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Group Think?! - 7/1/2010 9:18:59 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		It's a fact that when people get together and form a bond that they do start to think alike on a variety of issues. I think that to some extent that group think is necessary since without it, I suspect that it would be very difficult to maintain a constructive group dynamic that benefits both the group and the people in the group. Nationalism is a good thing and is a broader scope of the group think. But, it has been shown that Nationalism taken to extremes can have negative effects to both the group and the indivdiuals.

The liftstyle communities are small groups spread out all over the place. These small groups are actually more at risk of developing group think tendencies than larger more diverse groups. I see time and time again that new people are encouraged to venture out to the groups but yet, sometimes I think the warning label or fine print is missed about getting out to these groups.

I am a strong advocate for individualism within the exploration of this lifestyle choice and see this group think to be a detriment to this individualism. But, it's not without irony that I don't believe that the individualism should be at the expense of the group either. It does seem that there is a grey line that is not all that clear. So where do you see the line? When does group think become bad within this lifestyle and when is it good. When is individualism to the benefit of the group and harmful?

what are your thougths

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RE: Group Think?! - 7/1/2010 9:22:44 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		To over simplify it........I think it is good when it is supportive of one another. Bad when it demands everyone conforms to concepts that should be individualistic.

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RE: Group Think?! - 7/1/2010 9:29:49 AM   
StoicSadist


Posts: 13
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

To over simplify it........I think it is good when it is supportive of one another. Bad when it demands everyone conforms to concepts that should be individualistic.


+ about a bajillion.....

Your kink may not be my kink....but I'm a "victim" of a very small community where I live. Unfortunately, the biggest pastime here is gossip.....and what happens in the group may or may not stay there, if the wrong person "disagrees" with you and runs out of things to say to their kink-ish 'nilla friends....

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RE: Group Think?! - 7/1/2010 9:34:35 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Oh don't get me wrong........if I am really disturbed by someone's kink I have zero problem voicing my feelings. I do not feel the need to be supportive of everything that is covered under the proverbial kink blanket. Any group that would be, I wouldn't be a part of. 

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Group Think?! - 7/1/2010 9:45:06 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		KoM,

I struggle with that issue constantly. I was never one for groups when I was younger and outside of bdsm don't tend to be a group person at all. I am a gun loving bleeding heart liberal. I am a meat eater who believes in animal rights. I am very much into education and providing safe environments in bdsm and yet I rail against mentor's and protectors.

So, how to navigate being IN the scene and deal with the issues I feel without being destructive to the scene as a whole or to me isn't something I have found a way to navigate with grace. I recently called a large and important bdsm group to task for what I was was some serious dysfunction and it cost me. However, they changed their rules to reflect the long standing issue and so I feel vindicated but it is more than a little a pyrrhic victory.

I have always said that I find it a bit suspicious if someone who has supposedly been around a long time but have never spent time in the scene. I also tend to look down upon those who make the scene their whole life. I tend to find common ground with those who have spent time in the scene but stepped back.

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RE: Group Think?! - 7/1/2010 10:48:10 AM   
MarcEsadrian


Posts: 852
Joined: 8/24/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
I am a strong advocate for individualism within the exploration of this lifestyle choice and see this group think to be a detriment to this individualism. But, it's not without irony that I don't believe that the individualism should be at the expense of the group either. It does seem that there is a grey line that is not all that clear. So where do you see the line? When does group think become bad within this lifestyle and when is it good. When is individualism to the benefit of the group and harmful?


I tend to feel "group think" serves everyone well when it forms an umbrella of rational discussion and advocacy for general freedom of thought where knowledge, ideas and philosophies can be exchanged maturely. It likewise serves as an example that our lifestyle choices are not rare, outlier examples of criminality; that we are a solid demographic of people from various walks of life spanning the full gamut of intellect and breeding. In short, good "groupthink" is good PR.

At the same time, I don't expect all forms of D/s interest or intensity to be validated by group think, and I would never expect it to. I see the popular collective consensus, so long as it's not too ignorant or authoritarian, to stand as a general social icon for my interests, but it needn't reflect all my intensities and passions; it just needs to reflect the general practice in a positive way that encourages overall social tolerance and recognition.

As for individualism, I would suggest it becomes harmful when, paired with that individualism, comes a healthy serving of stupid. We occasionally see where moronic decisions between two people end up the subject of public legal discourse, and in an attempt to invoke the wisdom or practices of the collective BDSM culture for their defense (which they either digested poorly or just used as a scapegoat for irresponsible behavior), they end up harming the public image of the group as a whole.

The razor line between individuality and group think is accountability for one's own individual actions. The collective cannot and should not be responsible for one's idiocy and lack of sound judgment, but sometimes I think others would make it so. Intelligent individuality is good for the collective, to keep it from becoming too stale and hung up on its own assumed "laws". When such individuals contribute to the group to shake it up a little toward openness and intellectual honesty, its scope is expanded.

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RE: Group Think?! - 7/1/2010 10:54:58 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Oddly enough, I believe a term like "group think" can be twisted up in a variety of ways.  Depending on the slant that someone puts on it, this can be either positive or negative.  For example, it is group think in many lifestyle communities that if you don't own a person, you have no right to touch them without their (or their owner's) consent.  This absolutely benefits the individual who doesn't want to be groped.  At the same time, another individual who would prefer that mentality wasn't in place, may decide that he really thinks he should have the right to paw any hot young thing coming in the door could say his 'personal expression' is being stifled.

The question you pose is very difficult to answer.  I don't believe that the group has the right to harm the individual and at the same time, I don't believe the individual has the right to harm the group.  The potential for both of those certainly exists, so how does a group try to achieve a mentality where individualism is encouraged and expressed without it being detrimental?





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RE: Group Think?! - 7/1/2010 11:53:23 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		I have to preface my remarks by saying that I and mine lean a bit heavily into the "individualism" end of the model, so take what I say with a grain of that particular salt. *chuckles*

I think that, for us, it was pretty clear that there was a point where we were just -way- too outre for the local groups to deal with -- what we were was so far into extremes in so many areas that it was difficult for people to be able to figure out how we fit in, and at the same time, we were so visible that we were concerned that newcomers, especially, wouldn't understand that we'd been doing this a LONG time, and that what we are had taken a -long- time and a really specific mix of people to develop... and that trying to do what we we were doing could be traumatic for the inexperienced or uninitiated (In fact, in some cases, even for us it was -still- traumatic!). It was, in the end, our choice to modify what we presented in public to enable people to get to know us a bit better, and to allow the dynamics of the larger organization to flow, without this big ol' Bladewing "rock" blocking the stream of ideas. For a couple of groups where one or more of our members had become pretty ingrained, it actually also meant walking away for a while, to give the group room to figure out the new shape that it wanted to take, and then, when we -did- come back, doing so in a way that didn't overwhelm the group.

What was most fascinating to me as an experience, though, was coming back to a group that we'd been away from for a while, and finding, to our disappointment, that the intervening time had, if anything, made the group -more- insular and attached to "this is the -right- way to do this" than they'd been when we left. For this particular group, it meant that we only stayed with the group for about 3 months, mentioned our concerns a few times to rather hostile response, and then quietly faded back into the woodwork. It didn't seem right to us to expect the group to change on our account, but it was also pretty clear that we weren't going to be able to stay under the current philosophical bent.

I think that I look for groups that are welcoming and are pretty open to learning about another person's way of doing things, even among those who would never do it themselves. I also tend to look for larger groups, rather than smaller groups, as it has been my experience that, when public groups are involved, the smaller the group, the harder it is for people who participate in less common ways to be accepted. I am one of those people who is happy to provide assistance, but not so happy to discover that the "assistance" that is expected of me is to -make- someone change the way they're doing things "for their own good"... I find that that particular phrase really irks me, and I've encountered it several times lately in local gatherings. I am a firm believer in personal freedom -- including the freedom to be an idiot, if that is one's calling. Expecting me to join the lynch mob just because everyone else thinks it's the "only" solution... not going to happen.

Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 7/1/2010 11:58:41 AM >

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RE: Group Think?! - 7/1/2010 12:04:30 PM   
jujubeeMB


Posts: 723
Joined: 1/8/2010
Status: offline 		I've never been in a group in my life. Seriously. I don't even feel entirely apart of this group here, though I wish I did. Sometimes it gets extremely lonely, but I just have never fit completely into any group I've ever encountered, generally because I won't shut up if I see something wrong going on. I am constantly learning and growing from the experiences of other people, but on a much more one-on-one level.

I think individualism benefits this group, specifically, because it's impossible to say "one size fits all" and be done with it in BDSM (or any relationship). I think it also behooves us to get constructively criticized once in awhile, and only an individual can really do that successfully.

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RE: Group Think?! - 7/1/2010 12:11:21 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		hug

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RE: Group Think?! - 7/1/2010 1:04:27 PM   
jujubeeMB


Posts: 723
Joined: 1/8/2010
Status: offline 		Aww

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RE: Group Think?! - 7/1/2010 10:06:06 PM   
georgeinca


Posts: 30
Joined: 8/2/2008
Status: offline 		For me, "groupthink" can mean two things:

1) A bunch of people who have similar interests/beliefs/likes/dislikes, who enjoy spending time together and conversing together because they're comfortable with each other because they share those interests/whatever. This would be Good groupthink. This would also include healthy and respectful differences of opinion, but still have that level of comfort that comes from sharing.

2) A bunch of sheep following some demagogue because they can't be arsed to think for themselves. This would be Bad groupthink.

The boards here have lots of 1). I like that. I've bottled up my interests/desires in this area too long, feeling like I'm some kind of sick/insane/perverted/outlier/weirdo/misfit. Being here tells me "Hey, I'm not alone, I'm not sick, I'm not crazy, and I can fit in here." Good groupthink. I like.

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RE: Group Think?! - 7/1/2010 10:22:50 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I belong to an academic discipline in which part of our "socialization" into the "group" is to learn about the infighting, the rifts, the personal antagonism between theorists, and that these squabbles still impact the field...

I went to this conference this last spring and they had decided to ignore the boycott against arizona based on immigration law... me and another grad student I am close to spoke out. We did so against the "group", the reason why? We both held this issue near and dear. I am willing to throw years of work down the drain for a good cause....

I don't see the "lifestyle" as a group I feel it is worth investing in emotionally. I give my all to a group I join. I do not want to put up with infighting, whose flogger is bigger, etc etc etc. I am also fairly shy in person. I would rather watch people in the corner than be the life of the party (although I am gregarious when in a large crowd and never seem to be able to stay in the corner because I love people too). Basically I have to deal with this kind of pressure in my career life, and when I am home I just wannabe with my man and doing what makes him happy...

I do not know if that makes sense... I mean, I throw parties, etc, in fact perhaps most of the time I am too socially busy to get too involved in group think in the lifestyle

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RE: Group Think?! - 7/1/2010 10:34:41 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

I've never been in a group in my life. Seriously. I don't even feel entirely apart of this group here, though I wish I did.
jujubee, I don't know you very well (so ignore me entirely if I'm wrong) but I've noticed that many people who say this seem to hold the idea of 'belonging' or 'feeling part of a group' to a much higher standard than everyone else does-you (you in the generic) don't have to buy into the entire groupthink to be part of the group.

You don't have to always agree with everyone, you don't have to always say the right thing, most groups will not kick you out if you occasionally put your foot in it/take an unpopular stance/have an argument-they might well gossip about you behind your back but that doesn't mean they suddenly don't consider you a  part of the group.

As far as I can see the best indicator of whether or not you're in a group (generic you again) is if the group would a) notice and b) miss you, were you to go away-it's not something you can judge or determine for yourself; whether or not you're part of a group has as much (if not more) to do with other members' perceptions of your status as it does with your own.


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RE: Group Think?! - 7/1/2010 10:43:35 PM   
LPslittleclip


Posts: 1163
Joined: 9/29/2007
Status: offline 		going to group events like munches are good to see what is out there and meet others. the boards are good to learn things and get ideas. so both have good points. as far as going to a event and being bullied/encouraged to do something that they might not otherwise do can be disquieting. it would be best to have a escort if possible. there are always dangers to going and meeting new folks as well as just being a lurker that never gets release.
my advise would be to get info on who folks are get references and check them out. have a escape route or safe call. be cautious but look and see what there is to see.

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RE: Group Think?! - 7/1/2010 11:17:59 PM   
jujubeeMB


Posts: 723
Joined: 1/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious
jujubee, I don't know you very well (so ignore me entirely if I'm wrong) but I've noticed that many people who say this seem to hold the idea of 'belonging' or 'feeling part of a group' to a much higher standard than everyone else does-you (you in the generic) don't have to buy into the entire groupthink to be part of the group.


You're probably completely right, but here's the thing: I was raised by two moms but I'm not gay and so not in the gay community though not really comfortable with the straight, I'm not part of any religion and never was, I moved nine times as a child/adolescent and changed schools and friends each time, I don't know WHAT to do with my life career-wise and have no work community, relationship-wise I'm vanilla as hell except for my kink which makes me too dark for vanilla and too independent for D/s, the US doesn't believe my parents should get to marry so I don't feel I truly belong to this country, and I don't like sports so I can't even yell at TV screens with four million other sports lovers.

Sorry for the rant. I'm having a really bad night, and a bit of an identity crisis.

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RE: Group Think?! - 7/1/2010 11:29:11 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious
jujubee, I don't know you very well (so ignore me entirely if I'm wrong) but I've noticed that many people who say this seem to hold the idea of 'belonging' or 'feeling part of a group' to a much higher standard than everyone else does-you (you in the generic) don't have to buy into the entire groupthink to be part of the group.


You're probably completely right, but here's the thing: I was raised by two moms but I'm not gay and so not in the gay community though not really comfortable with the straight, I'm not part of any religion and never was, I moved nine times as a child/adolescent and changed schools and friends each time, I don't know WHAT to do with my life career-wise and have no work community, relationship-wise I'm vanilla as hell except for my kink which makes me too dark for vanilla and too independent for D/s, the US doesn't believe my parents should get to marry so I don't feel I truly belong to this country, and I don't like sports so I can't even yell at TV screens with four million other sports lovers.

Sorry for the rant. I'm having a really bad night, and a bit of an identity crisis.


The beauty of CM is here you can be exactly what you are and still be accepted. We're all a bit off on some things, we're all very unique in different ways. You can be as vanilla or D/s as you are, as straight/bi/gay or any other orientation as you are...the one thing that will make people react is you being as sad as you are. Don't try to be anything, just be.

By react I mean, in a positive way. That aftercare thread debacle may have created a bad impression, I think you'll find that most people here really do want to help others as much as they can.

And THAT I think is the benefit of groups, the disadvantage is the cliqueness, elitism and stifling that goes on in them. I've never been much of one for conformity personally, I tend to eventually shy away from groups when they have an expectation of that, which I have found incredibly common.


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RE: Group Think?! - 7/2/2010 1:52:49 AM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

Sorry for the rant. I'm having a really bad night, and a bit of an identity crisis.
No worries-I based my post on a generalisation, it's totally fine to point that out. I'm sorry you're having a bad night.

I get what you're saying-I'm an Iraqi Jew in a country not all that comfortable with Iraqis or Jews, I'm bisexual (which makes the lesbians *and* the straights uncomfortable-not lesbian enough for the lesbians, too lesbian for everyone else, and don't even *ask* how the Iraqis would feel about it) and I maintain that all sport other than ice hockey is deadly dull and *bad for your health* (ice hockey being especially bad for your health but exhilarating to watch so I don't care).

What I've had to bear in mind is that other people don't necessarily see me like that-nobody has a big sign over their head saying 'Iraqi Jewish Unpatriotic Queer(ish) Kinkster' (well, apart from maybe during Pride...). People don't think about other people in terms of adjectives like that-they think of me as VC, of you as jujubee (or [insert your real name here]). You think you don't fit in because x,y,z. They think you fit in  because you're funny and clever and you know all the best drinking games, or whatever.

Oh, and as an aside, there's no such thing as 'too independent for D/s'. There's 'too independent for a D/s relationship with person X', but from what I can see the beauty of this stuff is there's always going to be someone who wants what you're offering

I hope your bad night will be followed by a better morning.


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RE: Group Think?! - 7/2/2010 2:12:38 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		The trouble I'm having with this thread is that I've always understood "Groupthink" to refer to a very specific syndrome where groups of people can come to faulty decisions because the dynamic of the group (which may or may not be lead by an individual or clique) makes debate or critical discussion taboo.

Now you can say a whole lot of things about the CM forum .... but there is a shit load of critical discussion and debate here!

One of the reasons I enjoy the CM forum more than others is because it's one of the least "cliquey" or "groupthinky" boards I've ever hung out on. We have a very diverse collection of views and opinions here, there is a lot of dissent - and (importantly) dissent is much more likely to be respected and debated in a grown up way here than on many other boards.

Sure... there are "sets" of people who have common outlooks, and we'll agree vigorously with each other on threads - But I can honestly say, that the appeal for me of this place is that the notional list of posters I stalk includes a majority of people who have very very divergent outlooks to me - but they're interesting, reasoned, and challenging.

I think, where it comes to groupthink, the CM boards are one of the least susceptible environments out there.



quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

It's a fact that when people get together and form a bond that they do start to think alike on a variety of issues. I think that to some extent that group think is necessary since without it, I suspect that it would be very difficult to maintain a constructive group dynamic that benefits both the group and the people in the group. Nationalism is a good thing and is a broader scope of the group think. But, it has been shown that Nationalism taken to extremes can have negative effects to both the group and the indivdiuals.

The liftstyle communities are small groups spread out all over the place. These small groups are actually more at risk of developing group think tendencies than larger more diverse groups. I see time and time again that new people are encouraged to venture out to the groups but yet, sometimes I think the warning label or fine print is missed about getting out to these groups.

I am a strong advocate for individualism within the exploration of this lifestyle choice and see this group think to be a detriment to this individualism. But, it's not without irony that I don't believe that the individualism should be at the expense of the group either. It does seem that there is a grey line that is not all that clear. So where do you see the line? When does group think become bad within this lifestyle and when is it good. When is individualism to the benefit of the group and harmful?

what are your thougths

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Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Group Think?! - 7/2/2010 3:24:15 AM   
mstrjx


Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		A little outside the box...

Let's take religion. You might be religious, you might not. You might go to church, you might not, but I hope you at least have gone to church at least once to see where I'm going with this.

There are those that need 'church', that NEED to be part of the group, because they require that sense of community to help them focus/form and maintain their opinion/whatever.

There are those that do not require the trappings of community because they can handle their personal business independently, through whatever method.

I have been part of BDSM groups, off and on. I loathe munches, but play parties are all right (even better when I participate). If you find being part of a group an opportunity to learn, you can do that, but you can also read good books. And if you want to wish to consider the CM boards a good book, it's not too far off. You are reading and/or participating at this moment independently.

I think a lot of it has to do with how you understand your place in societies/groups. You can jump in and be a part of it if you wish, but you can also stray to the fringe and take what the group has to offer for you personally and manage the rest on your own.

Jeff

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