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mistoferin -> Control (9/2/2010 4:08:44 AM)

On the other side of the site a random profile popped up with this statement. "Control must be given, if it is taken it is not true control."

It sparked some thoughts in my coffee deficient brain. If the statement is true, what is control if taken? Is it coercion? Oppression? Domination?

If control is given, is it indeed true control? or just the illusion of control? especially if you believe that what is given can just as easily be taken back...



VaguelyCurious -> RE: Control (9/2/2010 5:28:18 AM)

The first google definition is 'control: power to direct or determine.'

Surely it doesn't matter how you get there-the only question is 'if I want thing x to happen will it happen?'

No?



phoenixmoonn13 -> RE: Control (9/2/2010 5:34:25 AM)

only thing i can say is when i submitted to master i gave him control of me. he sees my submisssion as a the gift and one he treasures deeply



crazyml -> RE: Control (9/2/2010 5:38:27 AM)

Meh... I think it's a bit of a silly statement. My jackass detector always goes off when I see rigid definitions like "true submission" "true dom" or, indeed, "true control".

I think this statement is gibberish dressed up as some intellectual pronouncement.

I don't ask my car to give me control - but I have control over it

My dog doesn't give me control, he obeys because he thinks I'm the Alpha Dawg.

I think control can be both given (The pilot gives control of the plane to me) or taken (The pilot takes control back from me on account of my not being able to fly a plane).

Some S types want control to be "taken", others "grant" it... I think it's a horses for courses thing - either is possible but whether it's one or the other will depend on the relationship.




Missokyst -> RE: Control (9/2/2010 6:06:08 AM)

I am going to go with what ml says up there. Control is control. Whether or not it is consensual is not relevant. Of course... it is not always a situation where the thing is permanant. I turn on the ignition and drive my car where I want. But there are times my car protests and refuses as when my water pump went out last month. The car got to sit it out at a mechanic while I walked.



Twoshoes -> RE: Control (9/2/2010 6:45:36 AM)

I've noticed people on this site like to imply that:

Control for BDSM purposes should first be given by the submissive.If taken without the consent, it would be abuse or manipulation.

I'm cool with that if it's a way to stay away from trouble. I guess they're specifically referring to the kind of control they want and not the all encompassing dictionary definition.



wandersalone -> RE: Control (9/2/2010 6:58:12 AM)

Just thinking (typing??) aloud here..... is it possible that control can both be taken and given at the same time.  I think that sometimes it is a more organic process that is more about the interplay between the two people rather than one person either taking control or the other ceding.

I dunno though, control is control. One person either has it or they don't and as long as the other person is ok with the other person having control how this happened is not that important - in my opinion.



CreativeDominant -> RE: Control (9/2/2010 7:03:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

On the other side of the site a random profile popped up with this statement. "Control must be given, if it is taken it is not true control."

It sparked some thoughts in my coffee deficient brain. If the statement is true, what is control if taken? Is it coercion? Oppression? Domination?

If control is given, is it indeed true control? or just the illusion of control? especially if you believe that what is given can just as easily be taken back...
Although the term "true control" does tend to clang in much the same manner as "true submissive" or "true dominant", it is an interesting question.  Coincidentally, I've had some conversation along these lines recently.

We've seen it posted on here by both dominants and submissives...more by submissives...that the choice to submit is the submissive's choice.  A dominant cannot control someone who does not yield, therefore he has no control until the submissive gives it to him, at least in the initial stages of getting to know one another. 

But...is it just in the initial stages?  It has also often been posted that the submissive can, at any time and...for some... depending on the level of involvement, say "that's it.  You no longer have control over this area or that area or, indeed, over me at all"  Now in the case of a certain area, the dominant can also choose to leave if an area of control is taken away from him but note that statement...an area of control taken (therefore it was given)away from him.

We have statements from submissives who declare that a dominant must be able to show them certain qualities to "compel" their submission and yet, while still retaining those qualities, other factors in the dominant's make-up or in life circumstances or in the submissive's make-up remove this "compulsion".

So, is control by the dominant...to some extent...an illusion because his control is at the whim/decision/tolerance of the submissive? 

Please don't take this as a rant...it certainly isn't meant in that manner.  These are just some of the things that came up in this conversation and have come up in the past in other conversations and which I ponder occasionally.  While I happily go along with the structure of a D/s dynamic and enjoy the fluidity of good D/s interactions, I am also able to look at the reality of the situation.

One of the questions you also asked is "what is control, if taken?  Coercion?  Oppression?  Domination?"  I would say it depends on the circumstances.  To these can be added 'Manipulation', 'Domineering', 'Abuse'...but again, it depends on the circumstances and the timing and...rightly or wrongly... the wants/needs of both parties.



NuevaVida -> RE: Control (9/2/2010 7:03:34 AM)

I can give all the control over that I have, but if he doesn't take it, then I've given it to emptiness.  He can take my control - forcibly (which would probably kill this relationship) or through influence.  For us, it's not one or the other - I give while he takes.  He takes while I give.  And as we step forward, a little more control is transferred over, gradually.  It's kind of just an evolution of the relationship for us.  We're in this together.  Control is transferred together.

I think statements like that tend to be narrow minded, limiting, and rather silly.  I'd have probably passed that profile by.



sexyred1 -> RE: Control (9/2/2010 7:12:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

So, is control by the dominant...to some extent...an illusion because his control is at the whim/decision/tolerance of the submissive? 



That is how I see it and always have. There is far too much semantics at hand here with the words "true" and "control".

Even if want to be "forced" I am still in control of that to a degree once I agree.



Twoshoes -> RE: Control (9/2/2010 7:13:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
I think statements like that tend to be narrow minded, limiting, and rather silly.  I'd have probably passed that profile by.


I think the purpose of that statement is to imply a certain amount of self-control and a willingness to be both patient and responsible on behalf of the author. (As opposed to assuming control of the submissive from the first sentence).

quote:


"Control must be given, if it is taken it is not true control."


Even if you don't like the semantics, I think it's a fancy way of saying: "I'm not one of those other Doms/Dommes who assumes all submissives submit to me instantly."



CreativeDominant -> RE: Control (9/2/2010 7:17:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

So, is control by the dominant...to some extent...an illusion because his control is at the whim/decision/tolerance of the submissive? 



That is how I see it and always have. There is far too much semantics at hand here with the words "true" and "control".

Even if want to be "forced" I am still in control of that to a degree once I agree.
Not only lovely but so intelligent.  [;)]



NuevaVida -> RE: Control (9/2/2010 7:23:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twoshoes

I think the purpose of that statement is to imply a certain amount of self-control and a willingness to be both patient and responsible on behalf of the author. (As opposed to assuming control of the submissive from the first sentence).


I didn't get that at all.  Then again, I don't know if what Erin quoted is a stand-alone statement or taken out of a greater context.  As a stand-alone statement, it is weak to me, and therefor I see it as silly.

quote:


It would be rather unfortunate if that kind of statement makes people stop reading profiles. Since it's in a profile, it's targetted towards people looking to start a new relationship, not develop an existing one.


If I were not in a relationship and looking to start one, I would pass that profile by, depending on what context the statement was said.  I tend to quirk my head at universal "true" statements, because I find most of them to be rather short sighted.  To me, it means you can't possibly envision any scenario in which the opposite could also be true, and I don't tend to align myself with people who limit their thinking like that.

quote:


Even if you don't like the semantics, I can't see what harm it could do to say that.


It causes no harm at all to say that. I'm simply giving my own personal views on it, the result of which would be I would pass that profile by as someone I would not be compatible with. 



mistoferin -> RE: Control (9/2/2010 7:26:39 AM)

Actually, the statement was the entirety of the profile. [:)]



mnottertail -> RE: Control (9/2/2010 7:29:55 AM)

Perhaps this is something to do with the remote for the TV?



mistoferin -> RE: Control (9/2/2010 7:32:32 AM)

quote:

I give while he takes. He takes while I give. And as we step forward, a little more control is transferred over, gradually. It's kind of just an evolution of the relationship for us. We're in this together. Control is transferred together.


This is basically how it has always been in my life also. An ongoing process. I believe that so many people view D/s and M/s relationships as being universally one side with control, the other with none...but it has been in my experience that I've never really seen such occur. At least not in relationships that were sustainable in the long term. Relationships are give and take. Granted, the balances of those in our relationships vs. vanilla relationships may differ, but I believe there still has to be that transfer for them to be workable.



DesFIP -> RE: Control (9/2/2010 7:34:16 AM)

Control can indeed be taken without it being coercion or assault. Consensual nonconsent. Rape play for example, you give permission for him to take control of you over your loud objections.

Consent, as always, has to be there for this to be ethical. In the case of my dog, who doesn't have the ability to understand what he is consenting to, I act in his best interests and take him to the vet for his inoculations.



mistoferin -> RE: Control (9/2/2010 7:36:08 AM)

quote:

Please don't take this as a rant...it certainly isn't meant in that manner. These are just some of the things that came up in this conversation and have come up in the past in other conversations and which I ponder occasionally. While I happily go along with the structure of a D/s dynamic and enjoy the fluidity of good D/s interactions, I am also able to look at the reality of the situation.


Oh I didn't take it as a rant at all. This is just one of those things that makes me go hmmmm. While it appears one way on the surface it's face changes a bit when you look at it from other angles or apply different influential circumstances.



leadership527 -> RE: Control (9/2/2010 9:20:00 AM)

Personally, I find the statement misses the point in what I think of as "control". Between Carol and I, the totality of the picture is that she gives control and I take it because she is submissive and I am dominant. If she was unwilling to give control it wouldn't work. If I was unwilling to take it, it wouldn't work. In my marriage, dominance and submission work hand in hand.



Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Control (9/2/2010 9:30:31 AM)

Oh this topic again. LOL! Seriously it's sort of a combination of both. Not to mention the control to influence things. Human beings in general manipulate all that is around them, using many different methods. Many people like to have some level of control, or trust in the control of others. It's actually sort of a mix of both on some level if you really think about it from 10,000 foot level. Varies from person to person. It's the social order of things.




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