Inviting Yourself Into Other People's Dynamics (Full Version)

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LadyPact -> Inviting Yourself Into Other People's Dynamics (7/16/2010 2:08:19 PM)

I may be watching too many episodes of True Blood.  If you've seen the show or read the books, one of the recurring points that the series makes is something that I think might be worth exploring.

A vampire may not enter your home unless you invite them in.

I'll bet you're wondering what this has to do with BDSM?  I'm glad you asked.

It seems to Me a lot of times around this place, we have a much different method than the way we interact with other people that we know involved in power dynamics in real life. 

We don't stop scenes involving other people, even if we think they are going wrong.  We put our faith in the top that the situation can be handled.  If in a public play space, we get a  DM.

We don't walk up to a submissive who hasn't come to us first, to tell them we think their Dom or Domme is abusing them.

We don't tell an Owner that they don't have the right to do with their property as they see fit, if no one involved in the dynamic has an issue with what is happening.

In areas like this, we have not been invited in.

Now, I want to explain a very clear difference between being not being invited in and being invited in.  Some examples of which.

If an s-type comes to us saying they are being abused, we have been invited in.

If a person posts their issue to a public board asking for assistance, we have been invited in. 

If a person is harming a non consensual third party, we have been invited in.

My personal favorite (though it doesn't apply to everyone) - If you are dealing with My boy, you have definitely invited Me in.  (I had to throw that in there for shits and giggles.)

There are other examples that I could give, but some of them could get the post pulled.  (That's usually sufficient to say so that people will know what I mean.)

I thought it might be interesting to see where other people draw the distinction.  How do you define where you have been invited in by other kinky people?  Real life vrs online?  In those cases where you haven't been invited in, do you chose to go in anyway?






VaguelyCurious -> RE: Inviting Yourself Into Other People's Dynamics (7/16/2010 2:29:04 PM)

I think I might end up disagreeing with you, Lady P. :S

IMO, if someone posts information in a public venue they cede control of it, and they cede control of how people interpret it. Don't want to be told your D is abusive? Don't give details about him to *thousands* of people (and I think sometimes we forget just how big the readership of these forums is).

This is not an intimate group of friends where you can reasonably expect to tell people to stfu about you, it's a *very* public arena.

Example: let's imagine something is bothering me. This thing is personal; if people spoke harshly to me about it I would be hurt. If I start a thread someone will be harsh, because this is the internet and it's what people do here. I know this.

There are a handful of posters on this site whose opinion I really value. So what do I do? I CMail one of you, I say 'this is my problem, would you mind giving me an opinion?', and I'm assured a thoughtful and honest answer from a valued source.

If people choose to take the route of posting personal problems in public then they need to own the risks involved.



LadyPact -> RE: Inviting Yourself Into Other People's Dynamics (7/16/2010 2:36:03 PM)

Sorry to inform you, VC, but you are agreeing with Me.  [:)]

In both cases (posting to the public board or asking a person friend for advice) it is a case of being invited in.  The door is being opened when the approach is made.  If it's on the board, you invite everyone.  In private, you are only asking the person that you are sending the correspondence. 



VaguelyCurious -> RE: Inviting Yourself Into Other People's Dynamics (7/16/2010 2:57:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Sorry to inform you, VC, but you are agreeing with Me.  [:)]
No need to apologise :P

quote:

In both cases (posting to the public board or asking a person friend for advice) it is a case of being invited in.  The door is being opened when the approach is made.  If it's on the board, you invite everyone.  In private, you are only asking the person that you are sending the correspondence. 

I thought you were suggesting that calling someone abusive on a thread was uninvited-I misunderstood (hey, it happens...). I get you now. [:)]



lally2 -> RE: Inviting Yourself Into Other People's Dynamics (7/16/2010 3:07:38 PM)

im not a butter-inner - i have to be invited.  i cant use my local club or munch scene cos i dont have one, but as an example would be the livery yard where i keep my horse.  two women there barge about thrusting themselves into everyones business and being a royal pain - its painful to watch sometimes.  people do invite me in and confide in me but i think thats because i dont force my opinions on anyone.

i realised the other day that im far better at giving advice, based on learning how to give advice on here and reading how others go about it.  the balance of 'its ok - now get youre shit together' is a really valuable lesson in being a listener and giving youre advice when its asked for.

otherwise i just keep out of it.



Malkinius -> RE: Inviting Yourself Into Other People's Dynamics (7/16/2010 3:09:14 PM)

Greetings Pact....

I guess that makes both of us vampires of a sort. Of course, since I mostly sleep during the day and come out only after dark......<grins>

I think you nailed what a well mannered person will do and how they will act. There is one exception that you only barely touched on. If we see something illegal or dangerous some of us may invite ourselves in. I am specifically not including scene play here. Some scenes are both dangerous and illegal in some places. However, if they are being done as public presentations it is not my place to interfere unless something has gone drastically wrong or medical attention is required. The screams of "OH SHIT!!!" from the top are good indications of that. I have a feeling you would and probably have done the same.

I did say may because it really depends on the person, what is happening and how much of an intervention we think is necessary. This is a personal judgement call and if we choose to do something, we have to take responsibility for ALL the ramifications of having done so.

Now, if someone comes to us for help or advice, as you say, we have been invited in. It goes back to the old never ask a question you don't want an answer to. Dutch Uncle (or Aunt) answers are not always what people want to hear no matter how good it may be for them. <grins>

You made a good list. It will be interesting to see what others have to say.

Be well...

Malkinius



LadyCimarron -> RE: Inviting Yourself Into Other People's Dynamics (7/16/2010 3:25:17 PM)

I agree with you on those points LP and its pretty much where I draw the line. I would go even further to say that sometimes how we question the dynamics of other's relationships is also a form of inviting ourselves in. I took a class once where the instructor cautioned us regarding how we question others. The simple question of "Why did you that?" is often perceived as a judgment because there is an implication that the listener needs to defend their actions. There are nuances about every relationship I know, that I don't understand. While I may want to understand it, it is really not important that I personally understand it or involve myself in it because it is not my relationship.

I also believe that if I ask you, just for my knoweledge, a specific question about your relationship; and it is explained to me, I should not then offer a differing or negative opinion of how you could or should do it, unless asked because in that situation I still invited myself in and am only allowed in to the extent that you are willing to indulge me, if that makes sense.



porcelaine -> RE: Inviting Yourself Into Other People's Dynamics (7/16/2010 4:03:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

There are other examples that I could give, but some of them could get the post pulled.  (That's usually sufficient to say so that people will know what I mean.)

I thought it might be interesting to see where other people draw the distinction.  How do you define where you have been invited in by other kinky people?  Real life vrs online?  In those cases where you haven't been invited in, do you chose to go in anyway?


LadyPact,

Great list and I concur. In regard to the question posed, I'm an observer that leaves people to their own devices unless they want my opinion or assistance. And I'm careful how far I extend my neck for the latter two. It's something I weigh out carefully based on several factors including severity and replication. If it's a routine cry for help I'm probably going to respond differently than I would to something less frequent.

As for the Internet, there's a real fixation on telling people who and what they are and defining relationships and everything in between based on what they expose or the other party infers from their remarks. We all make judgments and have opinions that may border on the favorable to outright disgust. However, I recognize their right to make their own decisions even when they're quasi clusterfucks that I can see a mile ahead. I may give advice or offer a suggestion if I have a connection with the individual, but I shy away from drawing a road map. I think there's value found in mistakes including those that leave us kissing the ground.

In terms of invitations, I'm amazed at the ideologies some possess. It's perfectly okay to put your business in a public forum, but heaven forbid the remarks are in opposition to what you desired or the individual looks askance at your partner. You provided the source and I'm a proponent for accepting ownership of my personal disclosures.

~porcelaine



Apocalypso -> RE: Inviting Yourself Into Other People's Dynamics (7/16/2010 4:15:21 PM)

I'd broadly agree with you LP.  A few more categories I'd add.

As Malkinius has said, there are situations with the potential for extreme danger, where I think it is sometimes acceptable for me.

Also, for me, there are people who I am so close to as a friend that I consider them to have the right to give me unsolicited opinions on my personal relationships.  That's rare though.  Currently, there are two people in my life in that position.  And, even there, part of the reason they have that right is because I know they'll drop a subject if I tell them to.  There's a slightly larger number of people who will take that from me.

That would pretty much be it as far as offline goes.

Online, it gets a bit more complicated.

If people post something asking for advice, or even outlining their personal situation, they're absolutely inviting people to share their opinion.  And while the initial post is theirs, the following discussion isn't.  And they certainly have no right to complain that people aren't giving them the advice or opinions they want.

Some of the more grey areas, with at least tentative opinions on them.

Does someone have the right to respond with a different point than the one the initial post was requesting opinion on?  Mostly yes.  As long as it isn't completely unrelated to the topic at hand.  People are to be expected to 'read between the lines' with this kind of thing.

Is it ok to draw on previous posts by the OP when responding?  Difficult one and mostly contextual.  Posters don't have a clean slate and it's unreasonable to expect others to act as if they do.  If someone has posted ten threads about different relationships over a year, all with the same content, it's valid to take that into account.  But, sometimes, I think it's tempting for people to do this in a way that isn't actually relevant.  At the extreme, there are very few cases where it would be legitimate to bring up someone's postings in P&R if they're posting in General BDSM.

Is it ok to bring up information from outside the forum, whether from other forums or real life?  Probably not, although it's unrealistic to not expect people to have those preconceptions when that's the case.  Unless you know someone's bullshitting, particuarly at someone else's expense, in which case it's the lesser of two evils.

Is it fair to expect the original poster to give information they're choosing not to, whether more details or an update on their situation?  (Which is obviously relevant to this, at least if I've guessed correctly on one of your inspirations for this thread).  No.  Ask if you want.   But people getting all whiny and butthurt if it doesn't happen is a bit pathetic.



HeavansKeeper -> RE: Inviting Yourself Into Other People's Dynamics (7/16/2010 4:17:36 PM)

I value our social contracts dearly. I feel they make the world civilized, and without them we are far less impressive than beasts. When the social contract is violated, the victim has damages and is invited in to seek restitution.

Example: I am at a restaurant and a different person, with a different party, at a different table is yelling at their server in a way that makes me uncomfortable. My evening is now affected by the screamers actions, thus I now have personal stake in the situation. I feel I would not be out of line to speak to that person. Would it be advisable to approach such a raving asshole? No, but I would feel justified doing it. (Perhaps, though, this is a different form of Lady Pact being involved if you mess with her boy?)

I feel that violators of social contracts no longer deserve the social protection of "mind your own business." If I see a person wearing latex paint as clothes, I feel entitled to share my opinion. Similar to the example coming below, they choose where they go and how they dress and behave. They knowingly shattered the status quo, which means opposition is invited. (In this instance, I would feel invited to congratulate them, the same way I congratulate any man with a proud handlebar mustache.)

BDSM clubs have a different social contract than restaurants, as such cruel words and physical violence do not invite me to be Batman. Because I am personally unhappy when I see violence and rage, I tend to avoid public play spaces. It is not my place to say when they have had enough, but I know I will want to.

A note about social contracts: They are built on assumption. Almost every element goes without saying, so it is very difficult to build principles on what is a violation. The general idea is that your actions should not significantly impact my life, and if they do, I have a say in it.



xxblushesxx -> RE: Inviting Yourself Into Other People's Dynamics (7/16/2010 4:17:44 PM)

They invite us in when they tell us the details of their relationship and ask for advice.

~Vampire Chrissy



IronBear -> RE: Inviting Yourself Into Other People's Dynamics (7/16/2010 4:20:29 PM)

LP, M'lady what you have written is also part of the core of being a Lady or Gentleman in Victorian terms. Indeed the only reason for me to interfere without being invited is if I believe that life or property is at risk of serious damage of even death/destruction, or to stop a crime both of which is just being a responsible person with some regard to the local society. 



Apocalypso -> RE: Inviting Yourself Into Other People's Dynamics (7/16/2010 4:22:46 PM)

Because I'm feeling contrary, I'm going to throw a spanner in the works.

If we accept that someone who posts the details of their personal life is inviting opinion, would that include the opinion of someone who believes that all sadists are actually abusers and posts accordingly?

(Not my view in any way, if anyone is dim enough to need that pointing out).



LadyCimarron -> RE: Inviting Yourself Into Other People's Dynamics (7/16/2010 4:30:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

Because I'm feeling contrary, I'm going to throw a spanner in the works.

If we accept that someone who posts the details of their personal life is inviting opinion, would that include the opinion of someone who believes that all sadists are actually abusers and posts accordingly?

(Not my view in any way, if anyone is dim enough to need that pointing out).



I think that people who post such generalized, negative statements about others are not inviting opinion, they are instead sowing discord. That being said, when they are responded to in a distasteful manner from other posters, they are reaping what they have sown.

(edited for spelling)



xxblushesxx -> RE: Inviting Yourself Into Other People's Dynamics (7/16/2010 4:38:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

Because I'm feeling contrary, I'm going to throw a spanner in the works.

If we accept that someone who posts the details of their personal life is inviting opinion, would that include the opinion of someone who believes that all sadists are actually abusers and posts accordingly?

(Not my view in any way, if anyone is dim enough to need that pointing out).



If someone asks for opinions, yes...they get all opinions; those they want, and those they don't want.



VaguelyCurious -> RE: Inviting Yourself Into Other People's Dynamics (7/16/2010 5:05:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

If we accept that someone who posts the details of their personal life is inviting opinion, would that include the opinion of someone who believes that all sadists are actually abusers and posts accordingly?

Absolutely, with the proviso that an opinion is also a personal detail (and therefore the opinionated person is inviting other people to have opinions about their opinion, so to speak).

ETA: how is that a spanner in the works?



juliaoceania -> RE: Inviting Yourself Into Other People's Dynamics (7/16/2010 5:17:04 PM)

quote:

How do you define where you have been invited in by other kinky people?  Real life vrs online?  In those cases where you haven't been invited in, do you chose to go in anyway?


I don't interact with groups of people, so I can't answer on the real life stuff


Online, if someone posts a question I answer it. If they include information in that opening post that leads me to believe they are being abused, etc, I will comment on that. I don't look at their profiles most of the time to get a "feel" for what they are saying... although others do, and when they do it is hard to ignore the information in the thread...

Recently a young submissive asked for advice, giving her age and her doms age in the OP, therefore including that into the thread. I commented several times I felt that the age difference in the context with some of what she was posting concerned me... that rode the line between being invited in, and not being invited in... but because she included that info, I felt it was up for grabs to discuss..

That is my line, did they bring it to the thread? If they didn't, how do we know?



porcelaine -> RE: Inviting Yourself Into Other People's Dynamics (7/16/2010 5:22:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

Because I'm feeling contrary, I'm going to throw a spanner in the works.

If we accept that someone who posts the details of their personal life is inviting opinion, would that include the opinion of someone who believes that all sadists are actually abusers and posts accordingly?

(Not my view in any way, if anyone is dim enough to need that pointing out).


The individuals that make statements along those lines don't view them as opinions, but see them as irrefutable facts instead. If you take note of the tone or other information shared it can be an intentional derail or completely off topic altogether. Sometimes it's inflammatory or meant to incite a specific person/s. But it garners attention nonetheless which is often the real influence behind its utterance.

Hearing that from a novice versus a well established idiot should warrant a different response. You might be inclined to be more tolerant and willing to educate the former where the latter is deserving of whatever he gets from those participating in the thread.

~porcelaine



Apocalypso -> RE: Inviting Yourself Into Other People's Dynamics (7/16/2010 5:45:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious
ETA: how is that a spanner in the works?
Very valid question.

It's because it's actually pretty easy for us all to thrash out a consensus that we should be able to post our unvarnished opinion on the thread of someone asking for advice, whether they like it or not.

Where that value is going to be tested is when we're talking about someone doing so when the majority of the board is going to find that opinion offensive.  And when it has happened, I do think that people often respond in a way that implies that person shouldn't be posting in that thread at all, not simply that their opinion is wrong.

That isn't necessarily mitigated by the fact the opinion is obviously stupid and ignorant



abuddingdom -> RE: Inviting Yourself Into Other People's Dynamics (7/16/2010 8:10:43 PM)

Great anology. That's one of the oldest and most resilient pieces of vampire lore, by the way......

A couple old chestnuts come to mind : the life is what happens when you make other plans one, and the damned if you do, damned if you don't one. There's no right or wrong answer, or more accurately way to go about getting involved in the affairs of others. Inviting yourself, getting invited, refusing to accept invitations or putting the denial blinders on and only looking forward are all ways of doing it, among others, but whatever one does a) there's no guarantee the outcome will be the one intended, if any, and b)if one gets involved, no matter how they do it(by invitation, by offering, etc) they'd best be prepared accept how that will affect their life. People often become resentful of help or advice, even when they ask for it - facts and history get twisted or re-written, the opinions or actions of people who weren't involved somehow supersede those of who were involved and relationships can be affected. Those are worst case scenarios, and possibly even a bit fearful or even paranoid, but we've all seen it happen, no? I mean, look what happens on these boards, much less in RL. I opine that, to begin, one has think hard and ultimately go with their gut when it comes to getting involved, then again they need to be prepared for how it will affect them, whether getting involved ends up being a positive or negative thing.



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