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Is "Master" an orientation, or a status? - 7/5/2010 12:11:34 AM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline 		Sorry if this question has been asked before. It seems to me that if the term "Master" refers to an orientation or temperment, then everyone with that temperment is automatically entitled to refer to themselves as a Master, regardless of age or level of experience. On the other hand, if the term denotes a status, then a person has to "earn" it, by attaining a certain degree of, well, mastery. i guess the same argument might apply to the term "slave". So, what do you think? Are you born a Master or slave, or do you have to earn the title?

pam
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RE: Is "Master" an orientation, or a status? - 7/5/2010 12:23:18 AM   
Nineveh


Posts: 1299
Joined: 2/5/2008
Status: offline 		There are a lot of different contexts for that term.  Personally I usually prefer to think of myself as a Dominant, which is an orientation I was born with.  Master, for me, is something that I am to a specific person (currently nobody) and even when there is a person who I am the Master of, that doesn't mean I am a Master outside of that relationship.

That doesn't change the fact that the word is used in a lot of different ways by a lot of different people.  Also, as compared to the word slave Master is not as specific.  The fact that I am someone's Master doesn't mean she is my slave, although she might be.  She might also be a submissive.  I would say that slave is an orientation.  Someone may think they are a slave and not have experienced it and be wrong about it, but that doesn't mean that they need to be in a TPE relationship to be a slave. 

So, to answer the question, for me Master is a status, slave is an orientation.

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RE: Is "Master" an orientation, or a status? - 7/5/2010 12:33:15 AM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline 		Thank You, Nineveh. That was a very clear answer.

pam

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RE: Is "Master" an orientation, or a status? - 7/5/2010 12:44:25 AM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nineveh

There are a lot of different contexts for that term.  Personally I usually prefer to think of myself as a Dominant, which is an orientation I was born with.  Master, for me, is something that I am to a specific person (currently nobody) and even when there is a person who I am the Master of, that doesn't mean I am a Master outside of that relationship.

That doesn't change the fact that the word is used in a lot of different ways by a lot of different people.  Also, as compared to the word slave Master is not as specific.  The fact that I am someone's Master doesn't mean she is my slave, although she might be.  She might also be a submissive.  I would say that slave is an orientation.  Someone may think they are a slave and not have experienced it and be wrong about it, but that doesn't mean that they need to be in a TPE relationship to be a slave. 

So, to answer the question, for me Master is a status, slave is an orientation.


+1. Well said.


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RE: Is "Master" an orientation, or a status? - 7/5/2010 3:02:39 AM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline 		I've tended to regard "Master" as reflecting a higher plane of relationship committment. IE, if Dominant equates to vanilla man, then Master equates to husband.

So you're no more born a Master than you are a husband. Though, since we don't all marry (ahem), I s'pose you can be born (or nurtured) to Master material; to be better equipped mentally and emotionally to embrace that higher committment....

Focus.

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RE: Is "Master" an orientation, or a status? - 7/5/2010 3:29:59 AM   
Murin


Posts: 11
Joined: 7/4/2010
Status: offline 		thats a very interesting question (gungadin) and a most excellent answer by Nineveh.

I can only speak for Myself, but I agree with Nineveh. I consider Myself a Dominant, though I began as something else. Even when I was a collared submissive I found Myself becoming more and more a Dominant. As the years progressed after Mistress passed away I found that what I truly was deep inside Myself was not what I had started as. I know this might seem strange to alot of people but bear with Me in this rambling.

I've seen things on chat sites which have made Me vomit at the audacity. An example is the 18yr old ~boy~ who claimed to have 6 years of experience as a Master. (Mind you this was on the mobile chat site AirG) For seemingly alot of folks merely putting the tag of Master before their name is good enough but I truly think that there are 3 qualitites that make a Man a Master (or even a Woman a Mistress for that matter)

The first is what gungadin eluded to in his original post. Age and Experience. This is something that I would have to say would be a contributing factor to the definition of a Master. The word master by definition means someone who has mastered something in this case their own selves. That I believe is the first key to it. "Know thyself" A master would have to be someone in My view that had learned the depths of their own souls and come to grips with their own inner demons (everyone has them).

The second is what Nineveh eluded in his post
quote:



There are a lot of different contexts for that term. Personally I usually prefer to think of myself as a Dominant, which is an orientation I was born with. Master, for me, is something that I am to a specific person (currently nobody) and even when there is a person who I am the Master of, that doesn't mean I am a Master outside of that relationship.

That doesn't change the fact that the word is used in a lot of different ways by a lot of different people. Also, as compared to the word slave Master is not as specific. The fact that I am someone's Master doesn't mean she is my slave, although she might be. She might also be a submissive. I would say that slave is an orientation. Someone may think they are a slave and not have experienced it and be wrong about it, but that doesn't mean that they need to be in a TPE relationship to be a slave.

So, to answer the question, for me Master is a status, slave is an orientation.


I've always held the belief that I will only take the title of Master ~after~ I have earned it either by gaining the wisdom required for such a thing or by actually owning a girl (only in real time because I personally think that online collars are a complete joke, which I'll probably end up posting something about in the future). I consider those that claim the title of Master who in reality are the Master of Nothing to be quite humorous especially if they do not exhibit the aforementioned qualities of having mastered themselves, neither having the age nor wisdom as well.

the last quality I believe is essential is mental attitude though this could easily be grouped in with knowing oneself. Knowledge about the Lifestyle is also quite essential both about the Dominant aspects but also about the submissive aspects. If asked I truly think that a Dominant should at least spend some time as a submissive. It is said in the Heremtic Order of the Golden Dawn that for one to truly "master" the Elements one must learn them by experiencing them. And so the same applies to being a Master in the BDSM Lifestyle. How can One truly claim to be a submissive's Master if they have not experienced what it is that They are attempting to master? My sister, a slave to the core, agrees with Me on this point. though she refers to Me as a master I don't think of Myself that way because I have yet to completely master Myself. I consider Myself as Nineveh does, a Dominant but in My case more of a old dominant pervert.

forgive My ramblings I'll shut up now *laughs*


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RE: Is "Master" an orientation, or a status? - 7/5/2010 3:36:54 AM   
Murin


Posts: 11
Joined: 7/4/2010
Status: offline
quote:


I've tended to regard "Master" as reflecting a higher plane of relationship committment. IE, if Dominant equates to vanilla man, then Master equates to husband.

So you're no more born a Master than you are a husband. Though, since we don't all marry (ahem), I s'pose you can be born (or nurtured) to Master material; to be better equipped mentally and emotionally to embrace that higher committment....

Focus.




I also agree with this.

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RE: Is "Master" an orientation, or a status? - 7/5/2010 4:55:42 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		~ FR ~

I'm a tad old fashion in this and many other ways. I earned the title of Master when I collared my first slave. I am still a master but a slaveless one. Our Gorean friends hold that a man who own a slave is a Master and when he has no slave he is  Free man and thus the term Master reflects on hos ownership of slaves. However it is custom for a Gorean slave (kajira/kajirus) to refer to all Free men as Masters.

On the other hand, I am the Master of Bruin Cottage (my home) and from a Victorian perspective, this is the correct usage. In others non BDSM or Lifestyle areas I have earned the use of Master in such things as martial arts, calligraphy/illumination (9thC Irish - a-la Book of Kells). I also hold a Masters Degree so in other situations I may be refereed to as Master as I am in lodge too.  Thus when the term Master is added on, there may be a good reason for it especially when it has been earned or recognised by one's peer group and other associates/friends in a specific area of which you frequent. Some of coure just slap the title on their ass cheek because it sounds cool and with the false hope it will automatically give them credibility and attract uncollared sub/slaves to kneel at their tootsies


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RE: Is "Master" an orientation, or a status? - 7/5/2010 5:01:14 AM   
81song


Posts: 293
Joined: 1/22/2005
Status: offline 		I was thinking the same thing while looking at some profiles. How can some be a Domme at the age of 18 or 19? That being asked it could be that a person does know at a young age what they are which is good. But do they have the experience? One must start some where so I do not see a thing wrong in anyway as far as age but as a sub it would make me very caution as it should be.I find the best Domme have some time under their belt and at times I am amazed at how how they do know and how much I still have to learn.

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RE: Is "Master" an orientation, or a status? - 7/5/2010 7:07:48 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I think they're all personality traits. However just because you feel this way doesn't mean you'll be any good at it. It requires more than an inborn trait, you still need to learn skills, especially relationship skills.

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RE: Is "Master" an orientation, or a status? - 7/5/2010 7:18:00 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		I consider a Master to be someone who is recognized by others for their skills and their conduct.  For example, there is a local "Master" who contacted a sub under my protection and dropped hints that I might be misinterpreting the "protector" relationship (he's Gorean and didn't approve of me showing caring).  That's breaking protocol - something that a genuine Master doesn't do.  (He's also not taking care of himself and not ensuring that his slave will be able to function on her own after he passes away, but that's another story.)  Conversely, my ex sub kat met a man who owns his own business, has thirty years of single tail experience at the expert level, and was straight up about explaining what he was looking for and what he expected from any submissive.  That's a Master.


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RE: Is "Master" an orientation, or a status? - 7/5/2010 9:13:57 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		It all depends on who you ask.

In the leather community, it is a title you earn.  However, some leather communities are amazing, others are cesspools of idiocy and  you never know how they earned it.

Online, it just takes typing it in, some online communities are amazing, others are cesspools of idiocy and  you never know how they earned it.

Real world, it takes a partner calling you that, some partners are amazing, others are cesspools of idiocy and  you never know how they earned it.

Bottom line, in my opinion, masters are idiots till I interact enough with them to know if they are amazing or idiots.

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RE: Is "Master" an orientation, or a status? - 7/5/2010 9:27:42 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

It all depends on who you ask.

In the leather community, it is a title you earn.  However, some leather communities are amazing, others are cesspools of idiocy and  you never know how they earned it.

Online, it just takes typing it in, some online communities are amazing, others are cesspools of idiocy and  you never know how they earned it.

Real world, it takes a partner calling you that, some partners are amazing, others are cesspools of idiocy and  you never know how they earned it.

Bottom line, in my opinion, masters are idiots till I interact enough with them to know if they are amazing or idiots.



Isn't this how you feel about everyone? (runs away)

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RE: Is "Master" an orientation, or a status? - 7/5/2010 9:35:43 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		Personally, my orientation is "switch," and Mistress, slave, submissive, pet, top, bottom, or other dynamic labels describe the interaction with a specific person. I don't have a problem with someone using Master if they are actively seeking a M/s relationship, and would not be happy with a submissive or a bottom or other dynamic. Same goes for "unowned slaves," if they will only be fulfilled by a M/s relationship.

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RE: Is "Master" an orientation, or a status? - 7/5/2010 9:36:09 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Bottom line, in my opinion, masters are idiots till I interact enough with them to know if they are amazing or idiots.


Isn't this how you feel about everyone? (runs away)


Pretty much.  The reality is people show who they are pretty quickly and idiocy and amazingness tend to stand out rather distinctly.

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RE: Is "Master" an orientation, or a status? - 7/5/2010 9:52:00 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

Sorry if this question has been asked before. It seems to me that if the term "Master" refers to an orientation or temperment, then everyone with that temperment is automatically entitled to refer to themselves as a Master, regardless of age or level of experience. On the other hand, if the term denotes a status, then a person has to "earn" it, by attaining a certain degree of, well, mastery. i guess the same argument might apply to the term "slave". So, what do you think? Are you born a Master or slave, or do you have to earn the title?

pam


It's just an identification marker, nothing more important than that outside of personal relationships.  Inside personal relationship, it can be something more, but that is down to the individuals concerned.
Personally, I don't believe you can be born a Master in the same way you aren't born 'Pam'.

the.dark.

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RE: Is "Master" an orientation, or a status? - 7/5/2010 9:55:40 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		It's a status. 

As much as people would like to proclaim that it's a self appointed orientation, it isn't.  There really is a difference between something you would like to be and something you really are.  A person can be born with certain traits that many would consider Dominant (good leadership capabilities and such) but until they are utilized, there's no benefit involved.  While the potential might be there, it's not of very much consequences because nothing has been done with it.

Until you use those capabilities effectively in controlling another person's life, they are little more than untapped resources.  That's not instantaneous either, in My opinion.  You may get someone to call you Master at your request, but have you really Mastered that person?  The only answer to that lies in how effective you really are in the way you have established your authority and control.  In most cases, that's going to depend on the time and investment that you have made in that person and in yourself.  Let life throw a few challenges in your way and you'll see if you have Mastered them or not.  That comes with time and experience.


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RE: Is "Master" an orientation, or a status? - 7/5/2010 10:39:41 AM   
txurinal


Posts: 209
Joined: 9/26/2009
Status: offline 		To truly be a MASTER, one earns that status by the way HE treats submissives. It takes more than weilding a whip to make a MASTER. It is about not only his perception of HIMSELF, but how HE treats submissives

When owned, MASTER was never condescending or cruel for the sake of being cruel. HE treated HIS slave as a valuable resource to be usd, and yes abused at times, but always caring for HIS property.

When this slave meets someone who calls HIMSELF "MASTER" slave will adress HIM as such even if the MASTER falls far from the ideal of what most think a MASTER should be and in those instancesmerely uses the word "MASTER" as a form of address

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RE: Is "Master" an orientation, or a status? - 7/5/2010 10:42:11 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		Whatever works for you is good with me.

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RE: Is "Master" an orientation, or a status? - 7/5/2010 10:44:12 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

Sorry if this question has been asked before. It seems to me that if the term "Master" refers to an orientation or temperment, then everyone with that temperment is automatically entitled to refer to themselves as a Master, regardless of age or level of experience. On the other hand, if the term denotes a status, then a person has to "earn" it, by attaining a certain degree of, well, mastery. i guess the same argument might apply to the term "slave". So, what do you think? Are you born a Master or slave, or do you have to earn the title?

pam


I don't think one is born a Master (Mistress) or a slave -- I think that those are relational terms... one is a Master if one holds authority over another individual... one is a slave if one yields said authority... AND if the relationship is one that uses the terms "master" and "slave" to denote that dynamic.

I do, however, think that individuals have an inherent tendency to be either dominant or submissive... it's a linear scale from absolutely dominant in all situations to absolutely submissive in all situations, and individuals land, by nature, somewhere on that line. Unless one is balanced perfectly in the middle (which is really rare), most individuals tend to gravitate more towards one end or the other. Anyone can go in any direction, and sometimes a situation will force someone who is naturally more one way to spend time behaving as if they were the other way... but that's usually a pretty uncomfortable place for everyone involved.

IMO, "dominant" and "submissive" can apply to anyone at any time, but Master/slave are based on a given relationship at a given time, and, provided that the dynamic is in place, on the preferences of the individuals involved.

Calla


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