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RE: spanking - punishment v play. - 4/13/2010 7:07:36 PM

playfulotter

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Punishment to me is when one has done something against the rules or profoundly wrong and needing punishment and punishment is never fun...now discipline is something totally different! but i guess it is a semantics thing...ha ha

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RE: spanking - punishment v play. - 4/13/2010 9:44:59 PM

ExSteelAgain

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Punishment is: "Get up and lean over the bed." 3 hard pops with the cane.

Pleasure is a slow start and build-up with my hand or a flogger. Don't spank the same place all the time. Get a pattern that varies where the impact occurs. The slow start gradually intensifies with harder and faster slaps. Reading the spacing means paying attention to her. It doesn't always happen with every submissive. As with everything, it depends.

If she is tired, upset or nervous, spacing may not happen. That's where the connection between the Dom and sub is important. There's a time to stop and a time to go harder. It's all an exciting thing and reading the submissive is part of the excitement. If it's not working between you, talk about it. There is no magic except the spacing.

< Message edited by ExSteelAgain -- 4/13/2010 9:46:11 PM >

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RE: spanking - punishment v play. - 4/13/2010 10:00:54 PM

blackdaddy4me

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i love ur answer.. " ddnt get into alternative lifestyle to explore new frontiers in conformity" how true... and hilarious!!Punishment feels unsettling vs play which may be just as unsettling but for different reasons - n without feeling bad about failing to please!!

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RE: spanking - punishment v play. - 4/13/2010 11:25:52 PM

WyldHrt

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quote:

Considered for a sadistic moment to reach over into the night stand and bring out 'Wyld's - 'Master I think I shit myself paddle!' and use it as a wake up call

*Makes a note to apologize to beth, yet again, for making that paddle.... and worse, giving it to Merc, sigh*

Seriously though, very nice story and thank you for sharing it. I can so see this happening with you two. What you said about spanking, or any touch, generating emotion was bang on. For me, it is the intent that makes the difference.

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RE: spanking - punishment v play. - 4/14/2010 4:19:26 AM

lally2

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ive asked the sub in question to follow this thread and im sure she is, she said that she would ask her bloke to read it too. so thank you guys, youve been great and this has been fun to read too.

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RE: spanking - punishment v play. - 4/14/2010 4:42:08 AM

DesFIP

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The more important question you asked lally, is the one I haven't any answer to.
How do you convince someone that doing this just for fun is okay when they feel it's acceptable only used as punishment?

Beyond talking to them and hoping they have an open mind? No clue.

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RE: spanking - punishment v play. - 4/14/2010 5:58:02 AM

lally2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

The more important question you asked lally, is the one I haven't any answer to.
How do you convince someone that doing this just for fun is okay when they feel it's acceptable only used as punishment?

Beyond talking to them and hoping they have an open mind? No clue.

i dont know either - but i seem to be on some personal mission over this at the moment

and i really want to explore that question too.

you can talk about the right headspace till youre blue in the face, but you need to be submissive to that need and/or submissive to the man in order to reach that headspace, without feeling weird about it.

as SirRussell says in his wonderful post the act of a sub lying freely across his knee is the best show of submission to him. it is a willingness to be there that should be powerful to the D type - it shouldnt be necessary to force or drag or make the experience awful and for that awful experience to be happening twice a month!!! or even more - in the end that isnt submission on any level and it isnt dominance - its kink but without the pleasure, bonding or release.

i asked a Dom friend of mine what his angle was on it all and he said that it isnt about 'not hitting hard enough' its about the whole response/reaction/reading the sub and getting her 'there'. so the guy involved has to really love what he's doing, take a pride in getting it right and bringing the sub to climax and catharsis.

ive been told its deeply erotic for a sub to offer herself, to identify her need and ask to be taken there by whatever means possible. to have a woman put herself into youre hands in that way. but the D has to be wired for that, he has to get a big kick from that for it to work on him too and he has to be prepared to put the thought and effort in as well.

so in the end i suppose its down to lots of things,
are they sub and Dom,
is theyre need strong enough and comparable,
can he be bothered,
does it feel 'too kinky',
are they capable of embracing what they want and just going for it,
can they ditch the social conditioning that says spanking is for punishment only
can they just see it as a different way of loving and giving.

i suppose another question is - what is it that we feel, think and embrace that makes what we do fun, fulfilling and healthy

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RE: spanking - punishment v play. - 4/14/2010 7:45:34 AM

Andalusite

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Hmm, I'm still confused about whether it is the submissive or the dominant who feels that spanking should only be for punishment. If it's the sub/bottom/whatever, then the Dom/Top/whatever can handle it as a role-play scene, or "punish" her for every touchdown/whatever scored by the opposing team on TV, or otherwise set up a "funishment" scenario. If it's the D-type who feels that it must be punishment, will he get his needs fed by a pleasure-type spanking, or does he need her to experience pain or humiliation or guilt or whatever? To start out with, while he is still figuring out how she reacts, I would strongly suggest not pushing her to the point of catharsis, unless she goes there from fairly light play. Start out just patting and caressing, and when she moves *into* it that is usually a signal that she wants more/harder and he can up the intensity. If she moans in a way that he isn't sure is good or bad, say something like, "you like that?" or "want more?" or possibly "Is that too much?" and get direct feedback if she's still able to speak. Usually breathing harder is good, but sometimes people who are on the verge of their pain tolerance breathe heavily as well. So, for someone who is new to topping, or even new to a specific person, it can take most of a scene, or even a couple of scenes, to figure out the way that the s-type reacts at different levels. Some people use "tell me your color" or "give me a number" for intensity. Personally, I can do the green/yellow/red thing ok most of the time, but picking numbers doesn't go well - I have trouble deciding whether it's really a 6, or more of a 5 or a 7 and get distracted. Thud vs. sting can be affected by the follow-through, things like spreading the fingers vs. keeping them together, cupping the hand vs. flat, etc. If she really likes thud, he can punch lightly (with the front of his fist, or the bottom), which will be pretty much all thud and no sting. OTK is a good position, but it certainly isn't the only one that can be fun - lying down on her tummy, on her knees backed up against him doggy-style, or on her back with him pressing her knees toward her belly with one hand are a few of the other options. If they explore and communicate, I'm sure they'll figure out very quickly what they both enjoy and dislike. Of course, most of my suggestions have to do with topping and figuring out where her "good pain" vs. "bad pain" point is. For me personally, what I need for submission usually happens independently of spanking technique - the chemistry is either there or it isn't. My Master can make that headspace even more intense since I already respond to him that way, but there have been other people who I could only bottom to or top, no D/s whatsoever.

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RE: spanking - punishment v play. - 4/14/2010 8:55:29 AM

bondmaid123

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I would like to chime in here.... because there is this sort of.... BDSM lifestyle cultural expectation that you're *required* to love spanking (specifically spanking) to be "a real member of the community". And as with any absolute statement, that way lies trouble. I mean, just reading lally's list of questions, I see a whole lot of bias in that direction. (not picking on you, I'm just using it as a PERFECT example)

I HATE HATE HATE spanking. I accept that sometimes a spanking may be considered a necessary or... perhaps more accurately ~appropriate~ tool. But I can see absolutely zero benefit for ~me~ in spending potentially *years* working on the psychological conditioning that would be necessary to brainwash or "retrain" me into accepting spanking as a good and positive experience. At the very least, it's a basic compatibility thing, and if I'm in the early stages of a relationship where we're discussing these things, and it's on my partner's "MUST HAVE" list, that's a very good sign that I'm just not going to be long term ok in this relationship, because I ~will~ develop a deep resentment over it.

I realize the post was about "punishment vs funishment" but there are a lot of other ways to reach that level of catharsis that don't require spanking.... even if it is the "easy default" :P

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RE: spanking - punishment v play. - 4/14/2010 1:25:53 PM

lally2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bondmaid123

I would like to chime in here.... because there is this sort of.... BDSM lifestyle cultural expectation that you're *required* to love spanking (specifically spanking) to be "a real member of the community". And as with any absolute statement, that way lies trouble. I mean, just reading lally's list of questions, I see a whole lot of bias in that direction. (not picking on you, I'm just using it as a PERFECT example)

I HATE HATE HATE spanking. I accept that sometimes a spanking may be considered a necessary or... perhaps more accurately ~appropriate~ tool. But I can see absolutely zero benefit for ~me~ in spending potentially *years* working on the psychological conditioning that would be necessary to brainwash or "retrain" me into accepting spanking as a good and positive experience. At the very least, it's a basic compatibility thing, and if I'm in the early stages of a relationship where we're discussing these things, and it's on my partner's "MUST HAVE" list, that's a very good sign that I'm just not going to be long term ok in this relationship, because I ~will~ develop a deep resentment over it.

I realize the post was about "punishment vs funishment" but there are a lot of other ways to reach that level of catharsis that don't require spanking.... even if it is the "easy default" :P

hi,

the point of this thread was really to explore how to move pain play away from punishment and into pleasure so that she can be taken carefully and skillfully through the pain to a feeling of being sorted and settled.

but it is a good point and it might be really useful if you could share how you reach catharsis and move this discussion to other methods.

the thing is she asked me on the other side for some advice and i thought it would be better for her to get feed back from different perspectives, youres would be a perfect example of that.

there is nothing to say that spanking is the only route open to her or anyone at all - its just that that is the 'mode' they have been using so far.

thanks

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RE: spanking - punishment v play. - 4/14/2010 1:46:49 PM

backroads

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i don't think i've ever heard it put that way but i agree. Thud is good, stingy is bad. i am gonna remember that!
thank you!

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RE: spanking - punishment v play. - 4/14/2010 2:06:23 PM

lally2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: backroads

i don't think i've ever heard it put that way but i agree. Thud is good, stingy is bad. i am gonna remember that!
thank you!

actually i need stingy -

- im obviously in a minority here, but stingy makes me wriggle and squirm - i like to wriggle and squirm (and struggle) but thuddy is good too

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RE: spanking - punishment v play. - 4/14/2010 8:18:18 PM

bondmaid123

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I think if she's not into pain.... then she's not into pain. She shouldn't be forced to try to assimilate pain into her "toolbox".

I actually don't really like "scening" very much, personally. Even if it's not in public, I feel like it's artificial, and like I'm playing a part in a play, and to ~me~ that actually creates anxiety. (I know, right? how DARE I call myself "a member of the lifestyle community...."... heh)

When I'm feeling especially stressed out or wound up tight, I prefer to be left alone for a brief while (like... a couple of hours) to process my thoughts and NOT have to try to force them to the surface (because the more stressed out I am, the less able I feel to coherently present the shit that's bugging me... and there's nothing I hate more than being told I'm "irrational" or "talking nonsense"....) or to hyperfocus on ~SOMETHING ELSE~ because for me that allows the thoughts to sort of organically settle into a cohesive "conversational outline" that I can then share with my partner. Most of the time, I just need to be allowed to (once I've done that prep work) communicate the issues with my partner. I don't even really want an Insta-Solution. I just want to be HEARD... I'd almost rather have like two "discussions". One where I air the issues, and then another one, like... a little while ater (that evening, or the next day, or whatever), where we talk about stuff. But *I* have communication issues... I really do... so I can't say this is a viable method for anybody else.

The thing is, and I'm sure everybody knows this once they think about it... there's no magic wand that works for everybody. Your friend is going to have to do some soul searching and experimentation. It sounds like they've tried spanking, that isn't doing it. Rather than beating a dead horse, they should try OTHER stuff. Not the same thing in different ways, eh? I know for me, a lot of times this ends up in me feeling like a failure, or resentful, or just... well.... beat up. And that ~certainly~ doesn't provide catharsis. :P And I think spanking is sort of the generic "Go-To Insta-Solution" that people try... and I don't know why, but DAMN, I wish it wasn't.

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RE: spanking - punishment v play. - 4/14/2010 11:55:49 PM

dreamerdreaming

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Fast reply:

OP, as you know, I don't do any real punishment. So I can't help ya there. But with funishment: it is yummy to have the s-type beg for it (whether of their own volition or as ordered) and maybe kneel with eyes/head down while they hold up the implement in outstretched hands for the dom to receive. If they are allowed or told to fetch a certain implement, (whether it is one of the dom's choosing, or whichever one the s-type wants) this can be an exquisitely delicious part of the whole experience also.

*cream*

I... um... hafta go now...

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RE: spanking - punishment v play. - 4/15/2010 12:02:45 AM

dreamerdreaming

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bondmaid123

I HATE HATE HATE spanking. I accept that sometimes a spanking may be considered a necessary or... perhaps more accurately ~appropriate~ tool. But I can see absolutely zero benefit for ~me~ in spending potentially *years* working on the psychological conditioning that would be necessary to brainwash or "retrain" me into accepting spanking as a good and positive experience. At the very least, it's a basic compatibility thing, and if I'm in the early stages of a relationship where we're discussing these things, and it's on my partner's "MUST HAVE" list, that's a very good sign that I'm just not going to be long term ok in this relationship, because I ~will~ develop a deep resentment over it.

I realize the post was about "punishment vs funishment" but there are a lot of other ways to reach that level of catharsis that don't require spanking.... even if it is the "easy default" :P

If spanking doesn't work for you, that's fine! If you're very honest and upfront about it, you should be able to find a dom who's not interested in it either. I'm sure there are plenty of them.

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RE: spanking - punishment v play. - 4/15/2010 1:55:31 AM

jbcurious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

hi,

the point of this thread was really to explore how to move pain play away from punishment and into pleasure so that she can be taken carefully and skillfully through the pain to a feeling of being sorted and settled.

but it is a good point and it might be really useful if you could share how you reach catharsis and move this discussion to other methods.

the thing is she asked me on the other side for some advice and i thought it would be better for her to get feed back from different perspectives, youres would be a perfect example of that.

there is nothing to say that spanking is the only route open to her or anyone at all - its just that that is the 'mode' they have been using so far.

thanks

I really have to stop reading these posts... My head was in a weird place last night, I wound up not going to a bday party... and all I could think of was a spanking to get my head back in order.... *sigh* ...and I´m not even into pain.

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RE: spanking - punishment v play. - 4/15/2010 1:26:40 PM

lally2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jbcurious
.

- im not into pain either - but i am into dealing with it, processing it, getting through it and the settled feeling from the struggle within myself i get from submitting to it and my D. - wierd huh?

sorry you missed youre party tho

< Message edited by lally2 -- 4/15/2010 1:27:27 PM >

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RE: spanking - punishment v play. - 4/17/2010 9:46:57 AM

LeatherBentOne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chellekitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: LeatherBentOne

Start with sensual play, slowly tantillizing all 5 senses. I helps if you ask the sub to close their eyes, so they wont be distracted.

wouldn't that make it 4 out of 5 senses?

Not necessarily. As a rule people dont walk around (or whatever) with their eyes closed. I think sight deprivaion is a form of tantillizing the sense of sight.

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RE: spanking - punishment v play. - 4/17/2010 12:08:15 PM

Whiplashsmile4

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

Celeste, I did get aroused during punishment once, in spite of feeling bad emotionally that he was disappointed in me. It messed with my being able to enjoy regular non-punishment scenes for a week or two afterward, because I felt so strongly that I wasn't supposed to respond that way, and felt guilty and upset about it.

Shocking, ain't it :-) This is actually not all that uncommon for either side of the coin to occur. Just sort of leaves you a bit mentally stunned and having to mentally accept it.

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RE: spanking - punishment v play. - 4/17/2010 2:51:34 PM

Andalusite

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Yes, Whiplash, it really took me by surprise that it affected me that much. Just to clarify, it's not that I couldn't play at all or refused to, but I got all sub-droppy afterward and felt guilty for enjoying the play even though the punishment was over and he *wanted* me to like it. Emotions just aren't purely rational all the time! Back when my Master and I started dating, we discussed punishment, and I mentioned the reactions I'd had. He has the right to punish me, including physically if he chooses to. He feels that if I do something that requires punishment, there are other things he can do/make me do that will be more effective than CP. I try to be good, and so far, he hasn't felt the need to punish me for anything.

lally, I think that makes perfect sense, even though I *do* enjoy pain. It's not that you want to be punished for doing something wrong, but it can be very peaceful and feel stronger and more settled when you've gone through the pain and come out the other side.

bondsmaid, I didn't have the impression anyone was saying that lally's friend needed to get spanked if she didn't enjoy it, she was just asking for tips on how to move from one headspace to another with it. Personally, my pain tolerance has increased quite a bit over time, and I've dated people who started out as fairly uninterested in pain, who were able to find it very rewarding and enjoyable when approached the wrong way. I'm not trying to convince you to give it another try, but even a bad experience can be due more to circumstances rather than the person being unable to enjoy the activity at all.

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