RE: Stockholm to Lima

RE: Stockholm to Lima (Full Version)

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lovingpet -> RE: Stockholm to Lima (12/7/2009 6:48:11 PM)
When I posted this, I had a lot more wherewithall to try to navigate the subject matter. Please everyone accept my apologies for not being the most gracious OP. I really am doing my best here. I did not accuse anyone of playing semantic games, but the reality is almost this entire thread so far has been chipping away at this term or expression or that one. I don't think it is really necessary. The minute details really aren't at the heart of this discussion. I even stated that some people do not and, in some cases, cannot discuss SS and IE in the same line of thinking due to the consent issue. I can appreciate that this is the particular camp you fall in and the reasons you have given me for how you think. I get the sense that folks view equating the two with saying IE is negative. I couldn't believe anything further from that. I really seem stuck inside my own head here and can't express what I am trying to say, so I think I will pack in trying for the evening. I'm frustrated at me, not at those of you who have posted. I truly am sorry. lovingpet

Malkinius -> RE: Stockholm to Lima (12/7/2009 11:31:09 PM)
Greetings CaringandReal.... quote: ORIGINAL: CaringandReal While I can't offer my opinion, as I don't know enough about the details of these syndromes to have one, I can repeat what i've heard the other posters saying to you. Some people are saying that (a) in order for something to actually be SS or even close to SS, certain envrionmental conditions have to be met and (b) these specific, key environmental conditions rarely occur in bdsm relationships, internal enslavement or otherwise. Again, I don't know enough about this subject to know what is factual about it and what isn't, but it seems like an interesting line of thought to research. What you find will either confirm your own views or confirm theirs. A little snippage here to get to the main point. Sorry, but the things which are/can be used to cause SS are very common in BDSM, especially in IE/PE/TPT relationships. They are also common among spousal abuse situations. I think many domestic abuse situations are SS to some extent, they just don't get listed as that because there is another more accessible term for it. Some of us have already researched this area. Be well.... Malkinius

Malkinius -> RE: Stockholm to Lima (12/7/2009 11:35:02 PM)
Greetings lovingpet.... I realized that I did not answer the Lima Syndrome (LS) like I meant to. I think it does happen to some extent in any power transfer relationship unless one of the parties is a sociopath. The closer you get to them the more you identify with them and when they are happy, that happiness transfers to you. The effect I mentioned does go both ways and both sexes even tho it is stronger in the female. It was identified there first as well with its hormonal component. Be well.... Malkinius

RCdc -> RE: Stockholm to Lima (12/7/2009 11:44:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CaringandReal quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark But then, I don't believe in the fallacy of 'consent' either. the.dark. Do you mean that consenting doesn't work or that the idea that someone consents is a fallacious one? Or something else? I don't want to hijack the OP because I have discussed this lots of times on other threads, but yes to the fallaciousness. the.dark.

RCdc -> RE: Stockholm to Lima (12/7/2009 11:56:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovingpet When I posted this, I had a lot more wherewithall to try to navigate the subject matter. Please everyone accept my apologies for not being the most gracious OP. I really am doing my best here. I did not accuse anyone of playing semantic games, but the reality is almost this entire thread so far has been chipping away at this term or expression or that one. I don't think it is really necessary. The minute details really aren't at the heart of this discussion. I even stated that some people do not and, in some cases, cannot discuss SS and IE in the same line of thinking due to the consent issue. I can appreciate that this is the particular camp you fall in and the reasons you have given me for how you think. Maybe it's just because people disagree with the details though LP and for some people they are important. For me, I am just having a difficult time seeing and interpreting what you are suggesting. Being a person whom is enslaved and who is in a relationship where actual punishment(rather than play) is an unacceptable medium, I wanted to see where you stand - whether you believed the words or were just relaying what you have seen written. quote: I get the sense that folks view equating the two with saying IE is negative. I couldn't believe anything further from that. I really seem stuck inside my own head here and can't express what I am trying to say, so I think I will pack in trying for the evening. I'm frustrated at me, not at those of you who have posted. I truly am sorry. lovingpet I don't view that you are saying IE is negative, but I do feel that the equasion doesn't allow for individual relationships and has a danger of walking the truism route. Try some mulled wine for the frustration... it's seasonal and the spices can be calming and help, along with a little meditation, with clearing the head.[:)] the.dark.

ranja -> RE: Stockholm to Lima (12/8/2009 2:43:04 AM)
(thank you the.dark... blush) i read Arjan Erkel's book Ontvoerd (Kidnapped) a while back... it's Dutch, maybe there is an English translation? He was with a Doctors without borders organisation and got taken hostage (for money) in Russian Dagestan... he was held captive at different addresses (one of which was a cell in the ground) for 607 days... until the money finally got paid... He was smart enough to understand his captors reasons and that he was totally dependent on them and he managed to make his guards sort of like and respect him and they in turn were human enough to actually indeed like and respect him somewhat... obviously the top boss could have ordered him killed at any time and they would have followed orders and Arjan knew that... so much for Stockholm and Lima. It was a very interesting book but obviously i knew before i even started reading that Arjan had survived his ordeal... which took away a lot of the tension at scary moments he described... which was a pity On the whole i think people know not to trust the enemy... but it is always a good idea to keep the enemy calm by pretending that you do trust them and convince them that you are trustworthy yourself... and then there are the extremely rare miracles of people from totally different camps who take extraordinary risks and sometimes give their life for a person of the opposition because it is the honourable thing to do... And i think internal enslavement is a romantic notion... like tpe (eta i like romantic notions)

CaringandReal -> RE: Stockholm to Lima (12/8/2009 5:47:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Malkinius Greetings CaringandReal.... quote: ORIGINAL: CaringandReal While I can't offer my opinion, as I don't know enough about the details of these syndromes to have one, I can repeat what i've heard the other posters saying to you. Some people are saying that (a) in order for something to actually be SS or even close to SS, certain envrionmental conditions have to be met and (b) these specific, key environmental conditions rarely occur in bdsm relationships, internal enslavement or otherwise. Again, I don't know enough about this subject to know what is factual about it and what isn't, but it seems like an interesting line of thought to research. What you find will either confirm your own views or confirm theirs. A little snippage here to get to the main point. Sorry, but the things which are/can be used to cause SS are very common in BDSM, especially in IE/PE/TPT relationships. They are also common among spousal abuse situations. I think many domestic abuse situations are SS to some extent, they just don't get listed as that because there is another more accessible term for it. Some of us have already researched this area. Be well.... Malkinius But are the "things which are/can be used to cause SS" actually abuse? And is abuse an essential ingredient required for SS? The second statement is what I hear other posters saying. I agree with you about domestic abuse situations. And of course abuse can be a part of bad bdsm relationships (ones in which one partner is not fulfilled or essentially satisfied in some way). But I think LovingPet is talking about either consensual relationships (or ones that start out that way) and also possibly bdsm relationships, whatever their consensuality status, that are "positive" in some manner for both partners. Are you saying that abuse, which I define as something someone truly at their core hates, so much that they would try to escape from it permanently if they could, is not an essential ingredient to producing SS?

CaringandReal -> RE: Stockholm to Lima (12/8/2009 5:56:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark I don't want to hijack the OP because I have discussed this lots of times on other threads, but yes to the fallaciousness. the.dark. Well, to me it's not a hijack if consent is one of the conditions necessary for SS to exist. That's what I'm trying to tie down at this moment--while intentionally not doing any outside reading on the subject. (BTW, I haven't seen any of those other threads. If I had I doubt I would have asked the question!) Of course, I'll do the reading later, I'm too curious not to, but for right now I'm much more interested in what others' opinions are about SS and what factors must be present to cause it. That may sound weird, but I often find what other people think about something--subjective non-expert opinion, in other words--to be far more interesting (and sometimes enlightening) than what that something actually is or actually is not.

aldompdx -> RE: Stockholm to Lima (12/8/2009 7:50:01 AM)
Excellent issues! I suggest that the essential issue is truth and honesty, rather than illusory fantasy that may lead to re-defining language. When one is completely self-honest about their feelings and preferences, they need not borrow and redefine terms. When one is engaged in pretend fantasy, a term is too often borrowed, redefined, and applied in order to give a more realistic intensity to what is nonetheless an unreal (or very temporary) role. SSC, RACK, and SSICK (safe sane informed consensual kink) each preclude "consent" by brainwashing, cult indroctination, or Stockholm syndrome, since one loses the capacity to make an objectively informed/sane choice to consent. Re-labeling it as "internal enslavement" does not diminish the actual lack of true ongoing consent from free choice and self will. One ultimate question I hear you pose is whether dependency ("falling in love -- in Lima") is consistent with consent. Using English spoken on planet "nilla" Earth, I contend that the answer is a resounding NO. A controller who applyies a process of self-honesty and self-mastery, will demonstrate humbleness and empathy from the first day, and will be able to share deep intimacy within the polarized dynamic. You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Neither partner to a relationship should have the expectation of imposing personal growth upon the other. Instead when wisdom or love is shared, the other may consensually choose to travel down that path.

RCdc -> RE: Stockholm to Lima (12/8/2009 8:13:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CaringandReal Well, to me it's not a hijack if consent is one of the conditions necessary for SS to exist. That's what I'm trying to tie down at this moment--while intentionally not doing any outside reading on the subject. (BTW, I havn't seen any of those other threads. If I had I doubt I would have asked the question!) I just know how people tend to take my opinion on this issue and how it takes over thread and I didn't want to stress LP more than she is frustrated with already in the thread. I'd be happy to message you about it, or even participate on a thread if you want to start one. quote: Of course, I'll do the reading later, I'm too curious not to, but for right now I'm much more interested in what others' opinions are about SS and what factors must be present to cause it. That may sound weird, but I often find what other people think about something--subjective non-expert opinion, in other words--to be far more interesting (and sometimes enlightening) than what that something actually is or actually is not. I have to say, I identify more with the assertion that Malkinius made about SS and spousal abuse situations, than SS and IE. I am pretty sure that(from what I know of, but I may be incorrect) with SS there is a more systematic break down of a person that just doesn't exist in all IE relationships. Of course there is going to be a percentage of IE relationships that aspire to breaking a person to mold them, but I am just not a fan of all encompassing, sweeping statements. I don't know if abuse has to be there for SS - I do believe that empathy does. the.dark.

lovingpet -> RE: Stockholm to Lima (12/8/2009 10:26:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: ORIGINAL: lovingpet When I posted this, I had a lot more wherewithall to try to navigate the subject matter. Please everyone accept my apologies for not being the most gracious OP. I really am doing my best here. I did not accuse anyone of playing semantic games, but the reality is almost this entire thread so far has been chipping away at this term or expression or that one. I don't think it is really necessary. The minute details really aren't at the heart of this discussion. I even stated that some people do not and, in some cases, cannot discuss SS and IE in the same line of thinking due to the consent issue. I can appreciate that this is the particular camp you fall in and the reasons you have given me for how you think. Maybe it's just because people disagree with the details though LP and for some people they are important. For me, I am just having a difficult time seeing and interpreting what you are suggesting. Being a person whom is enslaved and who is in a relationship where actual punishment(rather than play) is an unacceptable medium, I wanted to see where you stand - whether you believed the words or were just relaying what you have seen written. quote: I get the sense that folks view equating the two with saying IE is negative. I couldn't believe anything further from that. I really seem stuck inside my own head here and can't express what I am trying to say, so I think I will pack in trying for the evening. I'm frustrated at me, not at those of you who have posted. I truly am sorry. lovingpet I don't view that you are saying IE is negative, but I do feel that the equasion doesn't allow for individual relationships and has a danger of walking the truism route. Try some mulled wine for the frustration... it's seasonal and the spices can be calming and help, along with a little meditation, with clearing the head.[:)] the.dark. I think I have a little more of a handle this afternoon. If what you are getting at is that punishment dynamics do not exist in all relationships, I would agree...to an extent. Formal dynamics may not exist, but as social creatures, we are impacted by how our partner responds to us. I don't know about anyone else, but I know I do not like to see disappointment or anger (though I've never seen anger as yet) on my partner's face that I had put there. I don't take any kind of pleasure at examining "where things are going wrong and if we can continue together". I have never been punished, though it is a possibility in a very narrow set of circumstances, but I have experienced a few things of this sort. It hasn't taken very much to place me squarely on the path he wanted me. I will also state that displeasure or upset in him affected me before there were ever "feelings". For whatever reason, he has been one person that I did NOT want to upset. Again, he has never manipulated (in the bad way), been violent, threatening, but my response to him was more or less automatic. That may be a very general personality trait of mine, but it was greatly magnified when it came to interactions with him. As things have progressed, there have been "feelings" develop on both of our parts. They were present in their earliest stages the first time we met from our marathon chats beforehand. When we initially spoke, I was a stranger, obviously, to him. He really didn't mind upsetting me all that much. I would say he intentionally made himself scary and ran headlong into my limits because he was unconvinced that this faceless stranger was going to be any more than a dead end like the others. My response to him surprised him, as much as it did (and does to this day) me. Only then, did he have a more vested interest. Over time that developed feelings in him that he has said himself he hasn't felt for a partner before. He has said it is the only time he has ever felt afraid of losing a girl. He does all he does to keep me well, safe, and cared for. He gives me those sadistic things because he knows I thrive on them. I have never threatened to leave and can't even imagine a time in which I would. He has come to value me and my presence in his life. It didn't take long for that to occur and he has struggled with the vulnerablity he feels when it comes to me. It is new to him. Okay, it sounds a lot like courtship, but there are twists to this. I would have been just another girl had I not had the natural response to him I did. It is a lot more than chemistry. He had definite expectations and a very narrow set of acceptable responses. Fitting myself within them despite how uncomfortable they were is a little hard to explain. Normally, people are looking for an easy, automatic fit. I'm not sure this is an idea I'm having a whole lot of success pulling apart and it may well be because this is where the discussion really gets interesting. The biggest twist, though, doesn't lie at the start of the road. It is at the end, should there be one. The idea of "the end" is inconceivable to me. It isn't as though I haven't had it happen in my life that a seeming great relationship ended and it hurt, etc. I am probably a pretty jaded person about most relationships, especially my own. I can think up some horrific senarios, but still can't managed to even have the fantasy urge to leave. I even have placed those ideas in the context of things that have caused me to leave relationships in the past. Still nothing. What could he actually do to/with me given this? It would seem, just about anything and definitely beyond my imagination to come up with one thing. Stockholm breaks quickly in general after the person is freed. I can see IE as worse on that aspect because this kind of bond tends to continue for much longer. I would also say IE allows for even greater possibilities in terms of what can be done. That doesn't mean IE is bad, just that, whatever the differences between SS and IE are, they make for an even stronger bond. It means that IE is a greater risk and also holds greater potential for reward (a good relationship). I don't know if it still appears I am bordering on truism, but it certainly isn't my intent. It is just an interesting study and, for the most part, I am discussing ideas I have heard purported by others that I wish to investigate more fully. I think there are some parallels between SS and IE, more in some relationships than others, but I see a lot of "holes" too. I just found it fascinating for some reason, especially when Lima syndrome got thrown in. I hope this is a further clarification, though I have a feeling I just made matters worse. LOL lovingpet

RCdc -> RE: Stockholm to Lima (12/8/2009 11:20:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovingpet I think I have a little more of a handle this afternoon. If what you are getting at is that punishment dynamics do not exist in all relationships, I would agree...to an extent. Formal dynamics may not exist, but as social creatures, we are impacted by how our partner responds to us. I don't know about anyone else, but I know I do not like to see disappointment or anger (though I've never seen anger as yet) on my partner's face that I had put there. I don't disagree with this - I absolutely support the idea. But (eek - ya knew it) all relationships are like that and it isn't a Ms or Ds thing. Husbands and wives go through it when there is no authority dynamic as such. Parents and children. Friends. We are all impacted by disappointed of anger. Even on CM - when posters argue - it occurs visually in the words. So if this is the case, the SS and by default, Lima is prevelent and has parallels in all relationships in some way or another. quote: I don't take any kind of pleasure at examining "where things are going wrong and if we can continue together". I have never been punished, though it is a possibility in a very narrow set of circumstances, but I have experienced a few things of this sort. It hasn't taken very much to place me squarely on the path he wanted me. I will also state that displeasure or upset in him affected me before there were ever "feelings". For whatever reason, he has been one person that I did NOT want to upset. Again, he has never manipulated (in the bad way), been violent, threatening, but my response to him was more or less automatic. That may be a very general personality trait of mine, but it was greatly magnified when it came to interactions with him. Because of empathy maybe? quote: As things have progressed, there have been "feelings" develop on both of our parts. They were present in their earliest stages the first time we met from our marathon chats beforehand. When we initially spoke, I was a stranger, obviously, to him. He really didn't mind upsetting me all that much. I would say he intentionally made himself scary and ran headlong into my limits because he was unconvinced that this faceless stranger was going to be any more than a dead end like the others. My response to him surprised him, as much as it did (and does to this day) me. Only then, did he have a more vested interest. Over time that developed feelings in him that he has said himself he hasn't felt for a partner before. He has said it is the only time he has ever felt afraid of losing a girl. He does all he does to keep me well, safe, and cared for. He gives me those sadistic things because he knows I thrive on them. I have never threatened to leave and can't even imagine a time in which I would. He has come to value me and my presence in his life. It didn't take long for that to occur and he has struggled with the vulnerablity he feels when it comes to me. It is new to him. Your is a different scenario to ours. When I met Master, there was no scarey or fear. The thought that Master may unintentionally upset me, even when he did not know me well, would be a concern him. But then, I am not a masochist. quote: Okay, it sounds a lot like courtship, but there are twists to this. I would have been just another girl had I not had the natural response to him I did. It is a lot more than chemistry. He had definite expectations and a very narrow set of acceptable responses. Fitting myself within them despite how uncomfortable they were is a little hard to explain. Normally, people are looking for an easy, automatic fit. I'm not sure this is an idea I'm having a whole lot of success pulling apart and it may well be because this is where the discussion really gets interesting. Master has very definate goals. I am hesitant to say 'expectations' because that for him, would be too open ended and suggests that there would be a possibility that the end result would not be as he would desire. That is what I admire about him. When he has a goal, he reaches it in the way he directs it... not how he expects it to pan out eventually. So when he says 'A'... I know it will be 'A' not 'a' - not sure if that is making any sense? quote: The biggest twist, though, doesn't lie at the start of the road. It is at the end, should there be one. The idea of "the end" is inconceivable to me. It isn't as though I haven't had it happen in my life that a seeming great relationship ended and it hurt, etc. I am probably a pretty jaded person about most relationships, especially my own. I can think up some horrific senarios, but still can't managed to even have the fantasy urge to leave. I even have placed those ideas in the context of things that have caused me to leave relationships in the past. Still nothing. What could he actually do to/with me given this? It would seem, just about anything and definitely beyond my imagination to come up with one thing. The end doesn't scare me and it isn't inconceivable to me because everything ends. Death occurs and is a natural event. I live in the moment, not in the what ifs or even in the past. But the present and enjoying it rocks! And I am probably the opposite to you - I love relationships - I have a postive vibe about them. To me, it's all good![:D] quote: Stockholm breaks quickly in general after the person is freed. I can see IE as worse on that aspect because this kind of bond tends to continue for much longer. I would also say IE allows for even greater possibilities in terms of what can be done. That doesn't mean IE is bad, just that, whatever the differences between SS and IE are, they make for an even stronger bond. It means that IE is a greater risk and also holds greater potential for reward (a good relationship). I don't see either as being a greater risk or stronger, or greater potential. I just look at a single relationship and the people involved, not the type of relationship it is. Otherwise you (generic) run the risk of glorifying a certain type of relationships above others. It's something you see over and over on this forum - people saying how a Ds relationship is so much more deeper or more intense or stronger than 'vanilla'. Comparing IE to SS is the same thing. quote: I don't know if it still appears I am bordering on truism, but it certainly isn't my intent. It is just an interesting study and, for the most part, I am discussing ideas I have heard purported by others that I wish to investigate more fully. I think there are some parallels between SS and IE, more in some relationships than others, but I see a lot of "holes" too. I just found it fascinating for some reason, especially when Lima syndrome got thrown in. I hope this is a further clarification, though I have a feeling I just made matters worse. LOL I believe the 'danger'(and I am using that term loosely) between comparing the parallels of SS and IE is that stigma of 'mental illness' that you(generic) single out when the reality is that using the analagies and examples you have then ALL relationships can find elements of SS or Lima threaded into them. the.dark.

Justme696 -> RE: Stockholm to Lima (12/8/2009 11:44:12 AM)
isn't it like comparing rape with rough sex?

lovingpet -> RE: Stockholm to Lima (12/8/2009 12:13:18 PM)
Disappointment and anger may work in similar ways in other situations, but I guess I would say it is a little more intentional and perhaps systematic in the case of D/s. Not all will employ these in this way, but I don't think it is all that uncommon either. I will have to flat out admit an extremely amplified connection to him than to pretty much anyone I have met. With the exception of one person, no one has tuned my dials like this. Why I respond to him, specifically him, the way I do is really only eclipsed by how it is received by him. We do go into areas of "fearplay", but what I mentioned was resistence that came from multiple failed attempts over the years. He was fed up. He was convinced that no one was going to be able to meet his needs and desires. He didn't feel like wasting time and investing emotions. What he said wasn't bluster, but he did pretty much just yank me into the darkest parts of his forest from the start. Either I would stay or go. As long as I stayed, he could work with the rest (the fear, confusion, etc). I stayed. Once I was in, I was in. You could say there was a mental/emotional kidnapping of sorts maybe (weird to think that LOL). He just was cutting the bullshit. He didn't care what I claimed, he wanted the evidence on the table immediately. I guess expectations wasn't the right word for my partner either, come to think of it. He does what he says. He makes it happen according to his own plans, timelines, and preferences. I don't think I've known him to not do so. An end of death, though it makes me sad, I can wrap my mind around. An end as in the relationship being over and having to go knowing we each were still out there, I can't fathom that. I can't imagine one reason we would have arrived at that step. None. I hold out a lot of hope for relationships, but I am clear on the fact that couples have to invest in each other and the relationship in order for it to work. It takes effort. Most relationships can be salvaged, but only if both have a mind to do so. As for D/s vs vanilla. I see this as apples and oranges. I see SS and IE as two ways to prepare a dish with apples. Slight changes to ingredients can change the outcome. These can be differing amounts of this or that, substitutions, additions, leaving something out, and so on. What is it that is substituted, added, left out, or the quantity changed to achieve IE? Also, how the ingredients are incorporated together, cooking time, and other procedural variants can change the outcome. What is different in the processes of SS and IE to lead to a similiar, but more favorable outcome? This didn't help at all did it? LOL I agree about the potential to stigmatize with a mental illness label. The mental health community also are well aware that many things humans do are the rerouting of more insidious drives and impulses. A desire to cut, mulitate, or cause extreme pain often is sublimated into practicing medicine. I view SS and IE under a similar lens. One is, in fact, better than the other. One results in a negative outcome and is born of ill motivation. The other, hopefully, results in a positive outcome, though the motivations can be a blade's width apart. Neither are always true. Let's face it, some doctors should have found another path because they aren't any good at being a doctor. Not every dominant is cut out to practice internal enslavement well either. Regardless, there is another side to most things. Mental health communities are all too anxious to ascribe an illness to people's behavior in certain aspects and this is definitely one of them. The weight of psychological history and theory are not behind them when they do so, however. lovingpet

lovingpet -> RE: Stockholm to Lima (12/8/2009 12:15:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Justme696 isn't it like comparing rape with rough sex? Possibly. Let's face it. There's definitely a difference and it is far more than the "consent" issue. But just what are those differences? Courts of law have been trying to figure that one out for a long time now. Even though they can't seem to resolve it definitively, we all pretty well know there's a world of difference. It's a similar thing here. lovingpet

lovingpet -> RE: Stockholm to Lima (12/8/2009 12:18:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Malkinius Sorry, but the things which are/can be used to cause SS are very common in BDSM, especially in IE/PE/TPT relationships. They are also common among spousal abuse situations. I think many domestic abuse situations are SS to some extent, they just don't get listed as that because there is another more accessible term for it. Some of us have already researched this area. Be well.... Malkinius Could you elaborate on these mechanisms and how they are similar and different? That is my interest here. Thanks! lovingpet

RCdc -> RE: Stockholm to Lima (12/8/2009 1:30:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovingpet Disappointment and anger may work in similar ways in other situations, but I guess I would say it is a little more intentional and perhaps systematic in the case of D/s. Not all will employ these in this way, but I don't think it is all that uncommon either. I cannot relate to disappointment or anger being more intentional or more systematic in a Ds relationship. I know Master would not want his woman walking around with the burden of guilt on her shoulders. That is probably why he accepted me as his - I neither dig imprinting guilt nor hang onto it - life is too short to enjoy! Honestly, I do see that as abusive. Of course, YMMV. quote: Either I would stay or go. As long as I stayed, he could work with the rest (the fear, confusion, etc). I stayed. Once I was in, I was in. You could say there was a mental/emotional kidnapping of sorts maybe (weird to think that LOL). He just was cutting the bullshit.He didn't care what I claimed, he wanted the evidence on the table immediately. I can understand just being direct and cutting out the 'bullshit', Master has never been one to faff around. However, Master never wanted evidence from me. I never had to prove myself and I have never felt that I have had to. From him, it was more like - Ok, I have thought about it, made a decision and this is how it is and will be. There has never really been point of 'you stay or you go' in our relationship. We came into each others life and he decided it's result. It's never been my place (as corny as that sounds) to 'claim' anything in regards to this relationship. quote: An end of death, though it makes me sad, I can wrap my mind around. An end as in the relationship being over and having to go knowing we each were still out there, I can't fathom that. I can't imagine one reason we would have arrived at that step. None. I hold out a lot of hope for relationships, but I am clear on the fact that couples have to invest in each other and the relationship in order for it to work. It takes effort. Most relationships can be salvaged, but only if both have a mind to do so. I agree about that to an extent. However, like I said, I don't fear death - which is far more appropriate a word (for me) than 'end'. But then I dig the circle of life, so that's me - the annoyingly ever postive and chipper girlie I am.[:D] quote: As for D/s vs vanilla. I see this as apples and oranges. I see SS and IE as two ways to prepare a dish with apples. Slight changes to ingredients can change the outcome. These can be differing amounts of this or that, substitutions, additions, leaving something out, and so on. What is it that is substituted, added, left out, or the quantity changed to achieve IE? Also, how the ingredients are incorporated together, cooking time, and other procedural variants can change the outcome. What is different in the processes of SS and IE to lead to a similiar, but more favorable outcome? This didn't help at all did it? LOL I don't view Ds (or in our case Ms) and socalled 'vanilla' as apple or oranges, more like a dog. So many different breeds of dog, so many hybrids. I think it was KoM's kyra who once, many moons ago, used the analagy of a venn diagram. That rocked for me - gave me lots to think about. quote: I agree about the potential to stigmatize with a mental illness label. The mental health community also are well aware that many things humans do are the rerouting of more insidious drives and impulses. A desire to cut, mulitate, or cause extreme pain often is sublimated into practicing medicine. I view SS and IE under a similar lens. One is, in fact, better than the other. One results in a negative outcome and is born of ill motivation. The other, hopefully, results in a positive outcome, though the motivations can be a blade's width apart. Neither are always true. You should watch 'Tiemeup, Tiemedown'. [;)] quote: Let's face it, some doctors should have found another path because they aren't any good at being a doctor. Not every dominant is cut out to practice internal enslavement well either. Regardless, there is another side to most things. Mental health communities are all too anxious to ascribe an illness to people's behavior in certain aspects and this is definitely one of them. The weight of psychological history and theory are not behind them when they do so, however. Which is why I would hesitate assigning SS to IE and making it more 'anything' than something else. To me, SS and Lima can happen regardless of whether is IE, BDSM, vanilla or some other type of relationship. It can be about survival, but for me, the key element is always about an element of empathy. the.dark.

Justme696 -> RE: Stockholm to Lima (12/8/2009 1:36:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovingpet quote: ORIGINAL: Justme696 isn't it like comparing rape with rough sex? Possibly. Let's face it. There's definitely a difference and it is far more than the "consent" issue. But just what are those differences? Courts of law have been trying to figure that one out for a long time now. Even though they can't seem to resolve it definitively, we all pretty well know there's a world of difference. It's a similar thing here. lovingpet Personally..I see a difference in life and death.. forced and freewill Even when captured and having a relation....your life is at risk. Courts have problems with the fact that the "victim"is not accusing the criminal, but still..the criminal committed a crime. (because in the beginning..they didn't want to be taken). It is an interesting topic though.

lovingpet -> RE: Stockholm to Lima (12/8/2009 2:03:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: ORIGINAL: lovingpet Disappointment and anger may work in similar ways in other situations, but I guess I would say it is a little more intentional and perhaps systematic in the case of D/s. Not all will employ these in this way, but I don't think it is all that uncommon either. I cannot relate to disappointment or anger being more intentional or more systematic in a Ds relationship. I know Master would not want his woman walking around with the burden of guilt on her shoulders. That is probably why he accepted me as his - I neither dig imprinting guilt nor hang onto it - life is too short to enjoy! Honestly, I do see that as abusive. Of course, YMMV. I don't identify either, but it is discussed with reasonable frequency. That whole "domly handbook" thing. LOL I believe it exists and I just know that they use it. Now to prove it! LOL But, no, it is not my experience either. The whole thread is a mix of my experiences and thoughts and those of others, so in this case, it is a case of trying to understand that which I haven't experienced either. quote: Either I would stay or go. As long as I stayed, he could work with the rest (the fear, confusion, etc). I stayed. Once I was in, I was in. You could say there was a mental/emotional kidnapping of sorts maybe (weird to think that LOL). He just was cutting the bullshit.He didn't care what I claimed, he wanted the evidence on the table immediately. I can understand just being direct and cutting out the 'bullshit', Master has never been one to faff around. However, Master never wanted evidence from me. I never had to prove myself and I have never felt that I have had to. From him, it was more like - Ok, I have thought about it, made a decision and this is how it is and will be. There has never really been point of 'you stay or you go' in our relationship. We came into each others life and he decided it's result. It's never been my place (as corny as that sounds) to 'claim' anything in regards to this relationship. quote: An end of death, though it makes me sad, I can wrap my mind around. An end as in the relationship being over and having to go knowing we each were still out there, I can't fathom that. I can't imagine one reason we would have arrived at that step. None. I hold out a lot of hope for relationships, but I am clear on the fact that couples have to invest in each other and the relationship in order for it to work. It takes effort. Most relationships can be salvaged, but only if both have a mind to do so. I agree about that to an extent. However, like I said, I don't fear death - which is far more appropriate a word (for me) than 'end'. But then I dig the circle of life, so that's me - the annoyingly ever postive and chipper girlie I am.[:D] I guess that's why I can get my head around death as opposed to some other kind of "ending". Death isn't an ending to me either. [:)] quote: As for D/s vs vanilla. I see this as apples and oranges. I see SS and IE as two ways to prepare a dish with apples. Slight changes to ingredients can change the outcome. These can be differing amounts of this or that, substitutions, additions, leaving something out, and so on. What is it that is substituted, added, left out, or the quantity changed to achieve IE? Also, how the ingredients are incorporated together, cooking time, and other procedural variants can change the outcome. What is different in the processes of SS and IE to lead to a similiar, but more favorable outcome? This didn't help at all did it? LOL I don't view Ds (or in our case Ms) and socalled 'vanilla' as apple or oranges, more like a dog. So many different breeds of dog, so many hybrids. I think it was KoM's kyra who once, many moons ago, used the analagy of a venn diagram. That rocked for me - gave me lots to think about. That's why I didn't say apples and chicken. They have some common ground, but there are some pretty obvious surface differences. They are both still fruit. What I would do with an orange or an apple or whether or not I like the taste will vary. I happen to like both apples and oranges, but I'm not going to try to make a pie out of oranges. How much overlap is there? That's interesting to me. What areas are, in fact different? That is interesting to me as well. quote: I agree about the potential to stigmatize with a mental illness label. The mental health community also are well aware that many things humans do are the rerouting of more insidious drives and impulses. A desire to cut, mulitate, or cause extreme pain often is sublimated into practicing medicine. I view SS and IE under a similar lens. One is, in fact, better than the other. One results in a negative outcome and is born of ill motivation. The other, hopefully, results in a positive outcome, though the motivations can be a blade's width apart. Neither are always true. You should watch 'Tiemeup, Tiemedown'. [;)] I may just do that! [:)] quote: Let's face it, some doctors should have found another path because they aren't any good at being a doctor. Not every dominant is cut out to practice internal enslavement well either. Regardless, there is another side to most things. Mental health communities are all too anxious to ascribe an illness to people's behavior in certain aspects and this is definitely one of them. The weight of psychological history and theory are not behind them when they do so, however. Which is why I would hesitate assigning SS to IE and making it more 'anything' than something else. To me, SS and Lima can happen regardless of whether is IE, BDSM, vanilla or some other type of relationship. It can be about survival, but for me, the key element is always about an element of empathy. the.dark. In terms of what I wrote in the post you just quoted I wouldn't say "more". I would say flip side of the SS coin. Even that is inaccurate though. How about SS as the dark side of the force and IE as the Jedi side? geek moment I don't know. I don't think we are as far apart on this as it seems. Then again, what do I know? LOL lovingpet

CaringandReal -> RE: Stockholm to Lima (12/8/2009 5:07:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark I just know how people tend to take my opinion on this issue and how it takes over thread and I didn't want to stress LP more than she is frustrated with already in the thread. I'd be happy to message you about it, or even participate on a thread if you want to start one. Oh! Sorry, guys. It was not my intention start anything like that up. I agree, it's not nice to make a mess in someone else's thread, especially when said thread is already staggering around drunkenly in various directions (and I don't think I'm helping matters; I'm just pursuing what ideas interest me without even a clear understanding of what SS is. The trouble is, I don't WANT a clear idea of it...yet. :D) quote: I have to say, I identify more with the assertion that Malkinius made about SS and spousal abuse situations, than SS and IE. I am pretty sure that(from what I know of, but I may be incorrect) with SS there is a more systematic break down of a person that just doesn't exist in all IE relationships. Of course there is going to be a percentage of IE relationships that aspire to breaking a person to mold them, but I am just not a fan of all encompassing, sweeping statements. I don't know if abuse has to be there for SS - I do believe that empathy does. Hard for me to respond to this, knowing so little about SS (and purposefully knowing so little about IE), but I look forward to reading your and LP's further exchanges that seem to have been sparked by this. Sure, break-and-mold is an old pattern that's been with bdsm at least as long as it's been conscious, but I think there are more effective ways of inducing extreme personality change--ways that give you more bang for your buck. But maybe I've just seen too many broken submissives. I'm a big fan of techniques that closely associate something positive with desired behaviors or attitudes. They can be, when used in depth and with somone receptive to them and not too distracted by other issues, extremely effective. Breaking-and-molding certainly sounds like fun, though. It's not an amusement I'll indulgue myself, however, as long as I am free. I think I'd enjoy it far too much, and I have a sometimes unforutunate talent at affecting (infecting?) others with my enthusiasms. ;) Empathy, that's interesting. I suspect you're right about that.

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