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just friends? - 3/6/2010 9:39:42 PM   
reconsidering


Posts: 4
Joined: 3/6/2010
Status: offline 		My partner is a good person. We have lots of things we do outside kink. Life happens and it wears you out and it can dampen the drive. But when do you admit there is no sex drive without the kink, so you are really just loving friends who do occasionally kinky stuff together? I like that we are friends. I just want to get laid, too, sometimes. We haven't been together long enough for it to be this passionless.

I love my parnter. They say they love me and i'm sure they mean it. I actually do like them and would still hang out with them if we never had sex again, but i can't decide if this is just another "lull" which we have a lot of unless i'm pushing it, or if this is how it really is and the kink is the only thing that turns them on? We're both worn out from reall life, and if i don't push and use kinky talk to try to get them thinking about sex, nothing happens. Not even holding hands. I want to be seduced  sometimes. I want have someone reaching for me first half the time. I want the same energy and attention to my pleasure that i try to give them, but it's starting to feel one sided and its just not as fun anymore. Sometimes it is so good I can't stand it, but it's almost always me devoting lots of time and work to them on bottom, and it's just not coming back.

I know the first answer is 'don't play with anyone you can't talk to about problems' but if it comes up, they just feel bad and withdraw completely and then i don't get anything at all, in the bedroom or in real life. I like the stuff we do outside the bedroom, too, and i lose that, too.
I could stop trying so hard and they'll feel I'm witholding or withdrawing, and i don't want to hurt them just to get my fair share. That's not healthy. I could  leave and hope to find better elsewhere, but i haven't met anyone i'd really want more, or who i would enjoy as much outside of sex. I could just let us be friends until they decide they are horny and want to pursue, but im already starting to feel deprived and angry from waiting. I need to feel sexy and powerful to give them what they want, and I just don't anymore. So it's fizzled, and i'm getting tired of trying to get it going again. I dont want to lose the fun we started having, and they say they want it too, but it seems like it's all on my shoulders to make it happen.

I guess I already know what i'd tell someone else, so i guess i'm just venting  hoping someone else will have some angle i don't see. I will probably wait, because i do love them, and keep trying to spark something, but its depressing the hell out of me and i can feel myself starting to resent this helpless feeling. This isn't how it should be, and i can't top this way.
I want my turn. I don't want to have to demand it. I want them to offer. I want them to want to.
When is it my turn to get?

signed
burning out too soon
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: just friends? - 3/6/2010 9:42:53 PM   
Smutmonger


Posts: 995
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		This is why I only say "no one but friends right now."

I still try to find some shared passions beyond the flesh.

Have you?

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RE: just friends? - 3/6/2010 10:03:25 PM   
reconsidering


Posts: 4
Joined: 3/6/2010
Status: offline 		I thought i explained that pretty clearly but maybe not.
We do lots of things not of the flesh. I am having trouble getting things that are of the flesh. I like that we are friends. But if that's all we are, i need to find someone else for doing fleshy things. If we aren't just friends, then i need to do more fleshy things and get what i'm giving. I'm too young for love to be platonic and for BDSM to mean me giving a lot of kinky attention but not getting any.

I need fleshy attention too. I need to be seduced sometimes. How do i make that happen without hurting their feelings and making them feel like they are a lousy lover?

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RE: just friends? - 3/6/2010 10:10:40 PM   
Smutmonger


Posts: 995
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		What else has changed since the inception?

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I didn't get into an alternative lifestyle to explore new frontiers in conformity.

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RE: just friends? - 3/6/2010 10:22:11 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		Not that it may not just be your own preferences, but this sounds like projected expectations based on expected gender and dynamic roles. You're not initiating because you want to be initiated upon. So is the fix really just being initiated upon or do you actually care about where the result of an initiation will go?

Perhaps if so much of your self-assessment wasn't riding on this need to not be the initiator (when clearly it is you that wants it) it wouldn't create this stigma to where you feel the moment or event is somehow cheapened if it doesn't happen in the magical telepathic sort of way.

It reminds me of a line of lyrics from a Kate Nash song:

"I wish that you knew when I said two sugars...actually, I meant three."

And if, as you say, you "need" those things and s/he happens to not be good at procuring them, in compatibility with you s/he may be a lousy lover. At which point you accept what you have or you decline and move on. 'Tis life.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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(in reply to Smutmonger)
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RE: just friends? - 3/6/2010 10:59:36 PM   
reconsidering


Posts: 4
Joined: 3/6/2010
Status: offline 		"Not that it may not just be your own preferences, but this sounds like projected expectations based on expected gender and dynamic roles."
See, i feel like I'm falling back INTO the pre-programmed gender role and i hate it. "me woman, me do for man and accept lack of fullfillment without question." It just happens. I ask for what i want and when i encounter resistance or lack of enthusiasm, i work around it and usually just let it drop.  just like my mother before me and her mother before her, the needs and wants of others end up being all that get met. Topping becomes serving.

""You're not initiating because you want to be initiated upon."
I initiate. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it's met with resistance or disinterest. Often initiating results in my spending an hour or two giving attention. I need it returned more often.

"So is the fix really just being initiated upon or do you actually care about where the result of an initiation will go? "
I need a closed circuit. The fix comes from the giving and reciving and back and forth. If I don't remember the last time my partner initiated, or the last time we both gave equally, then where is it going? I love when there is not a destination or a plan, if that's what you mean, but there needs to be a give and take. Not just willingness to recive.

"Perhaps if so much of your self-assessment wasn't riding on this need to not be the initiator (when clearly it is you that wants it)"
But it's not supposed to be just me that wants it. If they keep saying how much they want it, but then don't act on it or only seem enthusiastic when they are reciving the attention, when do i decide they don't really want it and are lying to make me feel good? And they get upset/offended when i say "if you aren't interested in it anymore, it's ok to say so."  All decision making is left up to me, too. The desire to do whatever I want is often expressed, but the things I say I want never actually appear. I can say "I want this." I mean, I am asked what I want, and I say "tonight, do this" and then later I'm asked again "well, what do you want to do?" and I can remind them of what I said and it still doesn't happen. When I ask what they want, they just say "whatever you want to do."
I'm stuck in a loop. I'm trapped in a spiral of "I dunno, what do YOU want to do" and I feel like I'm putting out suggestion after suggestion trying to find the one that isn't met with indifference, and accepting minimum effort rather than not do anything ever again. Honesty hurts their feelings no matter how gentle, and their actions are at odds with their words, and if they just want to be friends and not do this anymore, that is informed consent, right? INFORM ME so I can choose a course of action. Or so i can consent to lack of action.
Again, how can i deal honestly with this without crushing them,  and get honesty in return?

(in reply to NihilusZero)
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RE: just friends? - 3/6/2010 11:04:10 PM   
reconsidering


Posts: 4
Joined: 3/6/2010
Status: offline 		And Smut, I can't say much of anything has changed. This seems to be normal for us. General low interest with sudden gusts of intense kinky interest followed by seeming total lack of interest. That's why i think it's actually not interest, and just friends but they don't want to lose the option of kink.

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RE: just friends? - 3/7/2010 12:20:05 AM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		[noting the types of responses you don't like]

if your partner is of the same age as you it may be a drop in hormones...

[/noting the types of responses you don't like]

your post screams MEMEME...maybe it would be better for your partner if you were just friends and stopped using "them"...but I'm not talking about "until they are horny enough"...I'm talking about until you're both willing to meet eachothers *needs*...not wants, but *needs* and yes I believe sex (before a certain point and that point is different for everyone) is just as essential of a need as any other non-essential physical need - like housing and clothes - and I'm sorry but that means the three c's: communication, communication and communication...and if you can't do that then perhaps they are not as good a match as you think...

_____________________________

One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

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RE: just friends? - 3/7/2010 1:24:20 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		it could also be that theyre just not very good at reaching out for sex.  you say he responds to you kinkily (so thats good) but is it possible that his submissiveness extends to being unable to ask or make an advance.  is it possible that he just doesnt have the confidence it takes to push himself on you.

the holding hands is almost a giveaway on this.  i have to really force myself sometimes to make that little gesture of 'need' or 'togetherness' because i feel as if im making a demand - i know it isnt really, i know that i can slip my hand into his and he'll happily hold it. 

sometimes, for some people, if they come from a past where emotional or physical need is never expressed they grow up a little unsure of themselves, even when they know it would never be rejected.

do you think its something you could help him with.  you say you havent been together for very long, this sort of stuff takes time.

if he has a problem with outward expressions of need and togetherness then it will make them retreat when you get upset and demanding about it.  they are failing you in something you want, something they cant give that easily, it is an internal struggle that requires pushing themselves through learned behaviour issues and it exposes a weakness they are accutely aware of but feel pretty much powerless to manage.

you can turn it into a game.  tell him that if he puts his hand in youres just once today he'll get ....... whatever he enjoys - or he'll get an ice cream or something he likes, but you could make it fun and take the pressure right away by adding laughter.  when he does just give him a little squeeze of the hand he's given to you, make very little of it right then, accept it quietly and go buy him an ice cream, or whatever it is he likes.  if you make a big fuss youre putting the spot light on him and thats too much pressure again.  in fact the more you get upset about this the more you will push him away, he needs help on this and it has to be done gently, no pressure, little baby steps.

just another angle (possibly)


< Message edited by lally2 -- 3/7/2010 2:07:49 AM >

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

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RE: just friends? - 3/7/2010 1:51:56 AM   
wandersalone


Posts: 4666
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline 		ok just checking if I have this correct - you are a female switch and your partner is a male?   (only so I get the pronouns correct)

What has he said when you have sat down and had the conversation that goes something like this - I feel frustrated that I am the person who initiates sex/tenderness/kissing/hand holding most of the time.  Is it possible that you would feel comfortable with initiating sex etc with me sometimes?  What would it take for you to feel more comfortable doing this?

Was this person like this in the beginning?

Have you asked them if they need to have kink to be turned on?  If they say yes how will that impact upon your relationship?  Will you be willing to stay if this is the case?

The other more difficult thing is that harboring the resentment about being the person that makes the first move can bleed over into the rest of your lives.  Rather than feeling frustrated about being the person reaching out for him remember why he is your partner, do so without the expectation that he will give something to you in return.  Initiate hand holding because you want to hold his hand , not because you want him to hold your hand.  Bring back some of the little things...give him a kiss hello and goodbye (and not a distracted one, look him in the eyes, kiss him on the lips and say have a lovely day), give him a massage and again don't expect one in return.  If we start being generous with our affection without putting pressure on the other person to return it back to us they sometimes then become more willing to do so....if that makes sense.  If not, there may be deeper issues.

When talking about these things with him remember to mention all of the things you like and love about him, I think it is wonderful that he is someone you actually like as a friend and person - it can be rare to see that.

I really hope things improve for the both of you


_____________________________

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RE: just friends? - 3/7/2010 2:29:09 AM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline
quote:

“I'm stuck in a loop. I'm trapped in a spiral of "I dunno, what do YOU want to do" and I feel like I'm putting out suggestion after suggestion trying to find the one that isn't met with indifference, and accepting minimum effort rather than not do anything ever again.”


<Insert any random stereotypical joke about switches here>

quote:

General low interest with sudden gusts of intense kinky interest followed by seeming total lack of interest.


I could speculate all day. You haven’t given us much to go on. We know how you feel but what does your partner feel, what do they expect from you?


_____________________________

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RE: just friends? - 3/7/2010 3:44:00 AM   
angeldmort


Posts: 54
Joined: 4/19/2009
Status: offline 		"the holding hands is almost a giveaway on this.  i have to really force myself sometimes to make that little gesture of 'need' or 'togetherness' because i feel as if im making a demand - i know it isnt really, i know that i can slip my hand into his and he'll happily hold it."
And sometimes you reach out during casual life, feeling good, looking lovingly into their eyes with that warm smile, put your hand on thiers, trying to slip your fingers into their hand, and not only do they not return it, they don't move a hair or open their hand, so that you can't actually hold anything and your hand just slides around awkwardly for a moment while they continue with whatever they were saying as if they don't even notice you touched them, so that you end up feeling ridiculous and taking your hand back and sticking it in your pocket. It feels like the whole room is watching you make a sweet little couples' gesture and be totally rejected like you're a complete stranger. After a couple of those, you spend the rest of the night with your hands in your lap, a pleasant smile pasted on your face, analyzing every aspect of the relationship, every kiss or lack thereof, every one-armed hug, trying to figure out what the relationship actually is, and what the total lack of response means.
But maybe that's a Scorpio/INFP/EBsurvivor/etc thing.

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RE: just friends? - 3/7/2010 4:33:34 AM   
angeldmort


Posts: 54
Joined: 4/19/2009
Status: offline 		"If we start being generous with our affection without putting pressure on the other person to return it back to us they sometimes then become more willing to do so..."
So what about the people with Entitlement Disease? The ones who lay back, enjoy the affection and attention, and are content to accept? You know... the ones who say "You don't love me anymore. You don't do X like you used to," when you've been drained dry and the emotional bank account is empty - when you cut them off for writing bounced emotional checks and they refuse to make a deposit.
I know, I know. I'm bitter. The joys of divorce and the controlling caregiver flavor of codependence gone bad. Ya spoil a guy, and then damn.... they are spoiled and rotten. Who wants a rotten boy? Ew. How dare they.

"Magenta: I ask for nothing!
Frank: And you shall receive it, IN ABUNDANCE!"
The girls that get whisked away to dream vacations and get expensive gifts are the ones that make it clear they will settle for nothing less. A Domme that never makes a demand will get nothing but do-me subs and end up as just a sevice top. Lovers that never expect return attention will get exactly that - no attention. Best to nip it in the bud so it never gets to the point that you have to correct a problem- expect reciprocation, require equal effort and commitment, and make it clear you deseves nothing less, or you will deserve the less you'll get.
Failing that.... it's hard to correct bad behavior once its in place, and gets harder the longer you wait. A little bruise now is better than an amputation later. My ex was 18 years into the bad behavior, and when I finally woke up and cut him off, he literally almost died. (I DO mean literally - jobless, homeless, suicidal, etc.)
Cruel to be kind. Hell, this IS BDSM! The true sadist tells a masochist asking to be hurt "No!"

< Message edited by angeldmort -- 3/7/2010 4:34:48 AM >

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RE: just friends? - 3/7/2010 5:01:03 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		.what you described in youre first post, angeldmort would cause me to walk too - i just wouldnt stick around for that degree of rejection, no matter what the emotional investment id put in.  same goes for someone who twists my love for them around in order to manipulate a statement of love out of me.  they wouldnt get it.  if love is going to start being used as a weapon to bludgeon me with ill be outta there faster than a ferret down a rabbit hole.  some things are a very hard limit for me and emotional manipulation is a bigee.  im sorry youve had to go through that.

there might be similarities here in this thread that ring bells for you and clearly youre in a position to recognise them more than most after what youve had to go through - its another way of looking at this problem for the OP for sure.

hugs. xx

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to angeldmort)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: just friends? - 3/7/2010 5:32:56 AM   
angeldmort


Posts: 54
Joined: 4/19/2009
Status: offline 		"im sorry youve had to go through that. "
Me too. But again, I went through that because I allowed myself to go through that. I allowed that situation to develop out of my own ignorance, insecurity, fear, etc. If I had called it the first time it happened, and and walked when it was repeated, it would never have progressed as it did. COULD never have progressed as it did. My own weakness made it possible, and my consent, uniformed as it was due to my not educating myself and demanding that I be treated fairly, was a necessary peice of the abuse puzzle. It wasn't until I took responsibility for my own happiness, and chose self-respect over the things I was afraid I'd lose, that I deserved better. If I was willing to be treated that way, then to some degree, I deserved it. After all, my choices created it.
I think if I'd read http://blancheblack.blogspot.com/2007/05/feminism-101-teaching-men-how-to.html years ago, it might have made the last few years very different for me.
The lottery ads say "you can't win if you don't play." It's true. You have to ask for what you want, which means spending the time, doing the hard, often unplesant work to really honestly know youself and know (admit) what you want,  and be willing to give up the comfort of lesser wants. Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs meets The Alladin Principal. Know what you really need, then get it.Try to find ways to meet your needs yourself, without external help, and if you need something from someone else, ASK. Or tell. Or whatever. But you can't get it if you don't try, and you won't get it if you don't require it. You won't get it if you keep trying to get it from someone who can't give it, no matter the reason. You won't get it if you keep trying to get it from someone who has made it clear they won't give it, or really doesn't want to. Play fair, be honest, but only play with others who do the same. I've yet to read anything BDSM related that doesn't emphatically agree with that.

(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: just friends? - 3/7/2010 6:18:27 AM   
lizi


Posts: 4673
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		I had mixed feelings upon reading this post and wish I had something really wise to say. I'll just stick with the thing that jumps out at me the most. I lived in a sexless marriage for a long time. It sucked. Even though year after year added up with us in the same condition I'd have still never left him and in the end he was the one who went.

Now that I'm starting over I'll not accept anything less than a relationship with a full physical component. I don't care how well we get along in any other way if we aren't going to have penetrative sex then I will move on. This may be looked at as being very shallow or it might be viewed as getting what I want. I don't really care. I don't want to live like that again with all of the angst that comes with it. I'm not advocating leaving him, remember I was the one who stayed married for year upon year. I just won't ever get into that situation again now that I have the choice and if I did get into it unknowingly I guess it depends on how much time we had together and how invested I was in the relationship. Maybe the point is for you to figure out how you'll feel if things never change- after all we can't make people change for us. You can work on things together and see if that helps, trying to communicate with him may be all it takes....I don't know.

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RE: just friends? - 3/7/2010 9:53:16 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Has he/she had a check up? Because physical problems can cause low sex drive. Beyond that:

If his/her sex drive was a lot different from yours when you met, then you knew what you were getting into.

You can talk about how this is not a fulfilling relationship for you, and brainstorm ways to solve it, but if they won't even discuss it there isn't much hope for the future.


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RE: just friends? - 3/7/2010 2:49:03 PM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline 		OP-

I struggled as I read your post, trying to figure out the genders and roles- your use of "them" is confusing- are you talking about a man, a woman, a group of people?

But ultimately it doesn't matter. What follows is my interpretation of your thoughts, based on my subjective arrogant opinions filtered though the lens of my own experience.

You are in an artificial relationship; you have no words to describe, or template to follow this "thing" you are in; it is not a marriage, it is not a courtship; you are not dating, you are not lovers.

You are "partners". In some as-yet undefined relationship, which is more intimate than if you shared joint stock interest in a corporation, yet so empty of passion that you are unable to hold hands spontaneously. So intimate that you each put body parts in each other's mouths and cry out in orgasm, yet so detached you quite literally have no word to describe them, this person or persons unknown.

It is painful to even read this.

My only suggestion is that this state of ambiguity, of being undefined "partners" is not helping you. You want to be something defined, something where you know what your role is. It sounds like you want to be in love, to be loved.

But what it sounds like even more, is that you are unable to say this, that you are blocked by this strange and unnatural arrangement from simply reaching out, and taking "their" hand, and smiling, sending a secret "I love you" which is the most basic motion that a billion couples do every day; something so simple, so common, so primal and yet you are barred from it, perversely by the very non-traditional relationship that is sold as being "liberating".

I don't have a clever solution here. I wish you could be loved, that you can have someone in your life that will adore your every hair, will find your every word funny or touching or profound, someone who will in 30 year's time still reach out with a papery wrinkled hand to clasp yours and send a silent message of "I adore you and am glad to have spent my life with you".

Maybe you can stand up and say it, too. Out loud, and pursue it.

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Profile   Post #: 18
RE: just friends? - 3/7/2010 3:09:05 PM   
afkarr


Posts: 328
Joined: 1/13/2010
Status: offline 		OP- Have you tried asking the partner/s how they view the relationship? Perhaps they are holding off being too fleshy and spending more time in other activities becasue they don't want you to think they just love you for your kinky body. Maybe sex simply doesn't have as high a priority for them as it does for you, and they find non fleshy expressions of love just as fulfilling. Maybe they are after a relationship based more on D/s than kinky sex. Until you know the answers to the original questoin- what is their view and ultimate relationship goa- you won't be able to answer any of your other questions.

(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: just friends? - 3/7/2010 4:33:55 PM   
dreamerdreaming


Posts: 2839
Status: offline 		Fast reply:

Sounds like a drop in hormones (maybe combined with other things like medication side effects, or depression) and it also sounds like maybe he's just a closed-off type of person, emotionally and physically. At one time this was enough for you, and now its not. Sounds like your self-esteem improved, and his hasn't.

Am I close? 

My advice: keep on initiating and showing that you do care deeply for him, ask him how YOU can improve those things that you would like to see change, and get him to the doctor for a full physical- to include an eval of his emotional health.

Good luck!

_____________________________

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