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RE: Swiss man to be caned and jailed for Singapore graf... - 6/25/2010 5:20:56 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

You thought I meant something derogatory when I said that part of the world? 


Well it is derogatory language (us vs them mentality), but in this particular instance, I was actually more unsure of what territories you were delimiting. All of Asia-Pacific? The Middle East too? The Southern Hemisphere?

quote:

Yes there are people who deserve much harsher sentences for the crimes they commit.  If some of that sentence were physical it wouldn't completely be a bad thing.


Sure. And perhaps some of your sexual practices are illegal in other people's eyes. What if they thought BDSM should be punishable by death?

Seriously, I think you are looking at the problem from completely the wrong angle.

- LA



< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 6/25/2010 5:21:40 PM >

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RE: Swiss man to be caned and jailed for Singapore graf... - 6/25/2010 5:25:15 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Well what I'd respond to that is that usually people who do things like graffiti or deal drugs are people who have not been taught good judgement and decision making skills. So the solution is to eliminate them? Because I don't think that tougher laws are going to improve people's decision making skills.



What's the graffiti rate in Singapore, amongst its citizens?  Is it less than the US, where we slap their hands and send them on their way?

I don't see anyone saying anything about eliminating people with bad decision making skills.  Unless that's what you call brutally murdering people - a reflection of bad decision making skills.

I completely agree that people should think twice before breaking laws in countries whose laws may be different than your own, but this discussion seems to be more about what you feel the laws should be.  I personally do not see destroying someone else's property as simple as "bad decision making skills".  It is an intentionally destructive and selfish act, for which there are consequences.  If you behave like a hoodlum in a foreign country, you're going to have that country's laws imposed on you.


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RE: Swiss man to be caned and jailed for Singapore graf... - 6/25/2010 5:42:17 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

I don't see anyone saying anything about eliminating people with bad decision making skills.  Unless that's what you call brutally murdering people - a reflection of bad decision making skills.


Drug peddling is punishable by death in Singapore. Also, judicial caning can lead to infection which can lead to death in certain cases.

quote:

I completely agree that people should think twice before breaking laws in countries whose laws may be different than your own, but this discussion seems to be more about what you feel the laws should be.


To be honest, I didn't focus the OP all that much. My first reaction was shock (even though I knew there was caning punishment in Singapore, I didn't realise they used it for graffiti) and the idea that we need to be aware. Other people's responses made the conversation deviate to whether or not this was a feasible method of punishment. Since it naturally deviated that way, I went with it.

quote:

I personally do not see destroying someone else's property as simple as "bad decision making skills". It is an intentionally destructive and selfish act, for which there are consequences. If you behave like a hoodlum in a foreign country, you're going to have that country's laws imposed on you.


Ok, so in your perspective, if it isn't because of bad decision making skills, why is it that some people act like hoodlums and some people don't?

- LA

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RE: Swiss man to be caned and jailed for Singapore graf... - 6/25/2010 6:03:22 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Ok, so in your perspective, if it isn't because of bad decision making skills, why is it that some people act like hoodlums and some people don't?

- LA


I said it isn't as simple as that.  Bad decision making skills is a piece of it, but it's far more complex than that.  There are a myriad of reasons people behave more or less ethically than others.  There is an entire branch of psychology focused on the reasons for criminal behavior.  My perspective would be incomplete and ignorant, based on studies and discoveries that people more educated than I on the subject have found.  But I do know that judges don't sit on the bench and rule "bad decision making abilities" to people who harm other people, property and animals.

I was not at all surprised by the story of the caning for graffiti, because of all the outrage the American kid's family caused when he was to be caned for vandalizing a car in Singapore.  In my mind, it's pretty much common knowledge that if you fuck around in Singapore, you're going to get caned.

I know this is just Wiki, but it's a bit of an interesting read - Caning in Singapore.

I could not find any documented cases of death from caning, but I only did a preliminary quick search.



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RE: Swiss man to be caned and jailed for Singapore graf... - 6/25/2010 6:26:04 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Singapore is a very clean and well run country, from what I gather.


Clean yes. And the individuals that I've dealt with from that part of the world are all amazing. Well run is a question of opinion. I just think there is are situations in which the punishment outweighs the crime. Simply.

- LA


And this is one of those times where I point out that sometimes if the punishment is over the top maybe the crime will be so much less attractive that it stops happening.

I know this is not a popular view, but it does stand to reason if everyone gets Hung for Spray Painting on walls, maybe less people will do it. Right?

QSM


I think thousands of legislators have had that view to start with, then realised it creates more crime than it solves.  Even as far back in the 1830's here in the UK, when the government got rid of the death penalty on hundreds of crmes,  they'd already discovered that that 'common sense view' is counterproductive.   It costs society too much.

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RE: Swiss man to be caned and jailed for Singapore graf... - 6/25/2010 6:50:14 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Ok, so in your perspective, if it isn't because of bad decision making skills, why is it that some people act like hoodlums and some people don't?

- LA


I said it isn't as simple as that.  Bad decision making skills is a piece of it, but it's far more complex than that.  There are a myriad of reasons people behave more or less ethically than others.  There is an entire branch of psychology focused on the reasons for criminal behavior.  My perspective would be incomplete and ignorant, based on studies and discoveries that people more educated than I on the subject have found.  But I do know that judges don't sit on the bench and rule "bad decision making abilities" to people who harm other people, property and animals.


I am aware of criminology which is psychology, sociology and anthropology. I took many electives in this discipline during my undergrad.

When I say bad decision making abilities, it is because everything we do in life is a choice. Why is it that some people make good choices and some people make bad choices is based on how their brain works which is in part intrinsic (psychology) and part extrinsic (sociology). It is a simple way to represent it, but the bottom line is that people chose certain actions but there is indeed a boat load of complex motivations for those choices and decisions.

- LA

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RE: Swiss man to be caned and jailed for Singapore graf... - 6/25/2010 7:55:57 PM   
DarlingSavage


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

DarlingSavage, check out judicial canings in Singapore and then come back and tell me if it still sounds like fun.

Edited to add the link above. Warning, not for the faint at heart.

- LA


I'll take your word for it.  I trust you. 

A REAL singapore caning leaves people MARKED and SCARED for LIFE.

They don't have to be scared, they could just not do the bad thing anymore.


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RE: Swiss man to be caned and jailed for Singapore graf... - 6/25/2010 8:50:00 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan

Singapore LOVES their caning.... Remember that college kid who got it a decade and a half or so ago?

QSM


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RE: Swiss man to be caned and jailed for Singapore graf... - 6/25/2010 10:25:58 PM   
NuevaVida


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Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

When I say bad decision making abilities, it is because everything we do in life is a choice. Why is it that some people make good choices and some people make bad choices is based on how their brain works which is in part intrinsic (psychology) and part extrinsic (sociology). It is a simple way to represent it, but the bottom line is that people chose certain actions but there is indeed a boat load of complex motivations for those choices and decisions.

- LA


You're basically saying what I said.  It isn't as simple as chalking it up to " bad decision making skills."


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RE: Swiss man to be caned and jailed for Singapore graf... - 6/25/2010 10:30:48 PM   
servantforuse


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Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		Maybe if other counries did the same thing, there would be a lot less graffiti and certainly a lot less of other crimes. I see no problem with it at all..

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RE: Swiss man to be caned and jailed for Singapore graf... - 6/26/2010 4:47:23 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

When I say bad decision making abilities, it is because everything we do in life is a choice. Why is it that some people make good choices and some people make bad choices is based on how their brain works which is in part intrinsic (psychology) and part extrinsic (sociology). It is a simple way to represent it, but the bottom line is that people chose certain actions but there is indeed a boat load of complex motivations for those choices and decisions.

- LA


You're basically saying what I said.  It isn't as simple as chalking it up to " bad decision making skills."



Actually, no, what I said is that the bottom line is bad decision making skills, but determining what makes someone have develop good or bad decision making skills is complex.

We are almost saying the same thing, but I think there are nuances in the way I express what I'm saying that are important to my point.

- LA

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RE: Swiss man to be caned and jailed for Singapore graf... - 6/26/2010 4:49:51 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Maybe if other counries did the same thing, there would be a lot less graffiti and certainly a lot less of other crimes. I see no problem with it at all..


Well many criminologists do see problems with this. And it seems England came to a similar conclusion a long while back.

Canada has no dealt penalty and our drug laws are more lax, yet we have a lower crime rate per capita then then US.

Sorry, but that theory doesn't necessarily hold water.

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 6/26/2010 4:51:39 AM >

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RE: Swiss man to be caned and jailed for Singapore graf... - 6/26/2010 5:00:21 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Maybe if other counries did the same thing, there would be a lot less graffiti and certainly a lot less of other crimes. I see no problem with it at all..


Well many criminologists do see problems with this. And it seems England came to a similar conclusion a long while back.

Canada has no dealt penalty and our drug laws are more lax, yet we have a lower crime rate per capita then then US.

Sorry, but that theory doesn't necessarily hold water.

- LA


I think he was talking about caning, not the death penalty.


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RE: Swiss man to be caned and jailed for Singapore graf... - 6/26/2010 7:46:52 AM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		This is yet another case of a person who elected to do something criminal and did not think a) he would be caught, or b) he was not aware of the consequences for his actions or even c) his foreigner status might help him if he was caught.

Surely he knew what he was doing was wrong, even if he did not know it was criminal, an understanding which might have been gleaned from other places where he night have acted similarly without consequence.

But it is simple, his actions were criminal, he broke the law,and has been caught and must face the consequences of his actions.

Now the issue of physical punishment, caning for example, it has overtones of school age punishment from an older time, but perhaps graffiti is seen as a school age crime, so the punishment in this case fits the crime.

But perhaps an example can be drawn from that little Island off the English coast, the Isle of Man, which had in place the punishment of birching, being flogged with a broom of birch twigs, this I am told was reserved for petty crime of which graffiti came under, but with the knowledge that birching was used, youth pecadillos were very low on the island, something which has now changed since the corporal punishment of this type was banned.

But of corporal punishment, flogging, birching, caning etc, perhaps due to their status as a humiliation punishment they would be more effective at directing wayward people to the right side of the law than custodial punishment which costs tax payers more than the crime does. Perhaps if more countries adopted this method of punishment for petty crime, we might even have less of it because the fear is there.

So, a person may carry physical scars, but what a fitting reminder and deterrant for others.


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