respect?

Love jumps to mind. As well as pride, as in, proud to know the other person, because they're just that darned magnificent. Or expertise, as in respect for their knowledge of something. That's a few reasons for respect i had for a dominant personality-type i've been in relationships with which didn't include fear in the arrangement. i greatly respect people who's focus is on joyousness, beauty, wonder, the grandeur of the world . . .it's pretty motivating to be around, for me.

And you respected what you did because if you did not, the outcomes would be something you did not want. Every decision at the base level is a determining how to maximize what you what and minimize what you don't want. If there were no potential negative consequences to your actions, if only it was to lose out on something you wanted, I guarantee your sense of respect would evaporate. You can see this in action numerous places in life; internet forums, undisciplined children (not strictly referring to corporal discipline), lax enforcement of rules/laws. Anytime the consequences go down, respect goes down. Just look at what happened to the discourse here when the mods cut back on their enforcement.

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RE: Fear.... outside of the play - 12/10/2010 8:59:02 PM

AquaticSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

I kind of worry about the opposite: that relying to much on generating fear will make me lazy and complacent

Honestly, I feel much the same. I know myself and - to be blunt - if I thought it would be so easy to lose Valyraen's love that I had to fear it, I would just assume that I would fuck up eventually and break up with him now to save myself greater pain later down the road.

In my relationships, I need to feel security. While I could lose him, I don't fear it because I know what it would take to cause me to lose him. Nor, for that matter, do I fear consequences of my bad behavior. They are unpleasent, I don't like them, I hate them... but they are not frightening. Hence I completely disagree with this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: CarpeComa

If you had no concern of consequence, what motivation would you have for respect? I say that which you don't fear at all, you have no respect for.

This makes no sense to me. I respect Teddy Roosevelt but he's dead so I really have no reason to fear him - short of a zombie flick come true.

I respect Valyraen because I don't have to be afraid of him. Because I don't have to be afraid of his punishments. Because he is one of the few men... one of the few people who just love me as me. Who loves me despite my numerous fuck-ups and because I don't have to be scared of him leaving me.

If I fuck up, there are consequences. But not every consequence is something to be afraid of. Unpleasant yes, might even make me cry. So I have concern certainly. But that is different than fear.

For others, yeah sure go for it. But to imply that those of us who have no additional/created fear in our relationships also have no respect... I don't get it.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 12/10/2010 9:01:59 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to xssve)

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RE: Fear.... outside of the play - 12/10/2010 9:06:19 PM

petmonkey

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i will respond in more depth, CarpeComa. Unfortunately, i must go to work, so will have to do so a bit later. i can say, quickly, that my mind doesn't trend toward thinking of situations as either/or scenarios--so i may be coming at what your describing from a odd angle. But attending to my job--that is certainly one. :) Either i attend my shift and get what i want (paycheck) or i don't and get what i don't want (job loss). But do i really actually fear that? And is that respect or just complying?

add: i wasn't on these boards when the mods changed policy, kind of curious what you're referring to--another thread?

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RE: Fear.... outside of the play - 12/10/2010 9:06:20 PM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CarpeComa
And you respected what you did because if you did not, the outcomes would be something you did not want. Every decision at the base level is a determining how to maximize what you what and minimize what you don't want. If there were no potential negative consequences to your actions, if only it was to lose out on something you wanted, I guarantee your sense of respect would evaporate. You can see this in action numerous places in life; internet forums, undisciplined children (not strictly referring to corporal discipline), lax enforcement of rules/laws. Anytime the consequences go down, respect goes down. Just look at what happened to the discourse here when the mods cut back on their enforcement.

I think the difference between my thoughts and what you are saying is my respect is not fear based. It's based on appreciating what is, right now in the present - not because it could go away, but because it's so cool now. I respect HIM for his character, not because he isn't leaving me. One of the greatest reasons I respect him and this relation is because I don't have to fear him/it. By just being who I am, I can't screw it up. I can just be, serve, love, and enjoy.

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Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

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