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Obedience Vs Loyalty - 1/23/2010 1:35:35 PM   
MasterLark


Posts: 249
Joined: 5/12/2005
Status: offline 		So I am curious.

Do you make a distinction between your understanding of the word "obedience" versus the word "loyalty"?

Are they inter-changeable for each other?

Is one a sub-set of the other? Why so?

Many posts say the Master/Dom/Domme expects loyalty and obedience from their sub/slave...as if the words mean something different. Do they? What?
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty - 1/23/2010 1:40:50 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline 		I am loyal to my husband all the time, but I am only occasionally obedient.

For me, loyalty is standing by that person, supporting him through good and bad, being willing to stand up for them as quick as you'd stand up for yourself.

Obedience is following a command or request. A waitress is generally obedient to her customers, that doesn't mean she has any loyalty to them, especially if she trash talks them when they're out of earshot.

(in reply to MasterLark)
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RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty - 1/23/2010 1:42:10 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I am loyal to my husband all the time, but I am only occasionally obedient.

For me, loyalty is standing by that person, supporting him through good and bad, being willing to stand up for them as quick as you'd stand up for yourself.

Obedience is following a command or request. A waitress is generally obedient to her customers, that doesn't mean she has any loyalty to them, especially if she trash talks them when they're out of earshot.


Couldn't have explained it better myself.

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Elisabella)
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RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty - 1/23/2010 1:44:13 PM   
Dominasola


Posts: 582
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

For me, loyalty is standing by that person, supporting him through good and bad, being willing to stand up for them as quick as you'd stand up for yourself.

Obedience is following a command or request. A waitress is generally obedient to her customers, that doesn't mean she has any loyalty to them, especially if she trash talks them when they're out of earshot.


I agree with this. I see loyalty as being somewhat of a passive trait, while obedience is much more active.

If you think about it grammatically:

"To be loyal" vs "To obey"

Loyalty is a state of being. Obedience denotes action.

_____________________________

I have made a ceaseless effort not to ridicule, not to bewail, not to scorn human actions, but to understand them.

—Baruch Spinoza

The measure of a man is what he does with power.

—Pittacus

(in reply to Elisabella)
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RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty - 1/23/2010 1:48:01 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

"To be loyal" vs "To obey"

Loyalty is a state of being. Obedience denotes action.


Oh I like this.

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Dominasola)
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RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty - 1/23/2010 1:53:02 PM   
peppermint


Posts: 5175
Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
Status: offline
quote:

Loyalty is a state of being. Obedience denotes action.


Such an easy and simple way to explain.  I love it!!

(in reply to Dominasola)
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RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty - 1/23/2010 2:05:38 PM   
CaringandReal


Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline 		In a bdsm relationship the two are interconnected, in that obedience seems to be dependent upon loyalty. I ddn't obey my former master because I would lose my job or at very least not get tips if I didn't. I obeyed because I felt loyalty to him, and that loyalty inspired and motivated obedience. If loyalty were missing, no matter how dominant and compelling someone was, I honestly don't know if I could or would obey them. There's more to this mix, obviously, but I'm trying to stick to the two traits you mentioned.

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(in reply to peppermint)
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RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty - 1/23/2010 2:10:40 PM   
antipode


Posts: 1787
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

.as if the words mean something different.


They do. Check a dictionary, or Wikipedia. Are you implying a different meaning in BDSM? There isn't one, these are standard concepts. The words have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

(in reply to MasterLark)
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RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty - 1/23/2010 3:27:52 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterLark

So I am curious.

Do you make a distinction between your understanding of the word "obedience" versus the word "loyalty"?

Yes I do, on account of them being different words with different meanings.
quote:


Are they inter-changeable for each other?

Oh yes, you can interchange them - the way you can interchange "tea" and "hippo", but having done so you will have profoundly changed the meaning of the sentence.

quote:


Is one a sub-set of the other? Why so?

Nope.
quote:


Many posts say the Master/Dom/Domme expects loyalty and obedience from their sub/slave...as if the words mean something different. Do they? What?


I reckon they're using both words because they really, really do mean different things!

As for what = see dictionary.com -
loy⋅al⋅ty  [loi-uhl-tee]–noun, plural -ties.
1. the state or quality of being loyal; faithfulness to commitments or obligations.
2. faithful adherence to a sovereign, government, leader, cause, etc.
3. an example or instance of faithfulness, adherence, or the like: a man with fierce loyalties.

o⋅be⋅di⋅ence [oh-bee-dee-uhns] –noun
1. the state or quality of being obedient.
2. the act or practice of obeying; dutiful or submissive compliance: Military service demands obedience from its members.
3. a sphere of authority or jurisdiction, esp. ecclesiastical.
4. Chiefly Ecclesiastical. a. conformity to a monastic rule or the authority of a religious superior, esp. on the part of one who has vowed such conformance. b. the rule or authority that exacts such conformance.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I am loyal to my husband all the time, but I am only occasionally obedient.

For me, loyalty is standing by that person, supporting him through good and bad, being willing to stand up for them as quick as you'd stand up for yourself.

Obedience is following a command or request. A waitress is generally obedient to her customers, that doesn't mean she has any loyalty to them, especially if she trash talks them when they're out of earshot.


I  think this is a superb way to distinguish the two.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dominasola

I agree with this. I see loyalty as being somewhat of a passive trait, while obedience is much more active.

If you think about it grammatically:

"To be loyal" vs "To obey"

Loyalty is a state of being. Obedience denotes action.


Spot on on the active vs passive, but  there's grammar cheatin in your example - The fair grammatical comparison is "To be loyal" vs "to be obedient" - the key point is that while there is a verb associated with obedient (to obey) there is none with Loyalty

;-)

[Edited for typos - at least the ones I spotted ;-) ]


< Message edited by crazyml -- 1/23/2010 3:31:33 PM >

(in reply to MasterLark)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty - 1/23/2010 3:41:16 PM   
Dominasola


Posts: 582
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Spot on on the active vs passive, but  there's grammar cheatin in your example - The fair grammatical comparison is "To be loyal" vs "to be obedient" - the key point is that while there is a verb associated with obedient (to obey) there is none with Loyalty

;-)

[Edited for typos - at least the ones I spotted ;-) ]



Thanks for pointing that out. I didn't even think about that!

_____________________________

I have made a ceaseless effort not to ridicule, not to bewail, not to scorn human actions, but to understand them.

—Baruch Spinoza

The measure of a man is what he does with power.

—Pittacus

(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty - 1/23/2010 3:51:02 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dominasola


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Spot on on the active vs passive, but  there's grammar cheatin in your example - The fair grammatical comparison is "To be loyal" vs "to be obedient" - the key point is that while there is a verb associated with obedient (to obey) there is none with Loyalty

;-)

[Edited for typos - at least the ones I spotted ;-) ]



Thanks for pointing that out. I didn't even think about that!


To be fair I wouldn't have come up with the "no verb for loyalty" thing if it weren't for your observation!

(in reply to Dominasola)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty - 1/23/2010 4:01:02 PM   
itsmeinLV


Posts: 207
Joined: 12/23/2009
Status: offline 		Yes, they do mean different things.  Webster and Oxford dictionaries will back me up on this. 

I can be loyal to someone without having to be obedient.  Or vice versa, depending on the situation.  I think the two words do co-exist in a BDSM relationship though.

(in reply to MasterLark)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty - 1/23/2010 4:05:15 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline 		Can you be loyal and disobey? - Not in my world.
Can you obey and be disloyal? – Yes.

I believe the two words are comparable as both by definition are a “state of being”.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/loyalty
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/obedience

Do you make a distinction between your understanding of the word "obedience" versus the word "loyalty"?
Yes. Many slaves or prisoners will obey but are not loyal to those they obey.

Are they inter-changeable for each other?
No.

Is one a sub-set of the other? Why so?
Yes, but only obedience is expected with loyalty but not the other way around.

Many posts say the Master/Dom/Domme expects loyalty and obedience from their sub/slave...as if the words mean something different. Do they? What?
Yes, each means something different.

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to MasterLark)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty - 1/23/2010 4:11:15 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

Can you be loyal and disobey? - Not in my world.


I'm trying to figure out if this means that you have no loyalty to a submissive, or if your submissive can expect her desires to be obeyed.

(in reply to ResidentSadist)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty - 1/23/2010 4:33:32 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

Can you be loyal and disobey? - Not in my world.


Out of loyalty to you, your sub might disobey your command to let you take  the rap for her speeding ticket.

(in reply to ResidentSadist)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty - 1/23/2010 8:18:40 PM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		For me, personally, being obedient is a subset of being loyal.  Loyalty also encompasses many other things like watching out for his best interests, keeping certain things private, never allowing my heart to become divided, etc.  I would not feel loyal if I was not obedient but one could definitely be obedient to every command and yet still have room to do many disloyal things.

(in reply to crazyml)
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RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty - 1/24/2010 8:06:32 AM   
MasterLark


Posts: 249
Joined: 5/12/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you all for your responses.

And yes, I did sort through several dictionaries and other sources before I posted my questions. But getting others perspective on this has been good to hear.

My own view is that obedience is essential to me, but loyalty is even more important. I do not see obedience in a vacuum, for obedience without loyalty has no meaning to me. I do not want a mindless robot slave. I do not want her to leave her brain at the door. So I see obedience as an active extension of her growing loyalty to me.

Yes, in my context, she might disobey from time to time, and learn to obey better as time passes but her intentional disloyalty most likely severs our connection and trust. In my view, loyalty must include obedience, but I do not need perfect obedience. I do need complete loyalty, not absolute loyalty nor blind obedience; complete loyalty accepts forgiveness in certain rare circumstances. I am not perfect and I do not expect her to be perfect. I expect myself to be loyal to her, in protecting and caring, and taking her, and I require her service and surrender to be not just obedient but loyal to me. Disobedience has its limits when it is a pattern and repetitive, but if she actively learns to obey, that reflects a loyalty I cherish.


(in reply to chamberqueen)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty - 1/24/2010 8:08:33 AM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		I am a very loyal person, I don't necessarily consider myself obedient.

(in reply to MasterLark)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty - 1/24/2010 8:10:27 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I'm loyal to my kids, but not obedient to them. They're loyal to me, but not that obedient either, lol.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to sexyred1)
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RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty - 1/24/2010 8:36:48 AM   
Rochsub2009


Posts: 2536
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterLark

Do you make a distinction between your understanding of the word "obedience" versus the word "loyalty"?

Are they inter-changeable for each other?



Nope, two totally different concepts. 

You can be obedient, but be disloyal.  For example, if i obey all of my Domme's commands, but have a profile on CM in which i am actively allowing myself to be pursued by other Dommes, then i have been disloyal.  If my Domme didn't specifically instruct me to remove my profile, or to not talk to other Dommes, then i am not being disobedient, just disloyal.

Contrarily, if i were serving a Domme who was a recovering alcoholic, and i saw her sneaking drinks and decided to secretly inform her AA sponsor despite the fact that she had instructed me not to do so, then i would view that act to be loyal, but disobedient.

(in reply to MasterLark)
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