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RE: Is the Brain Over Rated? - 2/27/2010 3:27:20 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Which part of hell was created for kindness?

Personally I'm looking forward to having my head twisted around for being a magician. Alternatively being endlessly mutilated sounds fun but I'm going to have to get my skates on and start sowing some serious discord for that to happen in this afterlife resort known as hell.


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RE: Is the Brain Over Rated? - 2/27/2010 3:29:20 PM   
Blackburn


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Personally, I think it is a mistake to try to create associations between science and faith - it is a slippery slope that makes the devout seem fools. I have tremendous respect for faith - even that which is antithetic to my own. Faith is a powerful thing. It is our way to look into our own souls and to see our place in this world. Science is for designing cars, curing cancer, mapping the genome, and digging up dinosaurs. The two things have entirely different functions in the human experience.

The only way to answer your question specifically is to die. All else is idle (but fun) speculation.

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RE: Is the Brain Over Rated? - 2/27/2010 4:07:51 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Although the obvious benefit of science answering the question (which it probably never can) is that people may make the most of their lives, knowing it's a unique experience never to be repeated in the same form ever again.

Also depending on the outcome it would perhaps decrease or increase people doing things to please a god.


< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 2/27/2010 4:09:52 PM >


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RE: Is the Brain Over Rated? - 2/27/2010 4:54:07 PM   
Lorenzo19


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quote:

The only way to answer your question specifically is to die. All else is idle (but fun) speculation.


Personal experience can answer some things.

I think the question can also be answered by the powers of deduction. For example: the existance of the atom was first deduced by the acient greeks. Science later prove thier deduction to be correct (thousands of years later).

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RE: Is the Brain Over Rated? - 2/27/2010 9:07:05 PM   
stella41b


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An interesting thread, thanks Lorenzo..

This is pertinent to me as I'm developing a film subject on this very subject. Without going too much into the film itself I can reveal the key concept behind the film as it's something that personally I have been thinking about, researching and considering for a number of years.

Okay, so let's start by the common assumption that each of us has a soul or spirit within us. Okay, so let's divide it into two and assume that you have one half of a soul which exists in some form inside you through life. When you are born, right from birth, you spend the first few years (several in fact) gathering information on relationships both within you in your physical state and with everyone and everything around you. As a baby you try to put things in your mouth, as a toddler you reach out and touch that hot stove, and the first six or seven years you are gathering information on everything and everyone around you.

Then when you're aged about six or seven things change, you form your Mythos, or inner character, you work out the objective in your life, who you are going to grow up to be, who you are going to become and you also work out how you are going to relate to other people and also to everything in this world, and life. Living is to me nothing more than a preoccupation with relationships - to other people, to material possessions, to the world, your community, with yourself, with abstract concepts, and so on. This is what can be called your Life Script.

This is to me what the essence of existence, that relationship between your soul and the state which forms your environment, whether it be here in the material, physical world, or another state or plane, or which we have no knowledge simply because it lies outside the range of our perception. However that range of perception differs among each of us, some can perceive more, others perceive less and those who can perceive much more we label as psychic. It's important to understand that your reality is shaped by your perception of it more than anything else. That which is material and physical, or concrete, will be perceived similarly by many people, far more similarly than that which isn't material or physical and which is abstract.

The basis of your soul exists within your brain, but it isn't your brain, but your mind, which isn't physical, but is abstract, very much like memory. It is also very much abstract like the electromagnetic impulses and force fields which astrologer Michel Gaucquelin discovered to determine the validity of astrology as a science when he opined that the human central nervous system is just as receptive to these force fields and impulses from the Moon and planets as the sea and animals. However I also believe that we lack the awareness to develop astrology as a science which could serve any meaningful purpose other than what it does now and I'm not talking about drawing up horoscopes.

But what of your soul only being half a soul? Where is the other half? Well how about if that other half of your soul exists somewhere else, like the spiritual world, and is watching over you? What if it has been watching over you ever since the moment when you were born? What if that half of the soul existed within a physical body, as you perceive your soul to exist now, but in your previous incarnation? How about if that other half of your soul is the half that communicates to you through your inner voice which you hear? What if that other half of your soul manifests itself at the time of your death, claiming your half of the soul, so that the soul comes together as one briefly before dividing once again into two where that what you perceive to be your soul now remains in the spiritual world and watches over that other half which is reborn into a physical body?

This of course throws up the question of how much destiny we are subject to, and just how much free will we really have. How can you say that for example the other half of your soul has decided, based on the experiences of its previous life, where you are going to be born, into what family, what parents, and what information you are seeking from your world, life, and everything and everyone within it? Can we actually say that the way we live, and everything we say, think, and do decides karma, and decides the fate and destiny of the other half of our half of this soul in its (our) next life?

You see, what makes me think is when you find a term for this other half of your soul, there watching over you, and that term is for argument's sake God. Does this not provide a logical explanation not only for reincarnation but also for much religious thinking?

You see let's take the central figure of religion, which is Jesus Christ, and let's examine his message. He stated 'there is but one God', hence there is one other half of your soul. He stated much about loving God, God is the Father (which I take to be one who creates life as opposed to a paternal male figure), about loving others as your brothers (for they are the same as you, individuals), that you accept Christ as the saviour (assuming that Christ was the first to have such awareness of two halves of a soul - one of which isn't living and is known as God - which he sought to pass on in his teachings and message) and that when you accept this you will overcome death and enter eternal life in heaven? You see if your soul is just half of a soul then you cannot technically die, and as one half is constantly living this might suggest eternal life.

It's a similar message with all religions, for example in Islam we are led to believe that there is no other than Allah (we simply change the term for the other half of the soul from God to Allah) and we know also that Allah has no face and no identity - we do not know the identity of our previous incarnation. This concept appears to fit most or even all mainstream religious thinking.

It's also worth bearing in mind that Christ taught non-conformity when it comes to morality and spirituality, which would stand to reason for me as we are all individuals, we all have our individual lives, experiences, no two people in this world are ever the same. However mainstream religion, certainly in the institutional sense, advocates conformity when it comes to morality and spirituality, and I feel certainly exploits our fears of death and dying as a form of mind control. However there are those who willingly submit to such mind control. But this raises the question as to whether this is an issue for mainstream religion for advocating conformity, or our own individual issue for not challenging that established order or conformity and seeking to develop our own spirituality and morality in terms of our existence and the way we live.

Something to think about?


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RE: Is the Brain Over Rated? - 2/27/2010 9:52:11 PM   
LadyEllen


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I used to believe, Lorenzo. I spent years researching the subject, drawing from all manner of sources. I'm also one of the few who could tell you the soul and afterlife lore of the Germanic peoples - which despite its apparent complexity and self contradictions according to the Christian model, is actually very simple, whole and integral and makes eminently good sense and far better sense than the notion of one soul.

But I'm sorry. It simply makes no sense whatever to consider there is such a thing as a soul (howsoever described) that survives our bodily death. To believe so is to misunderstand the nature of our conciousness and to practise the twin deceit of believing arrogantly, that we are anything but a collection of physical structures wherein chemical reactions occur and that we have any higher purpose in life than to reproduce and do our utmost to ensure that our offspring do the same.

When the physical structures become damaged past the point of repair, whether by injury, disease or wear and tear, or when the chemical reactions are sufficiently impaired, we die, and with that death the illusions of conciousness and self that have arisen and been perpetuated by those structures and the chemical reactions come to an end. And as we die, it is the structural and chemical failings that lead us to witness the kind of bizarre sensory experiences so often reported of those revived from near death and quoted in support of the existence of a soul and afterlife.

But, is it a good thing that many believe in a soul and an afterlife? Most definitely. Along with other religious ideas and indeed non religious philosophies, such beliefs exercise a civilising influence on mankind, without which those incapable of otherwise governing themselves, having realised their animal nature, might let themselves off the leash in a way very detrimental to society; something indeed we may already be witnessing in our age.

E

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RE: Is the Brain Over Rated? - 2/27/2010 10:04:20 PM   
Lorenzo19


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Ok. I think I get it. I actually read the whole thing, stella41b. Since there is only one diety the diety half would be common to all souls. I dont see how this bit of info would affect My life one way or another.

I'm not sure there is a movie plot there, but if you say so. I hope the movie is real successful.

Glad you like the thread. But, I'm not sure how this thread ties into your movie.



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RE: Is the Brain Over Rated? - 2/27/2010 10:47:43 PM   
Lorenzo19


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quote:

It simply makes no sense whatever to consider there is such a thing as a soul (howsoever described) that survives our bodily death.


The really magic thing is you dont have to believe if you have a soul or not. It is there and it will develop according to your choices you make in life to be a happy soul or miserable soul. Then if there is an after life. You will be in a place consistant with the choices you made in this life because you will take your soul with you, not brain or dna.

souls, afterlife, god, heaven and hell are irrelavent to what kind of person you are or choose to be in this world. The next world, if there is one, will simply be what you have chosen in this world. In this way even one of no faith can develop good souls or bad. Likewise with people of faith.

So, proving wheather or not after life exists is irrevelevent. How you live in this world is relevent. And if the after life happens to exist so shall you in the soul that you developed here in this world.

< Message edited by Lorenzo19 -- 2/27/2010 10:49:49 PM >


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RE: Is the Brain Over Rated? - 2/28/2010 8:04:17 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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When human consciousness is created within a human made device such as a computer programme, then we will have answered the question as far as I'm concerned.

The problem is we've not tried that hard to do this because we are always interested in what computer programmes can do for us as humans and not themselves. Therefore we write them in a way that is to our convenience, even when we are writing them to understand ourselves. Isaac Asimov's laws of robotics are a good example of how we have approached this whole area with limited imagination. Why should a Robot abide to any laws especially law three which goes against survival instinct?

The closest we have got as far as I'm concerned is polymorphic viruses, these things are fascinating because they serve no purpose to us but just exist to reproduce. Somewhere along the line we've over romanced what it means to have a survival instinct. I think the next key stage would be to create something that decided for itself what function it wanted to perform, self determination. What it likes, what it hates etc. We probably like the things we do because such things, when first exposed to them, created a positive feeling within us. These things are the basic building blocks for me, they are to human consciousness as what Hooke's laws are to finite element analysis of structures. Sure human consciousness is complex but it can be broken down into recognisable aspects.


< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 2/28/2010 8:07:08 AM >


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RE: Is the Brain Over Rated? - 2/28/2010 1:19:44 PM   
Lorenzo19


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quote:

When human consciousness is created within a human made device such as a computer programme, then we will have answered the question as far as I'm concerned.


There ae some computer scientists trying to program emotions into computers. Thier reasoning is that emotions are a higher level of inteligence than logic. Thus a more intelligent computer.

quote:

I think the next key stage would be to create something that decided for itself what function it wanted to perform, self determination.


Wow. One step further. Create a machine with self determination BUT initially give it a negitive (evil) disposition then see how many units change to become good. (Now that would be human. The proverbial battle of good and evil.)



< Message edited by Lorenzo19 -- 2/28/2010 1:22:46 PM >


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RE: Is the Brain Over Rated? - 3/1/2010 10:56:25 PM   
Lorenzo19


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quote:

Which part of hell was created for kindness?


The whole thing. Think about it.

People who choose misery in this life will choose it in the next. Why would they suddenly change thier prioities simply because thier dead. They could have chosen to be happy in this world if it were important to them.

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RE: Is the Brain Over Rated? - 3/2/2010 9:04:03 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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Nobody can choose to be happy, I don't think.

How can you chose which emotion you feel? You either experience the randomness of emotional variation or you choose not to feel anything at all.

You can't look at a fireworks display and decide how it makes you feel, the experience needs context to give it meaning. You could be really suffering from the worst luck of life and put a brave face on it all, choosing to not wollow in it but that isn't really a choice; it's instinctively the way you always approach such things based on your coping mechanism which has been built up over your lifetime.


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RE: Is the Brain Over Rated? - 3/2/2010 9:22:13 AM   
Lockit


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I believe that people must have explanations and answers for everything so that they can make sense of things. One may believe this and the other that and their belief is just as real to them as anyone else belief, but which would be truth? There have been many studies done on the benefit's of a belief system and it didn't matter which belief system they had, they all had similar enhancements to their life.

I cannot believe in one truth and I have tried. What I can believe is... live today, the one life you surely have as if it were the only one and don't waste it and yet also live it as if it may not be the only one, live without fear and don't count on anything but what you have right here and in this moment. In other words, live life, be a good person, learn, grow, be curious and not lazy and love all you can. That way you don't waste what you have and are prepared in case there is more. lol

As for picking the life you now have for some lesson... lol... my god(!) how we justify the ugly in life and mankind so that we can somehow digest it? How cruel to think that one has a higher something or other, better choices and was a better person in a past life so that they can live better... what judgment, justification and pride!

I believe people can be better than that! I could never say to a victim of some horrific thing in life, that they fucking chose that for the lessons in it! Yeah, many never get over those lessons in life and are broken by them and no one has ever explained the real lesson they actually got from it! Then they get to pay in the next life because they didn't learn much from the lessons in the past life? Oh give me a break!

I've counseled a lot of people over some horrific and I mean horrific things. I'm tempted to dare anyone who believes that they went through it for the lesson in life, to look them in the eye and tell them that, but then that would be another cruelty to that person.

< Message edited by Lockit -- 3/2/2010 9:27:28 AM >


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RE: Is the Brain Over Rated? - 3/2/2010 11:11:39 AM   
Lorenzo19


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quote:

Nobody can choose to be happy, I don't think.

How can you chose which emotion you feel? You either experience the randomness of emotional variation or you choose not to feel anything at all.


Totally agree with the second part. Totally disagree with the first part. Here is My rationale: We cant choose how to feel about something. But we can choose what to think about.

For example: A person is over-weight. Very over weight. So that person has a chioce of what to think.

1) I'm a pig. Nobody wants to see Me naked. My clothes dont fit. I am ugly. I am useless. My clothes rip when I bend over. Anything that fits makes me looks fatter of like a tent. I cant fly cause Im to fat. Nobody wants to be my friend because my looks are repulsive. Cant they look past the fat and see what a nice person I am? The bastards want me to pay for two seats on the plane cause they hate fat people. I want to eat more to make me feel better. I am a disgraceful human nothingness. I want to die.

2) I'm too fat. I'm tired of being too fat. I want to be lose weight. I am going to lose weight. I want to lose weight because I care about my health and appearance. I will busy my mind with losing weight and becoming what I want to be. I will overcome this obstacle, this challenge. I will become better because of it. I will not be defeated. It is possible.

The happy person uses his misery to motivate himself to become more happy. The unhappy person uses his misery to create even more misery, more self pity, more hatred of themselves and others. Does that make sense?
(edited spelling)

< Message edited by Lorenzo19 -- 3/2/2010 11:28:32 AM >


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RE: Is the Brain Over Rated? - 3/2/2010 11:26:42 AM   
Lorenzo19


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quote:

I've counseled a lot of people over some horrific and I mean horrific things. I'm tempted to dare anyone who believes that they went through it for the lesson in life, to look them in the eye and tell them that, but then that would be another cruelty to that person.


I agree. That would be tantamount to saying youre so stupid that you this had to happen to you to get you to learn something.

I do think that for every thing that has happened to Me in My life big or small, there is something I can learn from it. The misery happened for whatever reason and cant be undone. Now how am I going to deal with it? How can I use this misery to improve My spirit?

It is a matter of tact. The tact to take depends on whether the person caused thier own misery or someone or something did it to them through no fault of thier own.

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