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RE: security and trust - 6/21/2010 12:08:32 PM   
Shadow-tiger


Posts: 1775
Joined: 6/8/2008
From: California
Status: offline 		I think a big part of relationships ending has to do with false assumptions and/or an inability to cope with changes together. Trust and communication are big things that can start out great, then fall by the wayside as time marches on.


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RE: security and trust - 6/21/2010 12:14:45 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists


quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
Put slightly differently, I'm damned sure not going to start out with the assumption of failure. That's a really good way to ensure it fails.



good point.. doesn't make much sense to start with the assumption of failure... so... an assumption of success?... but then what is success? In fact.. what is failure? If one goes with the objective valuation of time... it's easily valued. But yet.. time doesn't reflect those subjective valuations of needs and wants being met.


Profound concept and one I certainly don't know the answer to for myself. All of my relationships have helped me grow and the "better" ones have helped me grow on a rather profound level. So in that sense they were an amazing success. I used to be very self absorbed and domineering to the point of being abusive. I have grown through much of that and grown into someone I like most of the time. I used to pick of the equivalent of "stragglers from the herd" in my younger days and long knew that the best women I had been with were the ones that came after me. BSB being the last of those. I have left all that behind and now move through the world in a vastly different way thanks to all those successful relationship.

I do admit though that I long for "ever after"...I don't want to swap out the old model for a younger one, I long to grow old with one woman, the love of my life, well lived. I wrote a poem about it...

Chairs rocking slowly in unison

One withered hand holding another

No words, the gentle squeeze tells all

A life well lived

I am once again embarking on that journey with someone I am deeply in love with. We are both moving from our homes to be together, taking that risk because without that risk, there is no chance. KoM, I envy the concept of what you have even though the details of what I want differ. The love of a woman who wants you above all others, the chance to wake up next to the one you love, to start your day with her laughter ringing in your ears for all times. Yeah, I want that forever but we shall see in 20 years...

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RE: security and trust - 6/21/2010 12:18:57 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Somebody who I think is a really amazing woman wrote this to me today and I thought it was prophetic...

quote:

Whenever in our lives we cross paths with a person we truly feel blessed for knowing, we should take a moment to be grateful.

Grateful not for knowing the person that they are today, but grateful towards all the people in their past that have suffered while aiding them in their growth and making them the person that we know today.

Thank you for giving me the chance to reflect for a moment on all the people that have suffered for me.


< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 6/21/2010 12:27:40 PM >

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RE: security and trust - 6/21/2010 12:20:57 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
I am once again embarking on that journey with someone I am deeply in love with. We are both moving from our homes to be together, taking that risk because without that risk, there is no chance. KoM, I envy the concept of what you have even though the details of what I want differ. The love of a woman who wants you above all others, the chance to wake up next to the one you love, to start your day with her laughter ringing in your ears for all times. Yeah, I want that forever but we shall see in 20 years...

Words of wisdom from my totally vanilla father.

A long time ago I asked him how had he and my mother stayed married. For them this is what... 40+ years now? They've been through thick and thin... cheating... illness... poverty... riches... struggles of every sort imaginable. It's hardly been some fairy tale. His answer to me when I asked that question was:

"We didn't get divorced"

Lots of people -- ESPECIALLY people here -- would look down on that answer. They would see it as settling for something. They would wonder how trust could've been breached in various ways and they'd put up with it. There'd be all kinds of condemnation. But the fact remains they are still married to each other and they are very, very happy as a couple. I think there's a lot of wisdom in "We didn't get divorced"

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
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RE: security and trust - 6/21/2010 12:22:40 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		I agree.


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RE: security and trust - 6/21/2010 12:23:56 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		The key for me, is to get to a point where there is no string of suffering people still in creation.

I think too many see a string of ended relationships and try to justify them as learning experiences. At some point, all those relationships have one thing in common. One person. If that person is 35-40+ years old and still hasn't figured most of this stuff out, they probably need to take a big step back from relationships, do some maturing, and get their proverbial shit together.

And yes, when ending the relationship ceases to be an option, making it work has a lot more possibilities.


< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 6/21/2010 12:25:08 PM >

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RE: security and trust - 6/21/2010 12:35:11 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
but then what is success? In fact.. what is failure? If one goes with the objective valuation of time... it's easily valued. But yet.. time doesn't reflect those subjective valuations of needs and wants being met.

It's not my place to say what counts as success for anyone other than me. What I can say though is that it's reasonable to look at marriage as a complicated project. Applying some principles of project management then, I'd say it's important to define what your critical success factors are. These are the immutable truths that must be so in order to count as success. Everything else is negotiable. What else I can say is that the likelihood of your project succeeding is inversely proportional to the number of critical success factors. So if you start out your project... or marriage... with 9 billion things that must be true for it to be success... well.. you're doomed. I see this ALL the time on collarme.

For me, my critical success factors are two-fold:

a) I must wake up with Carol in my arms every morning.
b) There must be some way in which we both feel reasonably satisfied with life.

Note that (b) is deliberately vague. That's because I don't choose to hem myself. I'll take happiness... ANY happiness... over a specific kind of happiness.

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: security and trust - 6/21/2010 12:38:16 PM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		I don't think it's a matter of security and trust that sets the bar in these types of relationships in terms of how long they will last.
Security and trust is needed in all types of relationships.
I think the problem here is that not only do you need to connect and have chemistry with someone on vanilla levels, but you have to then factor in all of the kink levels. To find someone that you're compatible with in vanilla and kink makes it much harder.

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RE: security and trust - 6/21/2010 1:15:03 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
So are you saying that it is often missed placed because of one's own lack of confidence?
Yes - but what that confidence points to must be there first in order to include the "security" aspect of the question.

quote:

But does one need to have confidence to get there needs and wants met?

You don't need confidence to get your needs met - you need confidence, secure confidence, to know what your needs ARE. Sometimes, and not as a result of a deliberate act by a relationship partner, getting them met never happens. Sometimes they physically can not happen through any direct effort by your relationship partner. Self confidence is essential to recognize those instances in order to nakedly expose them to your relationship partner.

quote:

Can it be like Erin states... the relationship lasts until the needs and wants are being satisfied and when that is no longer the case it dies.
Wow - I hope not! Speaking from a position of having my needs and wants satisfied pretty much constantly, at minimum I'd represent my relationship as an exception to Erin's position. Granted, I've witnessed first hand the result of 'Erin's Rule'.

That result derives from a 'Did It - Done It' mentality. You hope what was represented as a want and need complimentary to yours would be in the 'Did It - Do it AGAIN!' category. Unfortunately often you never know which one of those is the appropriate description until after the fact. After a 'DI-DI' 'Erin's Rule' is the result. A relationship of 'DI-DIA!' experiences goes on and would conflict with her 'Rule'.

quote:

Is security and trust needed to get the needs and wants satisfied?
Yes - More simple than it seems; requiring a much more complex process to achieve as a result than most people are willing to do.

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RE: security and trust - 6/21/2010 1:48:18 PM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline 		I feel a bit of sadness on behalf of anyone who views relationships in a myopic "success/failure" model. I look back over my life and recall with pleasure the rich memories of the relationships I have had. Using your yardstick I would be an utter failure.



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RE: security and trust - 6/21/2010 2:22:00 PM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline 		I think a long-term relationship is more than security and trust. I believe it is about the partners in that relationship being actively involved in working ON that relationship. Security and trust are there, of course, but it's the active work by the ones in the relationship to keep that relationship going that makes it work.

I was married 26 years because I spent the first 24 years working hard to make the relationship work. In the last 2 years I realized that I was the only one working at it. When I told him that he needed to become actively involved in the relationship or I would leave, he did nothing so I left. If he'd made any move toward working on the relationship I would have stayed.

If Santa had lived, we would have been together for a long time because we were both invested in making the relationship work. We were both secure and trusted in each other AND we were working on the relationship. If I have another relationship, that's what I want in that one as well.

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RE: security and trust - 6/21/2010 2:29:00 PM   
DommeKeliDallas


Posts: 311
Joined: 1/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists


Is it possible in a relationship? FAR more relationships fail that ever suceed or endure for any amount of significant time. I can count on my hand the number or relationship I know in this lifestyle that have last beyond 20 years and it doesn't change to much for 10 years. Seems that 3-5 years is the norm in most cases and these are individuals that been involved in the community for many years besides. Is security and trust really just a myth that we tell ourselves? Are we just fooling ourselves thinking we have security in our relationship or trust? Is it only a matter of time that ground will shake and the trust give will be betrayed?

If you say no..... then why? Is it just leap of faith.. or is there something more concrete than that? If you say yes.. then what is your relationships for? just good time? A place to get what you want while it lasts?

I have had relationships with subbies for many many years...Dommes too.
It is all about kindness, compassion, understanding, trust, tenderness, openness, sharing and caring in the best of times and the worst of times.
Watching each other's back and always being there for the other person.

I still have subbies from long ago, who would walk through hell for me...and have.
I love them and appreciate then and try to show them at least a couple of times a month how much I value them and appreciate them for our long journey through life together.

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RE: security and trust - 6/21/2010 3:20:28 PM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		have to say i get a little tired of the mantra 'theres no difference here than in vanilla'  who cares! - we're talking about Ds and Ms why do we need the vanilla yardstick? - no offence intended to anyone, ive probably used it at some point myself, just there are times it seems kinda irrellavent

to Knight and the OP, same thing i know, but i forgot to quote.  does it have to be a failure in trust and security that breaks things down though.  i think alot of the time its just that people put BDSM and attraction above and beyond compatibility and understanding each other.  the honeymoon period is anything from 2 months to 2/3 years.  but glaring differences can occur quite quickly, get pappered over because its all so much fun, then those cracks start to reappear later on by which time the fun has lapsed a bit and the thing unravels.

personally i would never discount the trust that goes into these relationships for a moment.  it isnt a myth, but security might be.


< Message edited by lally2 -- 6/21/2010 3:29:09 PM >

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RE: security and trust - 6/21/2010 3:27:06 PM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		No matter how kinky we are, we all have real lives. Jobs change, health changes, we have kids and have to deal with them, our parents age and we have to deal with that.

Relationships fall apart when they become boring, and when REAL LIFE takes the glamour away. That's true of vanilla, perv, and any other flavour. Which is more expedient, settling a problem, knuckling down and budgeting for a home purchase or college tuition, dealing with ANY uncomfortable issue, or just walking away?

So much simpler to just leave, and find another model without those pesky issues that the other one had, right?

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RE: security and trust - 6/21/2010 3:36:11 PM   
DarlingSavage


Posts: 2808
Joined: 9/18/2009
Status: offline 		Leesen vewy cawefully, I shall say zes only vonce....

Twust no von!  Ze enemy eez on all zites!  Take preesoners verevah posseeble!  Dead men tell no tales.  Zey don't talk, eezer.


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RE: security and trust - 6/21/2010 3:40:17 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
quote:

Can it be like Erin states... the relationship lasts until the needs and wants are being satisfied and when that is no longer the case it dies.


Wow - I hope not! Speaking from a position of having my needs and wants satisfied pretty much constantly, at minimum I'd represent my relationship as an exception to Erin's position. Granted, I've witnessed first hand the result of 'Erin's Rule'.

That result derives from a 'Did It - Done It' mentality. You hope what was represented as a want and need complimentary to yours would be in the 'Did It - Do it AGAIN!' category. Unfortunately often you never know which one of those is the appropriate description until after the fact. After a 'DI-DI' 'Erin's Rule' is the result. A relationship of 'DI-DIA!' experiences goes on and would conflict with her 'Rule'.



I believe maybe there has been a miscommunication. I believe that relationships last as long as the parties in them are fulfilled by them. I was really referring more to the way in that two people sometimes become incapable of fulfilling the other in a meaningful way because they have simply grown in different directions.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 6/21/2010 3:42:39 PM >

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RE: security and trust - 6/21/2010 3:49:18 PM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

No matter how kinky we are, we all have real lives. Jobs change, health changes, we have kids and have to deal with them, our parents age and we have to deal with that.

Relationships fall apart when they become boring, and when REAL LIFE takes the glamour away. That's true of vanilla, perv, and any other flavour. Which is more expedient, settling a problem, knuckling down and budgeting for a home purchase or college tuition, dealing with ANY uncomfortable issue, or just walking away?

So much simpler to just leave, and find another model without those pesky issues that the other one had, right?


For me, when I am living fully "in the moment" things do not get boring.

For me boredom happens when I am not fully engaged. (Although due to ADD tendencies, being scattered is not necessarily a sign of boredom.)

One of the things I have been learning in this relationship is dealing with the uncomfortable, issues included.

Also I think that often failure in trust/security is preceded by a breakdown in communication.

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RE: security and trust - 6/21/2010 4:44:43 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
And for those who are interested, I found this




An interesting graph... but it cause me to question a point of consideration.

As we mature and have life experiences we become more adaptable to succeed in our endeavors. So.. I wonder if you divide the data down into a few different graphs... IE... Put into one graph those relationships where the average age is under 25 when they are married and then another graph for those 25 to 30 and 30 to 45 etc. I wonder... would the graphs be similiar to one another or would there be some significant differences? I believe if they are similiar it would discount the belief that youth or in general a lack of experienes make it more difficult to endure in a relationship. If they are similiar it also might suggest that there is a underlying social condition that is affecting our views on relationships and their durability in society

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 6/21/2010 4:46:15 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: security and trust - 6/21/2010 4:53:56 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		Yeah, I'd love to have the raw data myself Knight. I also wish I had the data for collars (as opposed to marriages to speak to Lally's criticism). But I don't. I do know, however, that there are differences between first, second, and third marriages... but I don't know how that graph shifts exactly. I could make lots of intuitive guesses on these things, but they'd be nothing other than guesses. Even then, my guesses probably wouldn't be all that relevant to what goes on in the lifestyle. I can talk about things like "trust" and "self knowledge" since those concepts are consistent through the human experience. But when you get down to specifics of BDSM based relationships, I have zero knowledge.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: security and trust - 6/21/2010 5:03:20 PM   
KneelingSub25


Posts: 63
Joined: 12/9/2006
From: New York City
Status: offline 		In my opinion, relationships that fail were more often than not entered into for the wrong reasons to begin with.  This applies to the vanilla relationships as much as it does to relationships in the lifestyle. 

In other words, if your interest in someone (or someone's interest in you) is based on superficial grounds (e.g., their level of attractiveness, what they can "provide" to you), then it shouldn't surprise you when things fall apart.  You shouldn't be in a relationship with someone because the person "turns you on," because you "worship" the person, because the person is "very intelligent," or because the person entertains you. 

In terms of building trust and security within a relationship, there's no secret formula for that either.  It takes time, patience, and an openness on both sides.  Too often people jump into things without asking the right questions first. 

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