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electric cars & the deepfreeze - 1/9/2010 9:06:27 AM

LadyEllen

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This is a question that came to me owing to the current unusually cold weather we're experiencing in the UK. Maybe someone who knows might be able to comment?

It occurred to me that when I go out to start my petrol car in this weather, it can generate enough power to defrost my windscreen and rear screen and drive fans and warm the interior, and light the headlamps, power a radio and keep my cellphone charged, and still go 0-60 in about 8 seconds (ice permitting) and travel approx 500 miles on one tank of fuel doing all of this.

Can an electric car do the same? If it cant, then how on Earth do we expect to be able to cope with such vehicles?

E

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RE: electric cars & the deepfreeze - 1/9/2010 9:09:13 AM

frazzle

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I think its called the "power" of prayer.

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RE: electric cars & the deepfreeze - 1/9/2010 9:11:04 AM

Moonhead

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They wouldn't legally be able to put the things on the roads if they can't power the headlights and defrost the windscreens. No idea about the rest, though.

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RE: electric cars & the deepfreeze - 1/9/2010 9:14:31 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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Also electric cars generally have more instantaneous torque which means hard to pull away in icy conditions, we all understand the low gearing rules. I assume these cars must have heaters and I don’t know about you but I find most of the snow/ice I have to clean off manually even if the engine is running and the heating on. I have one of those heated front windscreens so I generally start with the side windows first, the mirrors and the lights. When that is all done the windscreen and tailgate ice is usually soft enough to wipe off.

The bigger question I suppose is why do idiots think they'll be able to control any car going up or down a steep icy hill?

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RE: electric cars & the deepfreeze - 1/9/2010 9:22:03 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
The bigger question I suppose is why do idiots think they'll be able to control any car going up or down a steep icy hill?

Because they're idiots.

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RE: electric cars & the deepfreeze - 1/9/2010 9:46:28 AM

Musicmystery

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Well, the rear window defroster is electric.

'Course, it has visible wires running through it, but that could be fixed given a need.

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RE: electric cars & the deepfreeze - 1/9/2010 9:57:21 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
The bigger question I suppose is why do idiots think they'll be able to control any car going up or down a steep icy hill?

Because they're idiots.

Yeah, you make a good point

I think a couple of years back I was going down this hill relatively slowly and my car started to slide down it sideways so it made no difference what way I turned the steering wheel which was a bit disconcerting.

I kid you not I ended up about five millimetres shy of a parked car!

I was watching the news the other days and these news people had set up a camera to film people slipping over on an ice patch. I mean what are the chances they just happened to be filming the average high street when someone slipped over? So they'd obviously watched this initial person slip over and then not thought to warn others or break up the ice but instead set up a camera there to highlight the perilous nature of the weather.

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RE: electric cars & the deepfreeze - 1/9/2010 9:58:33 AM

Musicmystery

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Two words....

Snow tires.

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RE: electric cars & the deepfreeze - 1/9/2010 10:12:50 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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Yeah but for a couple of days a year?

You could get snow chains also but chances are they'd be treacherous along some aspects of the journey as ice or snow isn't always 100% coverage. This is the argument our government uses for the lack of gritters, the risk assessment doesn’t call for it.

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RE: electric cars & the deepfreeze - 1/9/2010 10:22:28 AM

Musicmystery

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When the weather is not suitable for driving...

Don't drive.

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RE: electric cars & the deepfreeze - 1/9/2010 10:44:11 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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Well sometimes you have to weigh up the risks for once in a lifetime events you must attend.

If you have a public meeting you must attend, if your boss says no snow pay etc.

Ideally yes, we should stay at home but realistically we can't always.

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RE: electric cars & the deepfreeze - 1/9/2010 10:51:34 AM

Musicmystery

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The point is, you're asking for innovations that already exist.

If you don't use them, sure, you take risk.

I'm quite used to snow, to driving in it, etc. Not in all conditions. Icy white-out, and the boss can go to hell.

Dead trumps unemployment.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/9/2010 11:02:45 AM >

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RE: electric cars & the deepfreeze - 1/9/2010 11:01:33 AM

TheHeretic

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Something to remember here, LadyE (assuming nobody minds me getting off the winter-driving hijack) is that in a typical internal combustion powered car, heat is a freebie. You need electricity to power the fans and rear defroster, but the warmth comes from normal operation of the engine. Once the car is warmed up, you can switch off the fans and stay warm with no affect on mileage whatsoever. An electric has no such byproduct, and must use even more battery juice to generate heat, and do it continuously. That seems certain to have an impact on range.

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RE: electric cars & the deepfreeze - 1/9/2010 11:39:03 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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Except when you harness breaking energy and forward momentum.

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RE: electric cars & the deepfreeze - 1/9/2010 11:45:02 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
I'm quite used to snow, to driving in it, etc. Not in all conditions. Icy white-out, and the boss can go to hell.

Dead trumps unemployment.

Some people have no sense of adventure.

So if you had an elderly relative cut off, would you not travel to them to see they arn't telling you porkies about how they can cope?

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RE: electric cars & the deepfreeze - 1/9/2010 11:49:40 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Something to remember here, LadyE (assuming nobody minds me getting off the winter-driving hijack) is that in a typical internal combustion powered car, heat is a freebie. You need electricity to power the fans and rear defroster, but the warmth comes from normal operation of the engine. Once the car is warmed up, you can switch off the fans and stay warm with no affect on mileage whatsoever. An electric has no such byproduct, and must use even more battery juice to generate heat, and do it continuously. That seems certain to have an impact on range.

That's why I don't understand how they could ever be practical anywhere in the northern half to two thirds of the US, or anywhere at all in Canada. It's -6 here in the Twin Cities today. It would take an enormous amount of electricity to heat the inside of a car at that temperature. In a couple of weeks, I'm taking a hiking trip up in Northern Minnesota. It's about 250 miles, maybe a 5 hour drive, and the temperature will probably be anywhere from -30 to maybe 0 the whole way. I can't even imagine the size of the battery pack that would be required to operate and warm a vehicle for that long of a trip in this climate. There wouldn't be any room in the car for anything but me and the battery!

As long as I'm living in this area, I'll never own an electric car. I doubt many other people here will ever buy one either. Hydrogen-fueled cars, or even hybrids, may be an option, but a straight-up electric car would never be more than a novelty market north of the 35th parallel.

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RE: electric cars & the deepfreeze - 1/9/2010 12:05:51 PM

SL4V3M4YB3

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Electric motors generate heat as well once they get going, it just really depends on how much of the heat you as a human being need for comfort. Even in the cold probably 87% of the heat produced by a conventional engine is wasted because it would be above your comfort level of around 21 degrees C.

Let us do some math(s):

Say in the conventional engine the temperature can be around 160 degrees C and a diesel up to 315 degrees C:

which means (21/160)*100 = 13% of heat produced by conventional engine is enough to make you comfortable
or (21/315)*100 = 7% of heat produced by diesel engine is enough to make you comfortable

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RE: electric cars & the deepfreeze - 1/9/2010 12:20:00 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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Sure, but the heat from an internal combustion engine is all free heat. It's just a byproduct. With an electric motor, on the other hand, you need to use some of your "fuel" to warm the car. A lot of it, in weather like this. That's going to cost you a lot of range or performance, if not both.

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RE: electric cars & the deepfreeze - 1/9/2010 12:38:21 PM

SL4V3M4YB3

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No, heat is produced as the by-product of running an electric motor too, not sure how that heat is currently utilised but it could be. There is not a mechanical device so efficient that it doesn't produce heat as a by-product.

A petrol engine has a fuel source just like an electric one has a fuel source, what is the difference? The difference is one engine produces so much heat that it needs to be artificially cooled with fans. Whilst you are running your engine to warm up your car you are still using fuel, are you using more or less fuel than a battery powering a heated coil of wire with a fan? Debatable. If you look at the total use of energy then with the electric car more is directed to things you need it for.

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RE: electric cars & the deepfreeze - 1/9/2010 1:17:16 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

No, heat is produced as the by-product of running an electric motor too, not sure how that heat is currently utilised but it could be. There is not a mechanical device so efficient that it doesn't produce heat as a by-product.

A petrol engine has a fuel source just like an electric one has a fuel source, what is the difference? The difference is one engine produces so much heat that it needs to be artificially cooled with fans. Whilst you are running your engine to warm up your car you are still using fuel, are you using more or less fuel than a battery powering a heated coil of wire with a fan? Debatable. If you look at the total use of energy then with the electric car more is directed to things you need it for.

It's more about the fuel/energy load each is capable of carrying under reasonable circumstances than individual efficiencies, SL4. Now if we wanted to even out the comparison a bit, we should be discussing air conditioning, which doesn't come as a freebie in either. Air conditioning just isn't much on people's mind's in this weather, though.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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