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elizabeth bathory - 4/14/2010 4:24:18 PM

lally2

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i watched a small part of a horrible documentary last night on a woman called elizabeth bathory born in the 1500. her sadism was extreme but the thing that made me think a little was how the culture was back in her day. i believe she lived somewhere in or near russia and was immensely powerful and wealthy. in those days you could go and pick youreself up any number of peasant girls and do atrocious things to them without anyone stopping you. they believe her victims ran into the hundreds over a twenty five year period and it was only because she was rich and wealthy that she managed to get away with it for as long as she did. when caught she was kept under house arrest though in truth she should have been executed

it made our SSC seem enormously tame and civilised compared to what this woman did and how she went about it.

the owner of many towns and villages she just went off and picked someone sexually attractive to her and dragged the poor girl off.

when you read in history about the degree of sadism exercised and the level of impunity these people seemed to enjoy due to position and wealth it makes me realise just how far back sadomasochism goes. the furthest back that people generally talk about is the leather community and though we all know about deSade, i dont ever remember hearing about someone so completely off the wall with her sadism that she and her husband, while he was still alive, enjoyed so passionately and grotesquely and completely without any consent from their victims.

and yet.... there is the sick puppy in me that finds it all a bit fascinating - im very very glad we have SSC and im very very glad that 'our' sadists are under some level of control lol -

we talk about nature and nurture, but i just have to wonder after watching that, actually how much of it comes from some level of genetic memory that goes back centuries.

anyway, no question or point to this really, just musing.

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RE: elizabeth bathory - 4/14/2010 5:01:13 PM

elleX

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Hello Lally,
i have never heard about Elisabeth Bathory, but it seem that she was the kind of sadist that DMS ( bible of psychiatry ) describe , nothing to do with the sadistic people who are practicing their lifestyle openly in our community

Research are now showing that criminals deviant peoples would carry a genetic print of their deviancy,
we are making our first step in the link between genetic and the human behavior ,,
on thing we now know is that it is not only related to the enviroment ,

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RE: elizabeth bathory - 4/14/2010 5:05:26 PM

OrpheusAgonistes

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Not too surprisingly, I've always had a crush on Countess Bathory.

This is a really big and fascinating subject and I'm not quite sure where to begin. I'm pretty sure the inclination toward sadomasochism is coeval with human consciousness. References start popping up in western literature at least half a century before de Sade (John Cleland wrote a kind of awkward and not particularly hot flagellation scene into Fanny Hill), and of course references in Greek and Roman culture abound. I wrote a paper in high school on how Circe was a true sadist while Calypso was more of a Domme with sadistic tendencies (it got an A and nearly got me expelled).

If Bathory interests you, I'd recommend you also look into Gilles de Rais (though charges against him were pretty clearly sensationalized for political reasons).

Personally, I'm also pretty fascinated by Fin de Siecle age S&M, as well as that gorgeous period from the 1920s-30s (my first overt exposure to sexual weirdness was watching a friend's older sister's contraband copy of Histoire de l'oeil at much too tender an age).

Really interesting subject and good post.

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RE: elizabeth bathory - 4/14/2010 5:10:15 PM

kittinSol

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I remember hearing about her a while ago and shuddering at how horrific the case was... she was a Hungarian countess.

I actually found her portrait online.

Society has come a long way since then. She wouldn't be allowed to get away with her bloodlust today.

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RE: elizabeth bathory - 4/14/2010 5:15:38 PM

SylvereApLeanan

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According to legend, Erzebet Bathory bathed in the blood of virgins because she thought it would keep her young and beautiful. If you think she was bad, check out the history on Vlad Tsepes, aka Vlad the Impaler. He was a crusader for the Catholic church and was reputed to eat his supper amid a virtual forest of stakes upon which the bodies of his vanquished enemies had been impaled. There's also the Malleus Maleficarum, which is a detailed handbook used by torturers during the Inquisition. The Middle Ages were rife with sadists, most of them in the employ of the Christian Church.

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RE: elizabeth bathory - 4/14/2010 5:23:52 PM

kittinSol

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Although now that I've spent five minutes researching her, it appears that she may well have been framed. Conspiracies abounded in those days, and she was a very educated and potentially dangerous political figure who opposed the Habsburgs, since she was a Protestant from Transylvania... It's very possible that her condemnation was the result of a conspiracy.

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RE: elizabeth bathory - 4/14/2010 5:25:51 PM

GraciousLady

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I think this is a perfect example of the difference between perversion and fetish. To me perversion is sickness and fetish is agreeable fun for everyone!

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RE: elizabeth bathory - 4/14/2010 5:42:21 PM

AquaticSub

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~Fast Reply~

Sure she'd be able to get away with it. Plenty of bloodbaths and crimes against humanity still happen in the modern age. She'd just have to be in the right country and be powerfully enough connected.

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RE: elizabeth bathory - 4/14/2010 5:43:16 PM

kanina

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I did knew that story, as count dracula, as others... the inquisition was the worst... but in those days culture was diferent, but even so, today people also do horrible things to the human being with much more conscious than in those days...

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RE: elizabeth bathory - 4/14/2010 6:13:05 PM

DesFIP

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Look at Caligula and some of the other Roman emperors. However, water was brought in lead pipes. It's thought that lead poisoning could be the cause of their actions.

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RE: elizabeth bathory - 4/14/2010 8:17:48 PM

Smutmonger

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Thier wine was also fermented in lead lined casks to make it taste sweeter.

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RE: elizabeth bathory - 4/15/2010 12:28:30 AM

dreamerdreaming

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Fast Reply, after reading only the OP:

Although I've not heard of EB, I'm sure Vlad the Impaler was of the same cloth. And Stalin, and Hitler. I could go on, but I won't. Some people truly get off on others' nonconsensual suffering. Some people are just evil, ya know?

Mean people suck.

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RE: elizabeth bathory - 4/15/2010 12:53:33 AM

lally2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamerdreaming

Fast Reply, after reading only the OP:

Although I've not heard of EB, I'm sure Vlad the Impaler was of the same cloth. And Stalin, and Hitler. I could go on, but I won't. Some people truly get off on others' nonconsensual suffering. Some people are just evil, ya know?

Mean people suck.

this is true - but what makes someone like EB stick out like a sore bum

is that she did the deeds herself. interestingly enough Elizabeth I was considered to be the worst for torture in that period, but she didnt do the deed herself.

ah yes, good old Vlad - he and EB came from more or less the same part of the world - a big back drop of hatred for the turks, cruelty and impunity went hand in hand - a bad place to be a peasant girl i feel.

in this day and age she would have been called a serial killer i guess and popped in a loony bin.

the impression i got from the docu was that as time went by and she continued to get away with it her methods of torture got worse. death was usually the outcome. what was also fascinating was that she was a model mother, a brilliant busineswoman and ran a huge estate on her own while her hubby was away killing turks - not youre typical serial killer really who tend to be generally dysfunctional in all areas of life (i think)

her sadism was for sexual gratification they believe and not a blood lust per se or megalomania gone crazy bad.

as for the propoganda slant, they found documented evidence that supported the stories of her cruelty

< Message edited by lally2 -- 4/15/2010 1:03:47 AM >

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So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

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RE: elizabeth bathory - 4/15/2010 1:08:54 AM

lally2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrpheusAgonistes

Not too surprisingly, I've always had a crush on Countess Bathory.

This is a really big and fascinating subject and I'm not quite sure where to begin. I'm pretty sure the inclination toward sadomasochism is coeval with human consciousness. References start popping up in western literature at least half a century before de Sade (John Cleland wrote a kind of awkward and not particularly hot flagellation scene into Fanny Hill), and of course references in Greek and Roman culture abound. I wrote a paper in high school on how Circe was a true sadist while Calypso was more of a Domme with sadistic tendencies (it got an A and nearly got me expelled).

.

i think thats the bit im fascinated by - if the environment is conducive, opportunity exists and you have the means and the sadomasochistic leaning history would suggest that people like EB were in their element.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

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Post #: 14

RE: elizabeth bathory - 4/15/2010 1:30:54 AM

lally2

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just to also add - her prefferred methods were beating, cutting, fire and biting - activities we would recognise here - i cant say if snuff was the goal or whether it was simply inevitable or that the killing became part of it as she developed.

but i do think her methods somewhat separate her from the stalins,hitlers and vlads of our history books and also serial killers whose entire premis is to kill and usually in a highly patterned manner.

she was in it for fun, it was her position, her wealth and her autonomy that gave her the freedom to do it for 25 years.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to lally2)

Post #: 15

RE: elizabeth bathory - 4/15/2010 3:15:36 AM

ResidentSadist

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What in the wold does that have to do with BDSM?
This is an OFF TOPIC thread, it is NOT about BDSM, it is about a famous murderer.
What's next, how Vlad was good Dom???
E. B. was a psychopathic killer using vitim's blood for medicinal or ritualistic purposes.
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Is this the BDSM part, your "musing" whether or not consensual BDSMers into sadomasochism have some genetic memory of psychopathic killers? If so, I'm kind of insulted by your presumption that I or any other consensual sadist has a genetically murderous heritage.
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E. B. was Hungarian which is now Slovakia. Because she had more than one dwelling and moved between them, it prolonged her detection. Also, police work wasn't quite as up to date then as it is now so her string of victims was notoriously large. They didn't ignore her and let her carry on just because of her wealth. They stopped her, arrested her, had a trial and jailed her in confinement until her death.

One consistent fact was that she hired people to acquire girls for their blood. Her main drive as a psychopathic killer was using blood for medicinal/ritualistic bathing purposes. Her sadistic mutilations, burnings and etc were voiced as hearsay from her trial.
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You said not many famous killers predate E. B. If you want to become a fan of famous serial killers with outstanding sadistic performances, you should take a look at Vlad the Impaler! He has a head start on her by over 100 years. It was their combined behaviors, his sadism and her blood-lust that created the template for Dracula.

One of Vlad's famous moves was when he threw a banquet for the local surfs/peasants. They were so pleased by the feast and his generosity, they begged for more, they begged for money, they begged for relief from their misery. Vlad fulfilled their request. He left the building, locking them in behind him. Then he burnt them all alive . . . putting them “out of their misery”.
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I do not understand why people associate sadistic serial killers with the BDSM lifestyle or vice versa. The recent flood of threads that confuse serial killers with sadomasochism is ridiculous and this thread only adds to the fodder and confusion imo. Serial killers and sadistic personality disorder do not require masochists and they or their victims have NOTHING to do with sadomasochism or sadistic paraphilias! E.B. has NOTHING to do with "sadomasochism" and the OP is misusing that word by associating it to E. B. That is like associating rape with orgasms because they both involve sex in one way or another. The difference is consent (and intent).

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RE: elizabeth bathory - 4/15/2010 9:18:00 AM

Whiplashsmile4

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Reminds me, I need to descend upon the local village and pillage it for local peasent girls, my basement is getting a little empty. The Neighborhood has been too quiet, people are starting to talk about why they no longer hear screams late at night.

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RE: elizabeth bathory - 4/15/2010 9:26:32 AM

kittinSol

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Of course, it is far juicier to believe the rumours rather than to try and establish some kind of factual knowledge - four hundred years later.

http://www.squidoo.com/countesselizabethbathory

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RE: elizabeth bathory - 4/15/2010 9:28:23 AM

DomImus

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Judging by how inspired I get watching Insex videos I think I'll pass on googling Ms. Bathory.

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RE: elizabeth bathory - 4/15/2010 9:29:23 AM

Jeffff

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It just proves that all women are inherently evil!

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