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RE: So, this whole "forced" fantasy thing... - 6/6/2010 11:46:03 PM

crazyml

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I'm more or less with the posters who think it's to do with "permission", although I think it's a little more complex than simply wanting "permission", it's about abrogating the responsibility to another.

I would guess (in my capacity as someone totally not qualified to make these assumptions) that in the "forced bi" scenario there are broadly speaking two types. The first type of guy is basically bi. He wants to suck cock. But he's ashamed, guilty, so he plays this mental trick - "If I'm made to do it, then I can rationalise the events so that I can still claim to be straight"

But I don't think that every dude that has a forced-bi fantasy is necesarily in denial about his bi-sexuality, I think there's another group who crave humiliation, and for many men the most humiliating thing they could imagine being made to do is suck another dude's cock... but for the humiliation fantasy to work he has to be able to rationalise it in such a way that he can believe/pretend that "Mistress/Master made him do it..."

(in reply to MissAsylum)

Post #: 21

RE: So, this whole "forced" fantasy thing... - 6/7/2010 12:08:14 AM

reynardfox

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Not been around much have you? Just about half the partners of every woman I've played with as part of a couple has wanted me to make him suck my dick afterwards, it's an act of submission. They can enjoy the fantasy that a stronger male made them do it, it's known as sexual domination. It's nice to make them a part of things. I hate to make people feel left out.

(in reply to MissAsylum)

Post #: 22

RE: So, this whole "forced" fantasy thing... - 6/7/2010 2:11:26 AM

lally2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAsylum

...i don't get it. Its a certain type that i'm not understanding. Its the "forcing a straight man to suck a man's dick(or other homosexual situation)" type that i don't get. i sort of understand that it can be hot to be "forced" to do something outside of your comfort zone, but i personally find it a bit odd when its a perfectly mapped out and specific fantasy. wouldn't there already a curiosity or a want to actually try a gay fantasy? why does there need to be a forceful element involved?

if the decision is taken away from them then its no longer theyre responsibility - they can do it and not actually deal with the uncomfortable fact (for them) that they are a little bi-curious.

same goes for most of this stuff really - particularly for new subs coming through who want to be spanked but cant allow themselves to enjoy it or willingly submit to it without force, so they enter some punishment dynamic and 'earn' theyre spankings - takes away the discomfort of needing something they feel is a bit awkward and embarrassing.

being taken and forced is also hot - the two combined doubly so.

< Message edited by lally2 -- 6/7/2010 2:13:17 AM >

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Post #: 23

RE: So, this whole "forced" fantasy thing... - 6/7/2010 3:16:47 AM

Whiplashsmile4

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The whole being forced business is an interesting topic to savor. Being forced to please anothers burning lustful desires is different compared to being forced to clean bathroom tiles with a toothbrush.

For some it's a complete turn on to be forced to be used for the lustful pleasures of another, regardless of what dark places those desires head in. While they themselves have no lust nor desire and not seek pleasure in the act, they are turned on knowing that their partner (the person doing the forcing is turn on by it).

In my opinion, it's not about somebody having hidden desires or urges, yet need to be forced into it. It's about being forced to pleasure the lustful desires or fantasies of another.

If the person doing the forcing is taking delight and pleasure out of it, cleaning the bathroom tiles with a tooth brush will even work. What I was trying to express was a difference between the motivations behind the force of being forced.

< Message edited by Whiplashsmile4 -- 6/7/2010 3:22:00 AM >

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RE: So, this whole "forced" fantasy thing... - 6/7/2010 4:04:01 AM

PeonForHer

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FR,

Crazy, Lally,

Just a couple of posts before you both talked about 'permission' or 'abrogating responsibility', I said that in my own case it wasn't about that. Why did you both apparently completely ignore that statement? I stopped worrying about the extent to which I'm bisexual decades ago.

I mean, I'm a fan of depth-psychology - actually, quite a Carl Jung fan. But I do understand why it became so detested later on. It lost touch with science and became a dogma - almost a religion. If I agree with what a Freudian analyst says, I'm growing in my psychic awareness. If I don't, I'm exhibiting 'resistance' to his analysis.

Honestly, I'd take a step back and think about it. The human mind is the most the most complex system in the known universe. It's really foolhardy to assume that we can do much more than make guesses about its depths.

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RE: So, this whole "forced" fantasy thing... - 6/7/2010 4:17:00 AM

MissAsylum

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forgive me if i'm wrong- but i dont think they were ignoring you for ignoring's sake. i believe its more to do with my original statement of being "forced" to preform a previously mapped out fantasy that was in place long before the Dom/Domme was even in the picture. And not so much of the- "it would be the ultamite humiliation" aspect, but moreso when it sounds like a meticulously written script from boy on boy porn.

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Post #: 26

RE: So, this whole "forced" fantasy thing... - 6/7/2010 4:50:53 AM

Whiplashsmile4

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAsylum
forgive me if i'm wrong- but i dont think they were ignoring you for ignoring's sake. i believe its more to do with my original statement of being "forced" to preform a previously mapped out fantasy that was in place long before the Dom/Domme was even in the picture. And not so much of the- "it would be the ultamite humiliation" aspect, but moreso when it sounds like a meticulously written script from boy on boy porn.

The real question is, are they attracted to the Act itself or attracted to the thoughts of somebody taking pleasure in forcing them to do it? For instance, when they are fantasizing about it, does it get them worked up thinking about how turned on the person forcing them be, or are they turned on by the act itself. Might explain a lot about why these people don't go off and engage in a gay fantasy, even more so if the element of being forced by the opposite sex is removed.

Let's for example ponder for a moment, that a guy has a fantasy about how turned on a Domme would be in watching him suck dick. Yet, they have zero fantasies interest in sucking dick when removing the Domme (female) from the equation. Also, the thoughts about a Domme that would not be turned on by this activitity also would ruin this fantasy. (instant train wreck for the fantasy itself). Again, this would explain why these people don't seek out a gay experience to endulge in.

Imagine a submissive guy, holding a fantasy of an attractive desirable women in his mind. He's imagining her grip, her voice, her taking her hands to his head and forcing him down on a dick and being told to suck it, knowing that she's getting off creaming her panties over doing this. The more turned on he imagines her doing this, the more turned on he's getting. He knows that she knows he ain't gay or bi, which makes this even more hotter because she's excerising her ultimate control over his body and even his mind. He's getting off on the thoughts of her getting off. The fantasy is not centered around getting the guy's dick he's forced to suck off. If anything the male sub could care less about getting the dude off or not. Has very little to do with being closest gay, but rather the dynamics of being forced to do something that get's the opposite sex in control off. The element of surrendering control for the pleasure of another of the opposite sex. This fantasy is still centered around the opposite sex and not the same sex, if that makes sense to you.

It's kind of like straight sex, where one person starts to get more worked up and turned on by the fact their partner is getting more turned on. Just only slightly different in the case, where the element of forced control comes into play. It's sexual based control.

< Message edited by Whiplashsmile4 -- 6/7/2010 4:55:11 AM >

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RE: So, this whole "forced" fantasy thing... - 6/7/2010 4:54:33 AM

DesFIP

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A lot of people like force play. It's primal, frightening, arousing. Whole swirl of emotions that can get the blood heating up.

Plus many people cannot get over inhibitions by themselves. They need the element of force to do it. You talk about it ahead to explain you want to try it but can't bring yourself to do it unless you have no choice. Some people of course aren't good at identifying the underlying feelings or able to talk about them.

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RE: So, this whole "forced" fantasy thing... - 6/7/2010 5:00:25 AM

Whiplashsmile4

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The one additional thing I can think about which makes this fantasy hot for them to think about, is the "What if I like it factor". The fear of actually finding enjoyment in actually sucking dick or having sexual interaction with the same sex. Call it a bit of a mind fuck factor in thinking about it. If they discover that the some how end up enjoying the opposite sex, the Dom/me will have forced a change or a lasting imprint on them forever. They will be forever changed. A sort of mental transformation or branding that will last for the rest of their lives. They will never be the same again, after they have been forced (actually, regardless if they enjoy it or not).

< Message edited by Whiplashsmile4 -- 6/7/2010 5:01:41 AM >

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RE: So, this whole "forced" fantasy thing... - 6/7/2010 5:26:37 AM

crazyml

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR,

Crazy, Lally,

Just a couple of posts before you both talked about 'permission' or 'abrogating responsibility', I said that in my own case it wasn't about that. Why did you both apparently completely ignore that statement? I stopped worrying about the extent to which I'm bisexual decades ago.

Honestly - I didn't read your post, I'm sorry!

quote:

I mean, I'm a fan of depth-psychology - actually, quite a Carl Jung fan. But I do understand why it became so detested later on. It lost touch with science and became a dogma - almost a religion. If I agree with what a Freudian analyst says, I'm growing in my psychic awareness. If I don't, I'm exhibiting 'resistance' to his analysis.

Honestly, I'd take a step back and think about it. The human mind is the most the most complex system in the known universe. It's really foolhardy to assume that we can do much more than make guesses about its depths.

Oh goodness, yes - You're absolutely right!

Hence my caveat -

quote:

I would guess (in my capacity as someone totally not qualified to make these assumptions

I was just responding to the OP.

I should have been (even) more circumspect... and should have made it clear that - as you so rightly point out - there could be millions of other motivations.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 30

RE: So, this whole "forced" fantasy thing... - 6/7/2010 5:53:49 AM

laurell3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR,

Crazy, Lally,

Just a couple of posts before you both talked about 'permission' or 'abrogating responsibility', I said that in my own case it wasn't about that. Why did you both apparently completely ignore that statement? I stopped worrying about the extent to which I'm bisexual decades ago.

I mean, I'm a fan of depth-psychology - actually, quite a Carl Jung fan. But I do understand why it became so detested later on. It lost touch with science and became a dogma - almost a religion. If I agree with what a Freudian analyst says, I'm growing in my psychic awareness. If I don't, I'm exhibiting 'resistance' to his analysis.

Honestly, I'd take a step back and think about it. The human mind is the most the most complex system in the known universe. It's really foolhardy to assume that we can do much more than make guesses about its depths.

Peon, why are you jumping on them about it? You're not the OP. They don't have to revise their opinion to fit every person that answers. Haha, that would be RIDICULOUS of course in many of these threads.

I also agree it's not necessarily about permission at all (although it could be for some people of course). I've done some things I thought were absolutely nasty that I certainly would have no solo desire to do. As I said above, it's not about me, it's about him. But that's just MY thing, it's quite possible they both encountered situations where it was a permission type of thing.

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Post #: 31

RE: So, this whole "forced" fantasy thing... - 6/7/2010 6:26:06 AM

ranja

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Some people just love the idea of being forced...
i myself have some very hot fantasies in which i am forced to do allsorts of stuff.

i suppose some people like to play out certain fantasies for real or as real as they can make it... what is so hard to understand about this?

(in reply to MissAsylum)

Post #: 32

RE: So, this whole "forced" fantasy thing... - 6/7/2010 8:07:49 AM

hardbodysub

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Here we go again. This discussion seems to pop up every couple of weeks. I suggest that you do a search of the message boards if you're really interested in it. You'll find so many threads that you won't know where to start.

Unfortunately, no matter how many times it's discussed, you will always find people who insist that "forced" anything is merely a disguise, that the sub is getting what he (assuming male sub here, since that is what the OP was about) wants while trying to avoid the guilt of wanting it. Well sure, for some that is probably true. But it's only one portion of the forced activity enthusiasts.

Some actually crave the helplessness, the feeling of being controlled, and it's more about being forced than it is about the activity being forced upon them. Hey, if the activity is something that is desirable in some way, that can make it better. Or not. Sometimes it's even hotter when they're forced to do something that they actually don't like. It makes the force seem more authentic.

You have to understand that there's more than one side to the issue of "forced" activities. If a sub has communicated an interest in it, it might be a good idea to ask him what makes it desirable, try to find out where he's coming from (figuratively speaking, of course).

P.S. ranja posted while I was writing this. Well said, concise and to the point. I agree. It's not hard to understand, if you're not letting your mind get all hung up on something else.

< Message edited by hardbodysub -- 6/7/2010 8:10:28 AM >

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Post #: 33

RE: So, this whole "forced" fantasy thing... - 6/7/2010 9:24:30 AM

PeonForHer

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Ranja, Hardbody . . . yep, being forced is a kink all of its own. That's a subject that's barely discussed on these boards.

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RE: So, this whole "forced" fantasy thing... - 6/7/2010 9:34:21 AM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
Peon, why are you jumping on them about it? You're not the OP. They don't have to revise their opinion to fit every person that answers. Haha, that would be RIDICULOUS of course in many of these threads.

True, fair enough. I guess I have a bee in my bonnet about certain theories that get wheeled out so often that people think they're true just because they've been said so often. They so firmly believe them that the evidence doesn't matter. Often, though, there's no evidence that could be presented one way or the other - because whatever theory we're talking about is untestable.

*Sigh*. Anyone remember that theory, big in the late 1980s, that people don't dream in colour? God, that used to grind on me. If you argued with it, you'd just get smug looks. Grrr. Put on a white coat, and anything you say becomes true.

Still: sorry to have projected that grouch on to Crazy, Lally and others.

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RE: So, this whole "forced" fantasy thing... - 6/7/2010 11:54:32 AM

IronBear

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Peon, I understand what you say and in some part can agree with it. Perhaps over coffee we could enjoy a vigorous debate about Jung (Except I am on 'tother side of the world). Many of the kink friendly psychologists I know are like me Jungian WEG. However back to the OP, I have a lady friend who enjoys pain play and rape play (including gang bangs) provided I restrain her with either rope or chain bondage and use either a mask or blindfold (she likes to hear what is going on though). We have discussed this at some length before I played with her and found she enjoyed needle play (huge bonus for me), and if being used sexually her only other request is that either Neets or I are either present watching or part of the people using her in some way. because of the trust in us, she is able to surrender and allow herself to be used knowing I would only choose others to joining us who I trust and who will respect my directions regarding safety and safe sex. In her mind she has no options as to what happens to her which she describes as delicious but not something she can bring herself to "willingly" be party to. part of this also which is a huge sexual turn on for the three of us, is she is able to struggle and fight for all she is worth and no harm can come to her physically. This appears to heighten her orgasms.

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Post #: 36

RE: So, this whole "forced" fantasy thing... - 6/7/2010 4:06:45 PM

laurell3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
Peon, why are you jumping on them about it? You're not the OP. They don't have to revise their opinion to fit every person that answers. Haha, that would be RIDICULOUS of course in many of these threads.

True, fair enough. I guess I have a bee in my bonnet about certain theories that get wheeled out so often that people think they're true just because they've been said so often. They so firmly believe them that the evidence doesn't matter. Often, though, there's no evidence that could be presented one way or the other - because whatever theory we're talking about is untestable.

*Sigh*. Anyone remember that theory, big in the late 1980s, that people don't dream in colour? God, that used to grind on me. If you argued with it, you'd just get smug looks. Grrr. Put on a white coat, and anything you say becomes true.

Still: sorry to have projected that grouch on to Crazy, Lally and others.

Thanks. I definitely get you are sensitive about the issue, and I don't mean that in any negative sense at all.

I actually have a forced bi fascination and did it with a sub that was strictly hetero, in fact he cried going into it, he was very much NOT into the act and was REALLY concerned that it doesn't make him bi or homosexual. (yes I'm mean and horrible and all that..and also a sadist). It really was all about him doing it for me and not about the guy and was very much a bonding experience for us and incredibly hot for both of us once he got past the aversion. However, my first encounter with women was "forced bi" and it really was more about permission and support, so I think it truly does go both ways and maybe other ways as well.

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RE: So, this whole "forced" fantasy thing... - 6/7/2010 5:14:30 PM

youngandjaded1

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The idea of "Forced" play has always made me feel uncomfortable. I know people who have been sexually assaulted so this is why I feel this way. And I say this as someone who is bisexual - if I am going to play with another guy, its going to be a guy I want to play around with - and the same should go for him too. If I ever took part of topping a guy who didn't want to topped but went with it because he felt he had no choice, I'd never forgive myself.

< Message edited by youngandjaded1 -- 6/7/2010 5:17:22 PM >

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Post #: 38

RE: So, this whole "forced" fantasy thing... - 6/7/2010 6:10:49 PM

PeonForHer

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Peon, I understand what you say and in some part can agree with it. Perhaps over coffee we could enjoy a vigorous debate about Jung (Except I am on 'tother side of the world). Many of the kink friendly psychologists I know are like me Jungian WEG.

It's interesting that you've come across more than a few Jungian psychologists who are also kink-friendly. Yes, they do pride themselves on being able to embrace everything that goes on in someone's soul.

It'd be great to have a coffee with you. As so often, I curse the existence of that damned Atlantic!

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Post #: 39

RE: So, this whole "forced" fantasy thing... - 6/7/2010 6:25:05 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

Thanks. I definitely get you are sensitive about the issue, and I don't mean that in any negative sense at all.

Laurell,

Sensitive about bisexuality or the idea of 'forced'- no. About the subject of psychology - its uses and abuses - yep, you betcha!

quote:

I actually have a forced bi fascination and did it with a sub that was strictly hetero, in fact he cried going into it, he was very much NOT into the act and was REALLY concerned that it doesn't make him bi or homosexual. (yes I'm mean and horrible and all that..and also a sadist). It really was all about him doing it for me and not about the guy and was very much a bonding experience for us and incredibly hot for both of us once he got past the aversion.

I had a funny idea that you had a forced-bi fascination. No idea where I got that from

.

So . . . wow. You did the real thing. That must have been one major event.

Actually, I can't say much more than 'Wow!' to that.

quote:

However, my first encounter with women was "forced bi" and it really was more about permission and support, so I think it truly does go both ways and maybe other ways as well.

That's interesting. You're actually the first person who I've seen actually announce that it was about permission for you.

I honestly don't know what that feels like. I'd call myself 95% straight. That is, I can get bi-fantasies, but they're rare. What it boils down to is that I wouldn't want to do bi-anything-at-all in real life without it being forced on me ('forced' in the BDSM sense, natch) by a dominant. She would make the difference because it makes it much more about her - and much more about sub and masochistic feelings in me.

What can I say?

It feels straightforward to me.

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Post #: 40

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