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Mind your own business - TPE and OSOs - 11/20/2010 4:16:49 AM

KNelson

Posts: 26
Joined: 7/13/2009
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The post below on TPE and M/s and when to mind one's own business and not did provoke a second question that I'm curious to see how you all respond.

The question - When a submissive has a spouse and the spouse is not the master or mistress, how much of the TPE is the spouse's concern? Assume the M/s relationship is known to the spouse so there's no cheating factor or anything like that.

Some examples that do come to mind -- submissive tells spouse that the master/mistress has been isolating them from family; submissive tells spouse that play is getting darker -- dark enough that it is causing the submissive to worry; submissive begins to receive financial instruction (you can assume submissive contributes to finances as a whole, is the sole breadwinner or does not work); submissive has a bad scene leaving spouse to pick up the pieces as master is not doing so; submissive changes behavior toward spouse (this can be subtle as in not doing little things that were done like making coffee in the morning or bigger things such as being affected by what master is telling submissive about how to deal with emotions); submissive discusses worries about M/s relationship with spouse.

You all can add other scenarios, but I think you get the idea. In the sorts of situations above, is there an appropriate point for the spouse to stop minding their own business and step in?

Post #: 1

RE: Mind your own business - TPE and OSOs - 11/20/2010 4:34:18 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

All of it concerns the spouse. Which is why ethically the spouse and the dominant need to talk to make sure problems do not arise at home and lines are drawn to protect the marriage/family. And why the spouse should always hold veto power.

This applies not just to the sub's spouse but also to the dominant's. Because if you've decided the commitment is first to the spouse, as I'm assuming it is because otherwise you would end the marriage, and anything that could interfere in the marriage is something the spouse needs to know about.

Dominants have been known to step in financially when subs are struggling. Dominants can suffer top drop when the sub is already home, tending her/his family. Full disclosure is required on both sides.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to KNelson)

Post #: 2

RE: Mind your own business - TPE and OSOs - 11/20/2010 6:27:45 AM

DarkSteven

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Joined: 5/2/2008
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I don't know if I follow the premise. If someone is in TPE, then they belong to that other person. 100%. If someone is married, then they have a significant commitment, perhaps not quite 100%.

Your hypothetical is someone who has two different commitments that are so deep that they can not really coexist. And your question is, how can they coexist. Unless the spouse is a cuckold or on life support, I don't see how they can.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 3

RE: Mind your own business - TPE and OSOs - 11/20/2010 7:16:54 AM

KNelson

Posts: 26
Joined: 7/13/2009
Status: offline

Perhaps I am confusing TPE with M/s? Or you could call the D/s relationship on with depth that is trending toward M/s. Though I tend to agree with your conclusion that a spousal commitment and a TPE, M/s commitment don't co-exist well - if at all.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 4

RE: Mind your own business - TPE and OSOs - 11/20/2010 7:36:44 AM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

quote:

The question - When a submissive has a spouse and the spouse is not the master or mistress, how much of the TPE is the spouse's concern? Assume the M/s relationship is known to the spouse so there's no cheating factor or anything like that.

For us, the spouse is fully integrated from the start, or we do not enter into the situation. Activities, behaviors, etc., are discussed, and planned in such a way that they do not interfere with or cause awkward situations for the non-participating partner.

quote:

Some examples that do come to mind -- submissive tells spouse that the master/mistress has been isolating them from family; submissive tells spouse that play is getting darker -- dark enough that it is causing the submissive to worry; submissive begins to receive financial instruction (you can assume submissive contributes to finances as a whole, is the sole breadwinner or does not work); submissive has a bad scene leaving spouse to pick up the pieces as master is not doing so; submissive changes behavior toward spouse (this can be subtle as in not doing little things that were done like making coffee in the morning or bigger things such as being affected by what master is telling submissive about how to deal with emotions); submissive discusses worries about M/s relationship with spouse.

I can only tell you what it would be in MY situation. I don't consider this a "privacy" issue in terms of having un-involved people interfering. To me, if one of my companions is involved in a relationship, that relationship (especially a TPE-style relationship by whatever name you want to call it) INTIMATELY involves me, as I am intimately involved with the person who is yielding. If my mate is having issue with things happening in the TPE portion of the relationship, then I consider it not ONLY my business, but my role as a supportive and caring mate, to discuss these things with the authority-holder that my mate is answering to.

If I were -holding- authority in this situation, as I have done (since this scenario comes up somewhat often in our household), I would expect that the non-participating mate would inform me of things like this that may not have been expressed in my presence AND to call me on it if the servant in question HAD addressed these things with me and I had, for one reason or another, blown it off.

That is one of the nice checks and balances about a multi-point authority-based structure where everyone is aware of what is going on, even if different people have different roles, IMO. Short answer, then... once the significant other realizes that there are issues that are negatively impacting the totality of hir mate's life... it's time to sit down with either everyone involved OR the active dominant and get things squared away and make -certain- that the situation has been addressed.

Again, YMMV.

Calla

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to KNelson)

Post #: 5

RE: Mind your own business - TPE and OSOs - 11/20/2010 7:38:52 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

I'm quoting so I don't miss any of the points you raised. This is My opinion only and how things work for us. (Excellent question, btw.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KNelson
The question - When a submissive has a spouse and the spouse is not the master or mistress, how much of the TPE is the spouse's concern? Assume the M/s relationship is known to the spouse so there's no cheating factor or anything like that.

This is why I don't tend to use the term TPE when it comes to My M/s dynamic. If the spouse knows, that means that, in some form, the spouse has consented to the arrangement. That spouse has the option of removing that consent. That's power, no matter how you slice it.

quote:

Some examples that do come to mind -- submissive tells spouse that the master/mistress has been isolating them from family;

That one is kind of impossible if the Master/Mistress and slave don't live together. If they are married to another person, they most likely live with that person, so they aren't isolated.

quote:

submissive tells spouse that play is getting darker -- dark enough that it is causing the submissive to worry;

Could happen, but highly unlikely. If there's good communication in the M/s dynamic itself, that is where the issue should be handled. Just like any other dynamic.

quote:

submissive begins to receive financial instruction (you can assume submissive contributes to finances as a whole, is the sole breadwinner or does not work);

Power that isn't turned over isn't power that you can wield. This is actually an area of authority that I've acquired over the years. I use it in a very limited fashion. We haven't had any issues to date.

quote:

submissive has a bad scene leaving spouse to pick up the pieces as master is not doing so;

This one can absolutely happen. Not even necessarily due to a "bad" scene, but because drop doesn't always happen immediately after play. For some, it can come days later, after the person is back home with their spouse. In our case, clip doesn't drop. (Not one time in his entire history in BDSM.) However, I've been known to and My husband has had to put up with Me.

quote:

submissive changes behavior toward spouse (this can be subtle as in not doing little things that were done like making coffee in the morning or bigger things such as being affected by what master is telling submissive about how to deal with emotions);

I can't speak for everyone on this, but in our situation, it's in My boy's best interest for his marriage to be a happy and healthy relationship. I can, and do take measures to that end. In fact, he now does things for her that he never did before I came along. I'll specifically assign things like pedicures or hair brushing as a service that I expect him to provide. Failing to provide her these services is seen in the same way as if he was failing to provide them for Me.

As I see it, what is best for the dynamic is that the marriage remains on solid ground. It would be a very bad situation for My slave to have to have his marriage end. I don't want him going through the pain of divorce.

quote:

submissive discusses worries about M/s relationship with spouse.

This isn't any different than a submissive discussing the dynamic with anyone else. I wouldn't be particularly thrilled because an issue with our dynamic should be brought to Me first. The power that the spouse has is the power of removing consent, which would end the dynamic. Anything else is in the dynamic is up to My authority.

quote:

You all can add other scenarios, but I think you get the idea. In the sorts of situations above, is there an appropriate point for the spouse to stop minding their own business and step in?

In our case, it's actually worked the other way around. I've actually been called to get things settled in their home and get him back to the proper mindset. I have no problem with doing so at her request.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to KNelson)

Post #: 6

RE: Mind your own business - TPE and OSOs - 11/20/2010 7:48:39 AM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

I don't get into the type of situation you described. I'm completely monogamous but my view is that the spouse comes before the Master. The spouse is more important than any Master. The spouse is the one you share your life with, your spouse is the one you married, you agreed to love and charish for the rest of your lives together, etc....

Then again I'm so very old fashioned in my views. I'm probably way off base again as usual.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 7

RE: Mind your own business - TPE and OSOs - 11/20/2010 7:51:49 AM

DaddysInkedSlut

Posts: 1837
Joined: 5/14/2010
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Quick highjack,
Lady Pact in my time on these forums, reading your posts. I have grown to respect you and the above post is all the more reason for that.

_____________________________

Inkie Goodness!

http://www.freakmommas3.com/daddysinkedslut/main.htm

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 8

RE: Mind your own business - TPE and OSOs - 11/20/2010 8:05:39 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

Thank you. I appreciate that a great deal.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to DaddysInkedSlut)

Post #: 9

RE: Mind your own business - TPE and OSOs - 11/20/2010 10:04:57 AM

CalifChick

Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Your hypothetical is someone who has two different commitments that are so deep that they can not really coexist. And your question is, how can they coexist. Unless the spouse is a cuckold or on life support, I don't see how they can.

This. I've never understood how someone could be married but have a power exchange relationship not involving their spouse. Oh, I know I've read of some forum regs who say they have it, but I don't understand the emotional commitment.

I am 100% sure that LadyP does this successfully, of that I have no doubt. From a distance, I don't understand it (I've never been around her family). I don't see how it would work for me.

In my brain, the spouse is first. But the master should always be first... no, the spouse... no, the master. I'm dizzy now.

Cali

_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 10

RE: Mind your own business - TPE and OSOs - 11/20/2010 10:35:34 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick
This. I've never understood how someone could be married but have a power exchange relationship not involving their spouse. Oh, I know I've read of some forum regs who say they have it, but I don't understand the emotional commitment.

I am 100% sure that LadyP does this successfully, of that I have no doubt. From a distance, I don't understand it (I've never been around her family). I don't see how it would work for me.

In my brain, the spouse is first. But the master should always be first... no, the spouse... no, the master. I'm dizzy now.

Cali

You'll get to meet all of us eventually. Probably not during November or December (ask folks of your munch group for details that haven't been announced yet, particularly December) but it's a scheduling thing on our end. Just a matter of time, as far as I'm concerned.

I was actually thinking of you when I wrote the post above. You may not remember the phone call that I got during the munch where we finally got to meet, but that was exactly what I was describing above. You guessed it. An exact case of Me getting called by the SO to straighten something out at home. If she asks Me to intervene in a matter, I'll do it. This can be especially true if it has something to do with obedience or him operating out of a mindset that isn't in his best interest. (One call to Me and that changes quick.)

When the opportunity presents itself that you get to meet all of us, we'll be happy to answer any questions that you might have. We'll do our best to explain how we work things.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to CalifChick)

Post #: 11

RE: Mind your own business - TPE and OSOs - 11/20/2010 11:27:59 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

But most people have multiple commitments and juggle them successfully. Even in a TPE, if you haven't been isolated from your extended family, there are times when commitments collide. Go to Grandpa's 90th birthday party or watch your dominant's weekly baseball pickup game? Obvious there which take priority, for both of you if he's known to your family, for just you if he isn't. Dominant wants you home early but the boss needs you to work late? Want that paycheck to continue, then dominant will just have to wait. Or here, for the last three months, son's football team played every damned Friday, no matter if it was snowing or sleeting. Were we home in front of the fireplace the way we both wanted to be? Nope, we were freezing to death on the bleachers like good parents ought to be. BTW they won the sectional championship and will be getting the cool jackets to treasure the rest of their lives.

Point is, we all compartmentalize because we have to. And the dominant never has control over your other relationships in detail. Only to say it's unhealthy, end that relationship. But he can't control your mother's choice of dinner when you go over there, or demand you don't help her balance her checkbook when you always have even though you come home muttering about people who never write in their registers.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 12

RE: Mind your own business - TPE and OSOs - 11/20/2010 11:38:01 AM

KNelson

Posts: 26
Joined: 7/13/2009
Status: offline

Or DES, dominant wants to see you on Saturday, but SO has been working hard all week and wants the same. How does this balance, who or what takes priority?

In your boss v. Dom scenario, well if Dom understands that you have to have your job as without it there are major issues then Dom, being a person who is looking out for what is best for you will do what is necessary. In Dom v. Spouse wherein both spouse and dom wish to see you in the same time frame, what happens? You try to balance the needs? But if dom is more of a master sort, is there not an intrinsic imbalance?

I do think your first post had something -- if this kind of thing is going to work Dom and Spouse must be able to speak with each other.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 13

RE: Mind your own business - TPE and OSOs - 11/20/2010 11:51:24 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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Lady Pact answered you in detail about how it works in her relationships. In every other relationship things might be different. You might choose to spend it with the dominant because the spouse has been snotty about going to your mother's for dinner on Sunday night. You might choose to spend it with your spouse because you want some support from the dominant and he's only interested in a booty call.

But yes, everybody needs to work together as much as possible for things to work out. Which includes not waiting until Friday night to decide what you're going to do on Saturday. Scheduling should be done as far ahead as possible to avoid last minute clashes. Lady Pact is a public player so if she knows there's a fetish party next month she wants to attend, and clip is home, she tells him about it as soon as she pencils it into her schedule. Thus allowing his wife to pick the weekend before or after to go to garage sales with her or remodel the bathroom.

Communication and scheduling are great helps to everyone.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to KNelson)

Post #: 14

RE: Mind your own business - TPE and OSOs - 11/20/2010 12:16:38 PM

KNelson

Posts: 26
Joined: 7/13/2009
Status: offline

I would like to hear any dissenting voices. Are there? Should a spouse step back in any circumstance and say okie dokie to whatever?

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 15

RE: Mind your own business - TPE and OSOs - 11/20/2010 12:48:42 PM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KNelson

I would like to hear any dissenting voices. Are there? Should a spouse step back in any circumstance and say okie dokie to whatever?

Sure. I mentioned a cuckold relationship but that wasn't the exact word I wanted. A cuckold is someone who watches passively when his or her spouse has sex with others. Extend that outside the bedroom to someone who wants his or her spouse to be Dominated by a third party, and you have the kind of relationship where this could work.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to KNelson)

Post #: 16

RE: Mind your own business - TPE and OSOs - 11/20/2010 4:03:59 PM

Iholdthestrings

Posts: 172
Joined: 9/23/2010
From: Fort Wayne, IN
Status: offline

[edited for grammar comfort]

FR

What about situations where the Master or Mistress is the married one? Personally, I see this being much more difficult for the married (to someone else) slave.

Hubby is vanilla and straight. He knows full well that I am neither, and supports Me in finding My fulfillment. We do have a couple of agreements that we've made with regard to that, but those agreements are not pertinent to this discussion.

The poppet is also married, and her husband is accepting of My being in her life, although he thinks of Me as her girlfriend/best friend and not from a BDSM perspective. Although I try hard to maintain a friendship between he and I, I find there to be much more difficulty from her side of things than from Mine. As a result, the dynamic between she and I often suffers.

The new slave I'm looking for (may have found) will not be a sexual or romantic partner, but will be a live-in. Being unmarried or otherwise romantically entangled, the dynamic between this slave and I has the potential to flow much more smoothly.

I guess what I'm trying to say, in My scatterbrained way, is that it really depends on the dynamic between the married partners (whether vanilla or not), and that between the Dominant and submissive parties as well. Each situation is different, each dynamic is different, and as a result, some things are just easier than others.

With regard to the OP, I think that if what I'm doing is negatively affecting Hubby, I need to reevaluate the situation, and try to find a solution that is good for all parties. I can't do that if he doesn't tell Me. Likewise with the poppet's husband. I don't, however, feel it necessary to share every detail of the interactions between Myself and any of My 'partners' with any of My other partners, or with theirs. I don't ask what the poppet and her husband do behind closed doors, and I would like the same courtesy. Because she has lupus, and several other health issues, our play tends to be a bit more tame than it would without those medical considerations. If I were to cause her harm, though, I would expect that he step in and express his dissent (whether that harm was physical, emotional or mental).

Also, I'd like to point out that acceptance and support are two very different things, and they very much color the way I approach each situation.

< Message edited by Iholdthestrings -- 11/20/2010 4:05:59 PM >

_____________________________

She tied you to Her kitchen chair... and from your lips She drew the Hallelujah.
---------------------------
If I had an orgasm-trigger phrase, it would be "No Strings Housework". ;)

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 17

RE: Mind your own business - TPE and OSOs - 11/20/2010 7:36:08 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Lady Pact answered you in detail about how it works in her relationships. In every other relationship things might be different. You might choose to spend it with the dominant because the spouse has been snotty about going to your mother's for dinner on Sunday night. You might choose to spend it with your spouse because you want some support from the dominant and he's only interested in a booty call.

But yes, everybody needs to work together as much as possible for things to work out. Which includes not waiting until Friday night to decide what you're going to do on Saturday. Scheduling should be done as far ahead as possible to avoid last minute clashes. Lady Pact is a public player so if she knows there's a fetish party next month she wants to attend, and clip is home, she tells him about it as soon as she pencils it into her schedule. Thus allowing his wife to pick the weekend before or after to go to garage sales with her or remodel the bathroom.

Communication and scheduling are great helps to everyone.

Des, you did an absolutely wonderful job with your comments above. That is very much how we work things. Scheduling is important as well as making sure time is divided into all the relationships.

Funny thing about this. Normally, this would have been the scheduled weekend for clip being here, but I had something that couldn't be rescheduled (I just got in from taking My son to the airport) so we had to have a slight change. Stuff like that happens in everyone's life. Special occasions like 90'th birthday parties or a family member's anniversary party are going to come up. These things are a part of life and healthy relationships.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 18

RE: Mind your own business - TPE and OSOs - 11/21/2010 2:25:51 AM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

quote:

This. I've never understood how someone could be married but have a power exchange relationship not involving their spouse. Oh, I know I've read of some forum regs who say they have it, but I don't understand the emotional commitment.

I completely understand your struggle, Califchick. To me, this comprehension issue is not that much different than the challenge people face when trying to understand the concept of how a polyfideletous relationship would work... "Wait... your spouse is priority number one... no... THAT spouse is priority number one... no, wait... THAT spouse should be priority number one... "

I can't really explain it without someone getting a chance to -see- it in action... but it can be done. It's not so much a matter of priority as it is -authority-. As a Keeper, my first responsibility is to assure the well-being of those who have laid their allegiance at my feet. This -includes- protecting and caring for what is important to them.

While this may also not make a lot of sense considering that American's don't get a lot of experience with it, one of the best ways that I can describe my role is "liege lord" -- I am granted the authority to be the final ruling body within the demesne that I hold. Within that authority comes responsibility to, for example, assure that my liege-men have good, productive lives. In order to do that, I exercise my authority to, for example, help to reinforce the health and well-being of the unions that my liege-men are in... because doing so makes them healthier, ties their allegiance to me more strongly, AND encourages the support of the liege-man's mate in our community. In bearing up the authority over my liege-men, I must also bear up the responsibility for the things that -they- are responsible for... because they no longer hold authority, the person who -does- hold that authority has to be both aware and willing to share in that process.

For us, we rarely get a submissive/submissive couple among us -- so we rarely have a situation where someone who is already married will end up yielding complete authority to the House. Rather, we get situations where we have someone who has entered a liege-bound situation to us, but we have a spouse who does not participate in the authority dynamic.
This is why we encourage active participation and why I consider it my responsibility to be able and willing to sit down in discussion with the non-participating spouse. That kind of communication between the two of us is vital to having a situation like this work, for us. I can't imagine a situation like the one that the OP is in where the two individuals are, essentially, compartmentalized from one another.(I'm sure some folks probably do make it work -- I just can't see it working for us).

Calla

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to CalifChick)

Post #: 19

RE: Mind your own business - TPE and OSOs - 11/21/2010 2:32:48 AM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline

quote:

Or DES, dominant wants to see you on Saturday, but SO has been working hard all week and wants the same. How does this balance, who or what takes priority?

In our situation, I'd negotiate this out with the spouse -- then inform the servant of which way xhe'd be spending hir weekend.

Sometimes, priorities -do- conflict. I'm scheduled to have my servant go with me to provide support for a book signing -- but hir spouse desperately wants to have the dining room painted before the in-laws come into town...(to me, these are pretty much equivalent crises -- maybe that's because I know all of my spouse's in-laws... and there are a couple that would make the weekend a complete fiasco because of shabby paint in the dining room!!!). What to do, what to do? Ideally, both my event and the spouse's painting job need to be taken care of, so we sit down and do what anyone ELSE would do... we work out a schedule that everyone can abide by, that takes into consideration things like outside jobs (which all of our members, servant - Keeper - or non-participant, have), spiritual necessities (because of the broad range of spiritual beliefs in our household, we have to manage multiple religious calendars and plan them in), and even, to some extent, some wiggle-room for emergent situations (when we can). In the end, we just do whatever we can to keep things as whole, sane, and healthy for everyone as possible.

Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 11/21/2010 2:35:01 AM >

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to KNelson)

Post #: 20

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