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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/16/2010 3:10:52 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: intenze

I am confused about why they won't do DNA testing. It is simple and very reliable. That doesn't make any sense to me.


Because of the fallout of having an innocent man spending 25 years behind bars in a case where the prosecutors clearly withheld evidence.  In Colorado, the same thing happened - an innocent man was jailed for years on a silly murder charge that never should have held up.  He was shown to be innocent and sued and got millions for his incarceration, and the people are howling for the blood of the prosecutors that withheld evidence.



Steven, now that's a case where the death penalty *should* be applied!
What kind of monsters would knowingly let an innocent person remain in jail?


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/06/60minutes/main3914719.shtml

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/16/2010 5:22:23 AM   
LadyEllen


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Given the coverage we get over here of the US criminal justice system it would appear that negligent or incompetent investigations occur far too often, leading to far too many unsafe convictions in general as well as on death row. Its easy perhaps to blame it all on the Courts, but the Courts can only use the information provided to reach a conclusion; rubbish in, rubbish out as it were.

But then it is also discernible that there is a regrettable tendency in much of the US population (as here) to convict on mere suspicion or allegation, alongside a failure to comprehend the need for lawful and legal process and a preference for prejudiced conclusions as opposed to appropriate weighing up of evidence in reaching judgments. I also question how many would understand the difference between proven "on the balance of probabilities" and proven "beyond all reasonable doubt" and the appropriate application of those two concepts.

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/16/2010 10:17:24 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Test the stuff, for fuck's sake!  The idea is that we execute the GUILTY person, not the one who might have gotten a bad deal. 


If only that idea were more wide-spread.

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/16/2010 11:41:41 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
As I said earlier, no it isn't the kids fresh out of law school that are getting death penalty cases. It's a nice thought, but far from reality. Each Public Defender's office has different departments and the PD's fresh out of law school get municipal court, and petty misdemeanors. The Felony Murder section is for the attorneys that have proved themselves and put in the time.

Actually it differs widely across states.

In Texas there aren't public defenders on payroll in most counties. The job has long been filled by court appointed attornies. That is filled by lawyers who hang around the in session courtrooms looking to get appointed to cases by judges. This has resulted in many many cases of defence attornies being incompetent, drunk or presenting no defence at all. In Texas only the large cities have professional PD's and that is a fairly new develpoment.

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/16/2010 2:29:16 PM   
Missokyst


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Apparently, Texans

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
What kind of monsters would knowingly let an innocent person remain in jail?


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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/16/2010 4:03:45 PM   
stella41b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


If you had read my earlier posts, which I doubt since you commented on the case and what is likely happening without knowing anything about it, you would see that while I support the death penalty, that support is limited to cases where there isn't a shred of doubt. There is no way that Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy or Charles Manson should ever walk free again. There is also no reason that you or I as tax payers should continue to financially support them and give them more rights and luxuries that many poor people have.



Ah, so you favour the death penalty because it costs less? But what has cost got to do with law and order and justice? Prisons cost money, as do courts, the police, but following your logic you'd rather kill people off than financially support them, right? Okay, so knowing that far more people commit crimes such as theft, fraud, not to mention traffic offences such as speeding and illegal parking why don't we just implement the death penalty there? Think of all your taxpayer's money which could be saved if every speeding motorist or illegal parker was put to death.

The other thing is why do you think you are directly financially supporting these criminals? Are you contributing out of your household budget or your own pocket?

You see it's a bit like a shop or say Walmart. You go into Walmart, you buy what you want, and you pay for those good with money. Walmart takes your payment, and that money ceases to be your's and becomes Walmart's money.

The same thing happens with tax. You pay taxes for your services and once you have made those payments that money is no longer your's, but it belongs to the state or government, and it's their's to do with what they wish. The fact that you are a tax payer is irrelevant here.

If you were to draw up statistics over the frequency and popularity of crimes committed you will find that no matter where you are in the world murder is very much a minority crime. This is true especially when compared with the amount of people who commit crimes such as assault, burglary, theft, fraud, etc.

Those convicted for murder are very much in the minority among prisoners. They are not a burden to anyone, not to you, not to the prison system, not to the criminal justice system.

It's enough that they are effectively removed from society - permanently, with needing to kill them.

And pray tell me how can someone spending their life is a prison cell have more rights and luxuries than someone living in poverty? Are you really sure about this?


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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/16/2010 4:33:08 PM   
submaleinzona


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

The same thing happens with tax. You pay taxes for your services and once you have made those payments that money is no longer your's, but it belongs to the state or government, and it's their's to do with what they wish. The fact that you are a tax payer is irrelevant here.


Technically speaking, it's still the People's money, and the People still have a say in how it should be spent. I know that the government doesn't really care much about what the People think, but they should. They really should.

As for the main topic, I tend to agree that they should hold off on this execution until all the evidence is in. I have to admit that it does fill me with rage whenever innocent people are found guilty for things that they didn't do. It really shakes my confidence in a system that prides itself on considering someone innocent until proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt. They're supposedly "proven guilty" in a court of law, but if innocent people end up being found guilty, then they're not really proving people guilty, are they? How can someone be "proven" guilty if they are, in fact, innocent? That seems to violate some laws of physics in my mind.

What it means is that "proven" guilty doesn't really mean what it says it does. It tends to reduce and undermine what little faith I had in the justice system or the government in general.

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/16/2010 5:54:15 PM   
barelynangel


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quote:

Prosecutors are charged with finding truth. Defense attorneys are charged with giving their clients the best defense they can.

The problem with the system is that prosecutors don't work for truth but for convictions. And defense attorneys work for money.


You know this is bullshit. Just like any job you have a whole bell curve. Do not say shit like this as if its the truth because its not.


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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/16/2010 6:00:55 PM   
barelynangel


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Subtee, do you have a CLUE how prosecutor and public defender's offices work? I mean seriously?

There is no way in hell a 1st year prosecutor or defender would be handed a death penalty case. THEY MAY be allowed to help based upon doing research or preparing the hords of motions. But the felony courts are usually argued and oversaw by FELONY attorney's who are the experienced attorneys.


I am confused why you are all upset your ex is now a millionaire for doing his JOB?


< Message edited by barelynangel -- 3/16/2010 6:02:25 PM >


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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/16/2010 6:20:41 PM   
DarlingSavage


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

That's cool. But not at all what the death penalty is about.

Prosecutors are charged with finding truth. Defense attorneys are charged with giving their clients the best defense they can.

The problem with the system is that prosecutors don't work for truth but for convictions. And defense attorneys work for money.


Yes, I understand what the problem is. Furthermore, the prison/judicial system is inhumane. There's a whole lot wrong with the system. I don't know how to fix it. I wish I did. There has to be a better way. I'm not one of those people that thinks we need to constantly be crying for vengeance. I'm sure somebody is going to say something but I think that when people do bad things, they are either mentally ill or there is some other reason. Poverty is a big one.

quote:

not execute an innocent person is to not have a death penalty


How do you fix the problem of them having to be in prison for years over a crime they didn't even commit? What if they never get out? That totally fucking sucks! It makes me angry to think about it. And then our politicians keep screaming that they're going to be "tough on crime" until we get to the point where people serve sentences because they didn't dim their headlights or something.


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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/17/2010 3:32:45 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b


And pray tell me how can someone spending their life is a prison cell have more rights and luxuries than someone living in poverty? Are you really sure about this?



they sure seem to over here. did you see the report, last week I think it was, about the Muslim gangs in UK prisons taking over the drug and mobile phone trade and trying to recruit new members to their faith (how they claim to be men of faith I dont know) by showing them Al Quaeda videos - on their PS3s, which will of course be hooked up to TV sets.

contrast that with someone living in a squalid high rise or under a bridge.

E

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/17/2010 3:49:02 AM   
subtee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

quote:

Prosecutors are charged with finding truth. Defense attorneys are charged with giving their clients the best defense they can.

The problem with the system is that prosecutors don't work for truth but for convictions. And defense attorneys work for money.


You know this is bullshit. Just like any job you have a whole bell curve. Do not say shit like this as if its the truth because its not.



Yes, it was a sweeping generalization, never ever a good idea. Ha.

Consider the following:

A recent op-ed in the Florida Times-Union pointed to continuing problems in Florida’s death penalty system despite prior recommendations for change in an American Bar Association report three years ago. The article was written by Raoul Cantero III, a former Florida Supreme Court justice appointed by Gov. Jeb Bush, and Mark Schlakman, a senior program director for Florida State University's Center for the Advancement of Human Rights. The authors state that little has been done by either the state government or the Florida Bar Association in response to the ABA's findings. The ABA report addressed the often abysmal legal representation of defendants in post-conviction proceedings, socioeconomic and geographic bias in seeking the death penalty versus a life sentence, and lack of fairness and accuracy in the system. The authors note that these problems remain, but there is a chance that new political leaders could still bring about change: "The challenge for those who hold and aspire to elected office is to ensure that personal perspectives pertaining to capital punishment, and the public outrage arising out of heinous crimes, do not overshadow the fact that Florida's death penalty process is fraught with problems. Floridians expect a system of justice that engenders confidence based upon fairness and accuracy. With regard to the state's death penalty process, in many respects that standard has proven to be elusive."

Scott Phillips, a professor in the Department of Sociology and Criminology at the University of Denver, recently published a study that revealed disparities in who receives the death penalty inTexas. Phillips studied the 504 death penalty cases that occurred between 1992 and 1999 in Harris County (Houston and surrounding areas). Harris County is the largest jurisdiction in the United States to use a court-appointment system for selecting lawyers to defend indigent defendants. Phillips’s research showed stark differences between the defendants who were represented by hired counsel and those who were not, regardless of their socio-economic status. His study revealed that “those who can hire counsel for the entire case, or even a portion of the case, appear to be treated in a fundamentally different manner than those who cannot.” For the 504 death penalty cases examined, hiring counsel for the entire case eliminated the chance of a death sentence and resulted in more acquittals, and hiring counsel for at least a portion of the case substantially reduced the chance of a death sentence.

On September 22, the House Subcommittee on Terrorism, Crime and Homeland Security of the Judiciary Committee held hearings on the re-authorization of the Innocence Protection Act. Among those making presentations were noted defense attorneys Stephen Bright (pictured), President of the Southern Center for Human Rights in Atlanta, and Barry Scheck, Co-Director of the Innocence Project in New York. Mr. Bright emphasized that the best way to prevent wrongful convictions is to provide defendants with adequate representation: "The best protection against conviction of the innocent is competent representation for those accused of crimes and a properly working adversary system. Unfortunately, a very substantial number of jurisdictions throughout the country do not have either one." He noted that DNA testing is no substitute for good lawyers, especially since such evidence is not available in most cases: "Some people believe that we can rely on DNA testing to protect the innocent, but DNA testing reveals only a few wrongful convictions. In most cases, there is no biological evidence that can be tested. In those cases, we must rely on a properly working adversary system to bring out all the facts and help the courts find the truth."

On May 18, the U.S. Supreme Court granted certiorari in two death penalty cases. Both cases are likely to be argued in the fall. The Court accepted the defendant's petition in Wood v. Allen (No. 08-9156), a case from Alabama. Holly Wood claimed ineffective assistance of counsel, mental retardation, and discrimination in the jury selection process during his trial. After the trial, state and defense experts found that Wood, with an IQ below 70, had serious deficits in intellectual functioning and in at least one area of adaptive functioning--clear evidence of mental retardation. However, despite obvious pre-trial indications of this disability, the defense attorney presented no mitigating evidence on this issue to the jury during the penalty phase of the trial. The novice attorney had no experience in death penalty cases or in any criminal law. In federal habeas proceedings, the District Court vacated Wood’s death sentence due to ineffectiveness of counsel, stating that “[c]ounsel’s failure to investigate and present any evidence of intellectual functioning…is sufficient to undermine confidence in the application of the death sentence.”

These are from deathpenaltyinfo.org found from a quick google search.

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/17/2010 10:52:26 AM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b
Ah, so you favour the death penalty because it costs less? But what has cost got to do with law and order and justice? Prisons cost money, as do courts, the police, but following your logic you'd rather kill people off than financially support them, right? Okay, so knowing that far more people commit crimes such as theft, fraud, not to mention traffic offences such as speeding and illegal parking why don't we just implement the death penalty there? Think of all your taxpayer's money which could be saved if every speeding motorist or illegal parker was put to death.


stella,

You obviously didn't read my first post where I said:

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
For the record, while I support the death penalty, I also believe that ALL DNA evidence must be tested to either confirm or exclude the defendant as the actual perpetrator. I think the death penalty should not be permitted unless the percentage of circumstantial evidence is at an absolute minimum. In the cases I listed at the beginning of this post, there is NO doubt at all about the guilt of those defendants. Typically, the cost of imposing the death penalty actually costs MORE than a life sentence. It has cost the state of California far more to keep Charles Manson incarcerated at this point than it would have cost to execute him, but that situation is quite rare.


So obviously, no I do not support the death penalty because of its cost effectiveness. The even make the statement about applying the death penalty to theft, fraud or traffic offenses is ludicrous and quite frankly, beneath you. As you can see above, I believe it applies only in VERY SPECIFIC cases.

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b
The other thing is why do you think you are directly financially supporting these criminals? Are you contributing out of your household budget or your own pocket?


A portion of the taxes that people pay is applied to financially supporting the prisons. No, it doesn't come out of my household budget, but there are many things that would be better served with that tax money as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b
The same thing happens with tax. You pay taxes for your services and once you have made those payments that money is no longer your's, but it belongs to the state or government, and it's their's to do with what they wish. The fact that you are a tax payer is irrelevant here.


Actually, no it isn't quite the same as shopping at the Walmart, which, by the way, is a private business. It is not at the sole discretion of the government to use tax money as they wish. One only needs to look at some of the issues that have arisen over budgets to support that fact.

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b
If you were to draw up statistics over the frequency and popularity of crimes committed you will find that no matter where you are in the world murder is very much a minority crime. This is true especially when compared with the amount of people who commit crimes such as assault, burglary, theft, fraud, etc.

Those convicted for murder are very much in the minority among prisoners. They are not a burden to anyone, not to you, not to the prison system, not to the criminal justice system.

It's enough that they are effectively removed from society - permanently, with needing to kill them.


Actually, while you are correct that those imprisoned for felony murder would be in the "minority" in the prison, what you don't take into account is that those prisoners also cost more to house than your common thief or brawler. They are not in the general population of the prison, they are in higher security sections which require more of everything. More corrections officers, more equipment, more supervision.

It really isn't enough that they are effectively removed from society. As I also stated earlier, the goal of incarceration is not "punishment," but rehabilitation. That is why they are taught a trade, gaining a high school diploma, etc. The people who are on death row are there not simply because of their crimes, but because it is believed that they can not be rehabilitated and placed back in society. Again, let's look at Charles Manson. It is not possible to rehabilitate him. He does have a rather comfortable life in prison. In fact, it is really the only environment he has ever been truly comfortable in. The few short years that he was at Spawn Ranch with his "family" make up a very small portion of his life. The majority of his adolescence and young adulthood prior to that was spent in various forms of incarceration.

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b
And pray tell me how can someone spending their life is a prison cell have more rights and luxuries than someone living in poverty? Are you really sure about this?


Yes, I am sure about this. I actually worked for the Department of Corrections for the State of Florida. A prison inmate is provided with free health care, something that the working poor are often unable to obtain or afford. Remember, we do not have national health care here. A person in prison is able to obtain a college education. They certainly aren't paying for it. Eddie Sanchez, a violent offender who was serving life without parole had earned college credits from Berkley while incarcerated. Can someone who lives in poverty do that? Yes, they might receive grants, but to attend Berkley they would also need student loans that need to be repaid. Not the prison inmate though, their college degree is 100% paid for by the state. Amy Fischer earned her bachelor's degree while in prison. She did not pay for it out of her own pocket. Prison inmates receive 3 meals a day (which they often file lawsuits about). How many children living in poverty in this country don't receive 3 meals a day? Prison inmates have cable television, access to gym equipment. Poor families often can't afford cable, and gym equipment? Not available.

So yes stella, prison inmates are often treated better than the poor in the USA. It is a well documented, and often argued point.

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/17/2010 11:02:02 AM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Given the coverage we get over here of the US criminal justice system it would appear that negligent or incompetent investigations occur far too often, leading to far too many unsafe convictions in general as well as on death row. Its easy perhaps to blame it all on the Courts, but the Courts can only use the information provided to reach a conclusion; rubbish in, rubbish out as it were.


While any time it occurs it is "too much," the fact of the matter is that it is only those cases that we hear about on the news. We don't get news reports about the thousands of cases throughout the country where the investigations are complete and well done.

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b
But then it is also discernible that there is a regrettable tendency in much of the US population (as here) to convict on mere suspicion or allegation, alongside a failure to comprehend the need for lawful and legal process and a preference for prejudiced conclusions as opposed to appropriate weighing up of evidence in reaching judgments. I also question how many would understand the difference between proven "on the balance of probabilities" and proven "beyond all reasonable doubt" and the appropriate application of those two concepts.


Oh yes, on the high profile cases, the "court of public opinion" will convict faster than the courts, and the majority of citizens have no clue about the process at all. No one ever considers the fact that part of the problem is a direct result of juries. The majority of citizens want nothing more than to get excused from jury duty. Hell, my boyfriend just returned a jury duty notice, delighted that it went to his old address which was in a different county so he wouldn't be required to serve.

Those who are unable to get out of jury duty usually don't want to be there. Given that reality, does anyone think they are really listening to the proceedings as carefully as they should be? Does anyone think that they may make decisions based on their desire to get out quickly rather than really pay attention to the evidence and witnesses?

By the way, LE, here in the states, we call your "on the balance of probabilities" "by preponderance of the evidence."
I had a little chuckle when I read that and it took me a minute to realize what you were talking about, lol. In any case, all criminal matters are "beyond all reasonable doubt," and that definition is thoroughly explained in the jury instructions.

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/17/2010 11:09:48 AM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage


Yes, I understand what the problem is. Furthermore, the prison/judicial system is inhumane. There's a whole lot wrong with the system. I don't know how to fix it. I wish I did. There has to be a better way. I'm not one of those people that thinks we need to constantly be crying for vengeance. I'm sure somebody is going to say something but I think that when people do bad things, they are either mentally ill or there is some other reason. Poverty is a big one.



How is the prison system inhumane? These people have committed crimes and are being punished for them. Should we give them down mattresses and pillows and feed them filet mignon every day?

Obviously, there is something "mentally" wrong with someone who commits murder, rape, pedophilia, etc. However, not all of the mental issues that cause these things are "treatable" in such a way that the violent offender can ever be placed back into society and not re offend.

Poverty, believe it or not, is really not as big a factor as you might think when it comes to the truly violent offenders. Murderers and sex offenders are not from impoverished homes as often as you would think. Regardless of that, how does it qualify as an excuse? How many people living in poverty DON'T commit crimes?

< Message edited by LafayetteLady -- 3/17/2010 11:13:21 AM >

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/17/2010 11:43:42 AM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee
Consider the following:

A recent op-ed in the Florida Times-Union pointed to continuing problems in Florida’s death penalty system despite prior recommendations for change in an American Bar Association report three years ago. The article was written by Raoul Cantero III, a former Florida Supreme Court justice appointed by Gov. Jeb Bush, and Mark Schlakman, a senior program director for Florida State University's Center for the Advancement of Human Rights. The authors state that little has been done by either the state government or the Florida Bar Association in response to the ABA's findings. The ABA report addressed the often abysmal legal representation of defendants in post-conviction proceedings, socioeconomic and geographic bias in seeking the death penalty versus a life sentence, and lack of fairness and accuracy in the system. The authors note that these problems remain, but there is a chance that new political leaders could still bring about change: "The challenge for those who hold and aspire to elected office is to ensure that personal perspectives pertaining to capital punishment, and the public outrage arising out of heinous crimes, do not overshadow the fact that Florida's death penalty process is fraught with problems. Floridians expect a system of justice that engenders confidence based upon fairness and accuracy. With regard to the state's death penalty process, in many respects that standard has proven to be elusive."


The ABA report does not necessarily mean what you think it might. I was unable to find that particular report, but it easily could have been done by attorneys who are member of the ABA who are against the death penalty. Further, Mark Schlakman is against the death penalty, so anything he writes will be skewed to support his opposition of the death penalty. Statistics on these things can easily be manipulated and reported to support either side.

One VERY important thing to note. While there is all this talk about "socioeconomic" and "geographic" bias (which is politically correct way of saying "poor black/minority folk"), the REALITY is that there are more WHITE people on death row than any particular minority group. Why do I say "any" minority group? Because those against the death penalty will say simply "minorities." If you group all the minorities together, then yes it is a higher percentage, HOWEVER, you can't single out "whites" and say "all minority groups," because if you are going to do that, then "all minority groups" represent a larger portion of the total population of the United States than just "whites." See how easy it is to manipulate the statistics?

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee
Scott Phillips, a professor in the Department of Sociology and Criminology at the University of Denver, recently published a study that revealed disparities in who receives the death penalty inTexas. Phillips studied the 504 death penalty cases that occurred between 1992 and 1999 in Harris County (Houston and surrounding areas). Harris County is the largest jurisdiction in the United States to use a court-appointment system for selecting lawyers to defend indigent defendants. Phillips’s research showed stark differences between the defendants who were represented by hired counsel and those who were not, regardless of their socio-economic status. His study revealed that “those who can hire counsel for the entire case, or even a portion of the case, appear to be treated in a fundamentally different manner than those who cannot.” For the 504 death penalty cases examined, hiring counsel for the entire case eliminated the chance of a death sentence and resulted in more acquittals, and hiring counsel for at least a portion of the case substantially reduced the chance of a death sentence.


What is the criteria for "appears?" In his opinion? Again, this really isn't concrete data, is it? I have a huge issue with your quoted material here. Mr. Phillips has no problem stating the number of cases (504) that he "studied," yet he offers no data about how they "appear" to be treated better. He also states that those with hired counsel garnered different results but without any actual numbers? How many of those cases had hired counsel? How many had hired counsel for a portion of their case? Those numbers would be listed in huge bold print if they were actually significant enough to enumerate. The fact that he doesn't is questionable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee
On September 22, the House Subcommittee on Terrorism, Crime and Homeland Security of the Judiciary Committee held hearings on the re-authorization of the Innocence Protection Act. Among those making presentations were noted defense attorneys Stephen Bright (pictured), President of the Southern Center for Human Rights in Atlanta, and Barry Scheck, Co-Director of the Innocence Project in New York. Mr. Bright emphasized that the best way to prevent wrongful convictions is to provide defendants with adequate representation: "The best protection against conviction of the innocent is competent representation for those accused of crimes and a properly working adversary system. Unfortunately, a very substantial number of jurisdictions throughout the country do not have either one." He noted that DNA testing is no substitute for good lawyers, especially since such evidence is not available in most cases: "Some people believe that we can rely on DNA testing to protect the innocent, but DNA testing reveals only a few wrongful convictions. In most cases, there is no biological evidence that can be tested. In those cases, we must rely on a properly working adversary system to bring out all the facts and help the courts find the truth."


Although both of these men are anti death penalty, stating that "competent representation" is the best protection is pretty much a "no brainer." If you have an idiot for an attorney, then you can't expect much.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee
On May 18, the U.S. Supreme Court granted certiorari in two death penalty cases. Both cases are likely to be argued in the fall. The Court accepted the defendant's petition in Wood v. Allen (No. 08-9156), a case from Alabama. Holly Wood claimed ineffective assistance of counsel, mental retardation, and discrimination in the jury selection process during his trial. After the trial, state and defense experts found that Wood, with an IQ below 70, had serious deficits in intellectual functioning and in at least one area of adaptive functioning--clear evidence of mental retardation. However, despite obvious pre-trial indications of this disability, the defense attorney presented no mitigating evidence on this issue to the jury during the penalty phase of the trial. The novice attorney had no experience in death penalty cases or in any criminal law. In federal habeas proceedings, the District Court vacated Wood’s death sentence due to ineffectiveness of counsel, stating that “[c]ounsel’s failure to investigate and present any evidence of intellectual functioning…is sufficient to undermine confidence in the application of the death sentence.”


Without actual knowledge of the case, and even though mental retardation can eliminate the death penalty, that doesn't mean that it shouldn't. The criteria for mentally incompetent is that the defendant is incapable of rationally recognizing what they did to be wrong.

There was a case in Florida several years ago. A man killed his ex girlfriend's new boyfriend by chopping off his head with a machete. He then took the severed head and placed it on the hood of a car in front of a mirror, "in case the head wanted to look at itself." Clearly, this man is not mentally competent. He also had several other violent offenses in his past. The State of Florida needed to prove his competency to be tried for that horrible murder. Now, many of you might ask "why? He needs psychological help." As I said, he had several other violent crimes in his past. He was found incompetent to stand trial for those. Florida law, however, only permits him to be committed to a psychiatric facility for 5 years maximum. Regardless of his mental issues, he obviously can not be safely released into society, yet if he didn't stand trial, he would be released in 5 years for a heinous murder. The whole "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" scenario where one would be committed for the term of their sentence may not be the case. Facilities for the "criminally insane" aren't really available.

The only other option everyone suggests is life without parole. But no one seems to be able to answer how that serves society, or the very real fact that sentences of "life without parole" can and have been changed and the convicted given parole due to overcrowding.

(in reply to subtee)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/17/2010 2:49:04 PM   
subtee


Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline
I find so much wrong with your responses it makes me tired. Also, I'm manufacturing mucho mucus and have little energy for anything else.

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 37
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