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Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/15/2010 5:36:24 PM   
stella41b


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Texas is preparing to execute Hank Skinner for a triple murder allegedly committed by him in 1993 in Pampa.

However:

quote:



Sam Millsap, a former Texas district attorney from San Antonio, recently called for DNA testing in the case of Hank Skinner, who is scheduled for execution on March 24.  Texas has so far refused to conduct additional DNA tests on critical evidence from the crime scene that could support Skinner's claim of innocence. For the last decade, the state has blocked DNA testing of key pieces of evidence, including a knife that might be the murder weapon and a man's windbreaker found next to the victim's body, which had blood, sweat and hair on it. Skinner's trial attorney failed to investigate another potential suspect, a man who was a relative of the victim and wore a windbreaker like the one found at the murder scene.  Millsap stated, "Since 1973, 139 people in 26 states have been released from death row based on evidence of their innocence. Eleven of them were in Texas. Many of these people were freed because of DNA evidence. But DNA testing works only if we use it … It is cases like Skinner's that ended my lifelong support for the death penalty. Any system driven by the decisions of human beings will produce mistakes."



Also DNA testing works, but not if we fail to utilize it

We're talking here about a man who has spent 25 years on Death Row in Texas. Yes, that's right, 25 years or a quarter of a century and where the truth still isn't known and his guilt still isn't proven beyond any reasonable doubt.

This isn't an isolated incident either. In 2004 Cameron Willingham was executed (convicted in 1992) despite four national arson experts stating that his original investigation was flawed and it's possible that the fire was accidental. Gary Graham (convicted in 1981) was executed in 2000 on the basis of one eye witness claiming she saw the killer's face for a few seconds through her car windshield from 30-40 feet away, whilst two other witnesses testified that they got a good look at the attacker and they testified it wasn't Graham. There's also serious doubts as to the guilt of David Spence (convicted in 1984) executed in 1997, Ruben Cantu (convicted 1985) executed in 1993, and Carlos DeLuna (convicted 1983) executed in 1989.

All these cases are from Texas. There are more in other states.

This could well be also just the tip of the iceberg. Courts do not entertain claims of innocence when defendants are dead. Defense attorneys tend also to move onto other cases where their clients' lives can be saved.

This is not justice, not if you cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty of the crimes as charged.

You cannot claim that mistakes are inevitable, not when someone's life is at stake.

More than thirty years have passed since the first post-Furman execution was carried out on Gary Gilmore in Utah. If you're still executing innocent people then to me it's high time to call a moratorium and start looking for alternative, better solutions than the death penalty.

Any solution would be better than one which accepts that innocent people can be murdered for crimes they didn't commit.



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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/15/2010 5:48:08 PM   
intenze


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I am confused about why they won't do DNA testing. It is simple and very reliable. That doesn't make any sense to me.

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/15/2010 6:15:39 PM   
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The executions should have stopped a long time ago, everywhere.

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/15/2010 6:56:02 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: intenze

I am confused about why they won't do DNA testing. It is simple and very reliable. That doesn't make any sense to me.


Because of the fallout of having an innocent man spending 25 years behind bars in a case where the prosecutors clearly withheld evidence.  In Colorado, the same thing happened - an innocent man was jailed for years on a silly murder charge that never should have held up.  He was shown to be innocent and sued and got millions for his incarceration, and the people are howling for the blood of the prosecutors that withheld evidence.


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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/15/2010 7:48:36 PM   
LafayetteLady


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I'm going to start (please withhold the flames, they mean nothing) that I AM a supporter of the death penalty. I don't dispute that in this case, it is not clear cut. However, I also dispute how there is a "better" alternative for Charles Manson (whose death sentence was commuted), Terry McNichols, Son of Sam, Ted Bundy, or Jeffrey Dahmer just to site a few.

But moving on....

Texas has the highest number of executions in the entire country. In all states (that still have the death penalty), the prosecution must request the death penalty, and the crime must meet certain heinous criteria to even qualify. Even then the defendant may not get a sentence of death. Some states, I believe, allow a jury to determine sentencing, but most, again I believe, leave that decision to a judge.

Once a death sentence is handed down, there are automatic appeals and the case is supposed to be gone over with a fine tooth comb. Each upper branch of the judiciary reviews the case for errors and the defense is also supposed to be reviewing the case to determine if there is any appealable error and investigate (to a point) in search of new evidence. If there is no appealable error, only new evidence can be brought on appeal. It must be evidence that was unavailable and reasonably undiscovered at the original trial. The "timeline" for appeals on Death Row cases goes straight to the time of execution. The public defenders provided to death row inmates (if they don't have private counsel) specialize ONLY in death row cases.

In the article you provided the link for, one thing is very puzzling. Although written by a previous Prosecutor who has practiced law for 35 years, he makes the statement that "Skinner's attorney failed to investigate another potential subject." It is not the job of the defense to investigate other leads. Yes it can help to prove innocence, but ultimately those leads are supposed to be provided to the police and the police should be investigating them. This man was arrested in 1995, not 1985. He has spent 15 years in prison. In 1995 I am not sure if DNA testing was as conclusive as it is today, but again, the evidence should have been tested for DNA even when it was not because in the early stages, while it could not conclusively prove that someone committed a crime, it very much could conclusively exclude someone as a suspect. It was always possible to exclude someone beyond all doubt. Admittedly though, there were times when it could not exclude or include someone conclusively. Obviously, for someone who is claiming innocence, the risk is worth it.

His attorneys have sent a Request for 30 day Reprieve to the Governor and an Order from the Governor to grant the DNA testing. In that letter they also state that substantial NEW evidence has come to light.

The Reqest for 30 Day Reprieve is 17 pages long, and outlines the trial and the new evidence. I'm going to read that letter and possibly pull up the actual case to get more details.

On the face of what I have read so far (which is NOT the article you provided Stella), it does seem as though the police and prosecutorial investigators did not properly do their job.

I do believe that the reprieve will be granted, but I haven't read everything yet to really see what is going on.

For the record, while I support the death penalty, I also believe that ALL DNA evidence must be tested to either confirm or exclude the defendant as the actual perpetrator. I think the death penalty should not be permitted unless the percentage of circumstantial evidence is at an absolute minimum. In the cases I listed at the beginning of this post, there is NO doubt at all about the guilt of those defendants. Typically, the cost of imposing the death penalty actually costs MORE than a life sentence. It has cost the state of California far more to keep Charles Manson incarcerated at this point than it would have cost to execute him, but that situation is quite rare.

After I have reviewed all the rest of the information, I will post more.

DarkSteven,

Many states have put "caps" on what the wrongfully imprisoned can recover. However, in this case, again on the face of what I have read so far, it would appear that there is much more at play than the wrong person simply being convicted, and therefore, much more at stake than the "fear" of a large monetary award.

When there is a case where the police or the prosecution has failed to in their duty to fully investigate and has willfully ignored other evidence, ALL the cases that those particular people were involved in investigating are now brought into question and EACH AND EVERY one of them must be reviewed.


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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/15/2010 9:36:43 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: intenze

I am confused about why they won't do DNA testing. It is simple and very reliable. That doesn't make any sense to me.


Because of the fallout of having an innocent man spending 25 years behind bars in a case where the prosecutors clearly withheld evidence.  In Colorado, the same thing happened - an innocent man was jailed for years on a silly murder charge that never should have held up.  He was shown to be innocent and sued and got millions for his incarceration, and the people are howling for the blood of the prosecutors that withheld evidence.



Steven, now that's a case where the death penalty *should* be applied!
What kind of monsters would knowingly let an innocent person remain in jail?

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/15/2010 9:38:51 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Steven, now that's a case where the death penalty *should* be applied!
What kind of monsters would knowingly let an innocent person remain in jail?


The prosecutors get "graded" on how many convictions they get.  So some got slimy and bypassed ethics in order to get more convictions.

Ambitious folks in the Masters case.  They had all become judges by the time the shit hit the fan.


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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/15/2010 9:47:10 PM   
subtee


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The Creature (my ex) got a dude off after he had served 27 years. Prosecution and police colluded to present false evidence. Now The
Creature is a millionaire.

Just couldn't be more wrong, and happens every day. Seriously, should The Creature be a millionaire???? Oh yeah, and the dude shouldn't have been locked up either.

Our system of justice was founded on the principle of better to let a guilty man/woman go free than to let an innocent man/woman be condemned. This means no death penalty. Come to Iowa, we don't got it.

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/15/2010 10:07:07 PM   
DarlingSavage


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I believe in the Death Penalty, but only because I think it is inhumane to keep any living creature behind bars for the entirety of its life. However, FUCKIN' TX! I know I'm a native of this state and I was raised to be proud of that, but sometimes, for the life of me, I don't know why! Fuckin' A, we have DNA which can prove that someone is innocent or guilty, then it should be utilized, dammit!

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/15/2010 10:09:00 PM   
subtee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage

I believe in the Death Penalty, but only because I think it is inhumane to keep any living creature behind bars for the entirety of its life. [snip]


Ask the convicts if they find it inhumane.

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/15/2010 10:13:05 PM   
DarlingSavage


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage

I believe in the Death Penalty, but only because I think it is inhumane to keep any living creature behind bars for the entirety of its life. [snip]


Ask the convicts if they find it inhumane.


I'm just speaking for myself, but I know that if I did something that I knew I was going to spend the rest of my life in prison and never be able to be with a man again or be outside or be free again, I would prefer that they kill me. Someone mentioned giving such prisoners a choice. I think that would be the truly humane thing to do.

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/15/2010 10:16:50 PM   
subtee


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That's cool. But not at all what the death penalty is about.

Prosecutors are charged with finding truth. Defense attorneys are charged with giving their clients the best defense they can.

The problem with the system is that prosecutors don't work for truth but for convictions. And defense attorneys work for money.

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/15/2010 10:35:59 PM   
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Texas is a state that executed a man whose attorney slept in the courtroom through large portions of his murder trial, on the grounds that the condemned man did not complain about it in a timely fashion. I'd say give the whole backward 14th Century fiefdom back to the Mexicans, except they'd probably consider it too barbaric to accept.

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/15/2010 10:45:20 PM   
TheHeretic


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Test the stuff, for fuck's sake!  The idea is that we execute the GUILTY person, not the one who might have gotten a bad deal. 

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/15/2010 10:48:51 PM   
subtee


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They're doing that, love, but it's expensive and courts refuse.

Also too, even DNA isn't always reliable.

The only way, the ONLY way to assuredly not execute an innocent person is to not have a death penalty. It can all be corrupted.

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/15/2010 11:10:14 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

That's cool. But not at all what the death penalty is about.

Prosecutors are charged with finding truth. Defense attorneys are charged with giving their clients the best defense they can.

The problem with the system is that prosecutors don't work for truth but for convictions. And defense attorneys work for money.


Not true. A good portion of death penalty cases are defended by Public Defenders. They ain't in it for the money, because compared to private practice, they aren't making any.

The prosecutors should be concerned with the truth and many are. But they also have a boss they have to answer to, and if that boss is telling them to go forward with the evidence they are given, they don't have a lot of choice to do otherwise.

It would be nice if we could blame all the injustice on the attorneys, but that just isn't always the case.

I did some research on this case since my first post. This case was a clusterfuck from the word go. The case against Skinner is not entirely out of line. The son who was there? Yes he was a big boy. He was also developmentally challenged and suffered from Muscular Dystrophy, not exactly the big strong defender of mom the press would have you believe. Skinner apparently does have some violence in his background.

His trial counsel was pathetically ineffective. What I didn't find was an appeal based on effective counsel, which would have been helpful in the long run. This uncle was never investigated by the police regardless of his rather odd behavior and previous convictions, but what is more strange is why the defense didn't call him as a witness. The neighbor who initially lied because she was worried about being named as accessory? What would give her such an idea? Especially if Skinner was so incoherent that nothing he was saying was making sense? The wound on Skinner's hand is still very odd. While the defense calls it a defensive wound, that he was essentially attacked and then fled the house, they also claim he was so staggeringly inebriated and drugged that he couldn't even walk. If he isn't the killer, and the real killer wanted to kill everyone in the house, why did he let Skinner go? He would have certainly be easy to catch being falling down drunk. That doesn't add up. Skinner admitted he was drinking and said he had taken Xanax. Xanax wasn't found in his system, codiene was. He claims to be allergic to codiene, so where did the codiene come from?

At the end of the day, the Governor is likely to grant the Request for A 30 Day Reprieve. The request is very public, and there is enough public outcry on the case that the Governor has nothing to lose by granting the request. The problem, though is that in this case, the DNA will definately leave some questions unanswered. The person that they are claiming is the "real" killer is now dead. Is his DNA even available?

I will be watching to see how this one plays out.

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/15/2010 11:18:11 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

They're doing that, love, but it's expensive and courts refuse.

Also too, even DNA isn't always reliable.

The only way, the ONLY way to assuredly not execute an innocent person is to not have a death penalty. It can all be corrupted.


Actually, portions of the DNA have already been tested. It was ordered by the Prosecutor in, I believe, something like 2000. They have requested the notes from the testing center (which they are entitled to) and all the results because for some reason they did not receive reports on it all.

Also the Medill Innocence Project has already offered to absorb 100% of the expense of the testing, so the cost isn't an issue.

Actually, DNA is more often than not extremely reliable. If it wasn't, it wouldn't even be admissible in a trial. It can, with complete certainty EXCLUDE people, which in this case is what they are attempting to do.

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/15/2010 11:20:32 PM   
subtee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

That's cool. But not at all what the death penalty is about.

Prosecutors are charged with finding truth. Defense attorneys are charged with giving their clients the best defense they can.

The problem with the system is that prosecutors don't work for truth but for convictions. And defense attorneys work for money.


Not true. A good portion of death penalty cases are defended by Public Defenders. They ain't in it for the money, because compared to private practice, they aren't making any.

The prosecutors should be concerned with the truth and many are. But they also have a boss they have to answer to, and if that boss is telling them to go forward with the evidence they are given, they don't have a lot of choice to do otherwise.

It would be nice if we could blame all the injustice on the attorneys, but that just isn't always the case.

I did some research on this case since my first post. This case was a clusterfuck from the word go. The case against Skinner is not entirely out of line. The son who was there? Yes he was a big boy. He was also developmentally challenged and suffered from Muscular Dystrophy, not exactly the big strong defender of mom the press would have you believe. Skinner apparently does have some violence in his background.

His trial counsel was pathetically ineffective. What I didn't find was an appeal based on effective counsel, which would have been helpful in the long run. This uncle was never investigated by the police regardless of his rather odd behavior and previous convictions, but what is more strange is why the defense didn't call him as a witness. The neighbor who initially lied because she was worried about being named as accessory? What would give her such an idea? Especially if Skinner was so incoherent that nothing he was saying was making sense? The wound on Skinner's hand is still very odd. While the defense calls it a defensive wound, that he was essentially attacked and then fled the house, they also claim he was so staggeringly inebriated and drugged that he couldn't even walk. If he isn't the killer, and the real killer wanted to kill everyone in the house, why did he let Skinner go? He would have certainly be easy to catch being falling down drunk. That doesn't add up. Skinner admitted he was drinking and said he had taken Xanax. Xanax wasn't found in his system, codiene was. He claims to be allergic to codiene, so where did the codiene come from?

At the end of the day, the Governor is likely to grant the Request for A 30 Day Reprieve. The request is very public, and there is enough public outcry on the case that the Governor has nothing to lose by granting the request. The problem, though is that in this case, the DNA will definately leave some questions unanswered. The person that they are claiming is the "real" killer is now dead. Is his DNA even available?

I will be watching to see how this one plays out.


Right on public defenders take these cases. They are usually fresh out of law school or they are so incompetent they can't sustain private practice. They need the money. Good defense attorneys make their fees and they don't gamble them on the low and downtrodden. Having a history of crime should in no way implicate guilt in a death penalty case. Take a look at who is on death row--it isn't the rich and white folks. It's those who are presumed guilty so that neither prosecutor nor defense attorney needs expend much energy for a result that is far too predictable. Now put yourself in that position.

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/15/2010 11:27:28 PM   
subtee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

They're doing that, love, but it's expensive and courts refuse.

Also too, even DNA isn't always reliable.

The only way, the ONLY way to assuredly not execute an innocent person is to not have a death penalty. It can all be corrupted.


Actually, portions of the DNA have already been tested. It was ordered by the Prosecutor in, I believe, something like 2000. They have requested the notes from the testing center (which they are entitled to) and all the results because for some reason they did not receive reports on it all.

Also the Medill Innocence Project has already offered to absorb 100% of the expense of the testing, so the cost isn't an issue.

Actually, DNA is more often than not extremely reliable. If it wasn't, it wouldn't even be admissible in a trial. It can, with complete certainty EXCLUDE people, which in this case is what they are attempting to do.
Like I said, it can all be corrupted. Therefore, the ONLY WAY to assure that an innocent person is not put to death is to not have a death penalty.

Would you rather an innocent person be put to death so that most of the guilty are also put to death? Or would you rather a guilty person go free in order that no innocent person be put to death. It is a foundation of "American justice."

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RE: Isn't it now time for a moratorium? - 3/16/2010 12:13:21 AM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

Right on public defenders take these cases. They are usually fresh out of law school or they are so incompetent they can't sustain private practice. They need the money. Good defense attorneys make their fees and they don't gamble them on the low and downtrodden. Having a history of crime should in no way implicate guilt in a death penalty case. Take a look at who is on death row--it isn't the rich and white folks. It's those who are presumed guilty so that neither prosecutor nor defense attorney needs expend much energy for a result that is far too predictable. Now put yourself in that position.


As I said earlier, no it isn't the kids fresh out of law school that are getting death penalty cases. It's a nice thought, but far from reality. Each Public Defender's office has different departments and the PD's fresh out of law school get municipal court, and petty misdemeanors. The Felony Murder section is for the attorneys that have proved themselves and put in the time.

I'm sure it is nice and convenient to think that all the public defenders are bumbling incompetent idiots. The claim that death row is comprised of the poor and the minorities because all the rich folks get off with high priced attorneys is old and not ture. How many convicts claim they are innocent? How many actually are?

If you had read my earlier posts, which I doubt since you commented on the case and what is likely happening without knowing anything about it, you would see that while I support the death penalty, that support is limited to cases where there isn't a shred of doubt. There is no way that Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy or Charles Manson should ever walk free again. There is also no reason that you or I as tax payers should continue to financially support them and give them more rights and luxuries that many poor people have.

I believe that DNA testing should be utilized whenever available. I am delighted for all the people who have been freed through DNA testing and wish that it had been available sooner. However, the reality is that in nearly 40 years, 139 people have been freed based on new evidence, some of which was DNA evidence that proved their innocence. Would you care to guess what percentage that is of all the convicted and incarcerated felons in that amount of time? I do not know the exact number, but I'm willing to bet it is less than 1%.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

Like I said, it can all be corrupted. Therefore, the ONLY WAY to assure that an innocent person is not put to death is to not have a death penalty.

Would you rather an innocent person be put to death so that most of the guilty are also put to death? Or would you rather a guilty person go free in order that no innocent person be put to death. It is a foundation of "American justice."


Actually I would rather fix the system so that criminals were freed on technicalities and improve the foresics that are used in trials. The majority of court systems throughout the country are not corrupt.

And no, I do not want guilty people to go free. As it is, sentences are being reduced and felons are being paroled much earlier because of overcrowding. The foundation of the penal system is rehabilitation. That is not happening, further, some people can not be rehabilitated. Should we pay for them to live out their lives in prison? Should we pay for them to files Motion upon Motion complaining about the food, the lack of having "Penthouse," the internet or cable television? The people of New York paid for Amy Fischer to get a bachelor's degree while serving her time for shooting Maryann Buttufucco. Did the state you live in pay for YOU to get a college degree?

The system is far from perfect, I don't deny that. But to even think the solution is to set the convicted free in the hopes that one out of ten thousand will be innocent is illogical.

Would you like that convicted child molester living next door to you and your family? The now free Hammerskin to be gathering his friends across the street from you? Do you want the gang member who was released moving to your street and subjecting your kids to drive bys? Because I don't.

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