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Developing masochism - 12/1/2009 10:11:12 PM   
ReverendSauced


Posts: 9
Joined: 12/1/2009
Status: offline 		For the experienced here, I have an interesting question about developing masochistic pleasure in your subs.

Right now I get off on light pain, but nothing extreme: truly painful things shut me down.

Is it possible for a domme to train pain response and raise the tolerance threshold. Additionally, I derive *some* pleasure from pain, but nothing on the level I've heard from others. Is this too, in your experience, a trainable thing.

I can't imagine how useful and freeing it would be to truly derive pleasure from pain, as long as it wasn't the only thing that brought me pleasure :)
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RE: Developing masochism - 12/1/2009 11:02:13 PM   
sophiesback


Posts: 4039
Joined: 11/4/2009
From: Illinois
Status: offline 		There's a huge difference between tolerating something and enjoying it. Of course, one can build up a tolerance to nearly anything through practice. Learning to enjoy something takes much more dedication/determination, but is possible, also.

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RE: Developing masochism - 12/1/2009 11:26:02 PM   
ReverendSauced


Posts: 9
Joined: 12/1/2009
Status: offline 		Indeed, and I can see how these are two separate yet interrelated paths.

I admit, I am intensely interested in raising my threshold so I can deal with physical pain in general in the armed services.

Everything from muscle strains to acute, minor trauma, really.

A strange thing, I know, but I'm still interested.

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RE: Developing masochism - 12/1/2009 11:32:43 PM   
sophiesback


Posts: 4039
Joined: 11/4/2009
From: Illinois
Status: offline 		Minor trauma?  Start with Minor and work your way up!

As a masochist myself, i see nothing strange about it.

< Message edited by sophiesback -- 12/1/2009 11:33:29 PM >

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RE: Developing masochism - 12/1/2009 11:38:54 PM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		I am kind of in the same boat as you. He is a sadist and derives a lot of pleasure from inflicting pain on me. I am not a masochist in the sense that I don't orgasm from pain. I do get highly aroused while it's happening even though I tend to get angry at him at the same time. I have built up my pain tolerance over the past year and can take much harder hits. I still am not any closer to orgasming from any of that though. I am just not wired that way. For me, the orgasm occur from the stimulation he gives me while everything is happening, not from the pain. Did any of that make sense?

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RE: Developing masochism - 12/1/2009 11:44:24 PM   
Fitznicely


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline 		Associating pain with pleasure - it's a bit like brainwashing,but the results are pretty awesome...I gradually worked up my girl's threshold by interspersing canings/floggings with some kind of sexual activity. Eventually, her brain began to associate one with the other. Now she's a total painslut

Meditation - our normal response to being hurt is to focus on the point where the pain is. Pain is a feeling which can be controlled, learning to meditate and spread those feelings around your body can dull the pain and allow you to carry on. I learned a breathing technique which enabled me to meditate the pain away in my early teens. Now, around 20 ears later, I'm notorious for picking up all kinds of bumps, bruises, cuts and whatever, and not noticing, even when streaming with blood. Not sure it'd work for broken bones, but for minor stuff, it's very useful.

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RE: Developing masochism - 12/2/2009 3:26:19 AM   
Sfortzando


Posts: 174
Joined: 1/30/2009
Status: offline 		Essentially, painsluts get off on the endorphine rush. Instead of runners high, they have whippers high (or would that be whippee?). For some, the rush of endorphans can trigger an orgasm, and I'm not sure, but that sounds like something that is biologically determined. Either you can or you can't. I imagine, however, that it would be possible to train yourself to get to a level where the endorphine levels in your brain could be equal to the levels when orgasming. At that point, an orgasm itself would just be icing!

Good luck on your journey.

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RE: Developing masochism - 12/2/2009 4:35:25 AM   
CaringandReal


Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline 		Skinner, Pavlov, behavior mod. As annoying as these are as overall theories of what makes us human, in this particular area they work, as Fitznicely said, rather spectacularly. It has nothing to do with endorphins, in my personal experience. My body, for instance, does not produce many when being tortured. But you can create a similar end-result to a masochist's endorphin rush by closely associating sexual arousal with physical pain, and you do that by making the two experiences occur close in time to each other. And yes, it does take time to make that connection. But good things are worth taking time over.:)

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RE: Developing masochism - 12/2/2009 5:31:22 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline 		Like others here have said, its all in the mind. Think about it... some people can have operations whilst fully awake with no drugs. They can only do this through their own mindset. I for example used to be terrified of needles because that sharp pointy bit brought nothing but unpleasant pain. I can now take many needles all over my body and I feel no pain.
When Fakir was about to put shark hooks through me I nearly passed out with the thought of it. He stopped what he was doing and said 'the only thing you are frightened of is the pain. If you stop fearing the pain then this will be nothing more than a pleasurable experience'. He got me into a mindset where I felt nothing but a good rush.
When I am taking an extremely hard flogging I inwardly smile and imagine that each stroke is bringing me closer to a wonderful destiny.

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RE: Developing masochism - 12/2/2009 5:53:58 AM   
vixenkneels


Posts: 94
Joined: 2/5/2005
From: LAKE OF THE OZARKS, MISSOURI
Status: offline 		I too am a pain slut and find that Master has been able to increase my pain tolerance levels over the years by associating sexual arousal/satisfaction with pain. I'm capable of having an orgasm from pain without being touched sexually BUT I do not have to have pain to orgasm.

I agree with you that often times the FEAR of pain is the pain. I remember when I first had my nipples pierced many years ago and Master was in to some weight training. I proclaimed the pain to be too great for a very long time until I realized the pain was eminating from my mind because I could picture nothing but my piercings ripping out during the use of heavy weights. Once I did realize that I was able to handle weights up to eight pounds on each nipple and be able to sink in to a deep subspace.

The cliche' we all see here in the forums and in profiles about capturing the mind first and having the body follow is so true.



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RE: Developing masochism - 12/2/2009 6:13:42 AM   
aldompdx


Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline 		One does not intellectually "learn" to enjoy something like pain. Instead, one must experience endorphin release which they then associate at a deeper non-intellectual sub-conscious level. One example is the pleasure which some derive from "runner's high."

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RE: Developing masochism - 12/2/2009 6:31:57 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

Skinner, Pavlov, behavior mod. As annoying as these are as overall theories of what makes us human, in this particular area they work, as Fitznicely said, rather spectacularly.

The efficiency of behaviour modification / stimulus response has been proven time and time again. I'd venture to say that in theory, anyone can be reprogrammed given the appropriate stimulus, some being tougher to "break" than others.

quote:

It has nothing to do with endorphins, in my personal experience. My body, for instance, does not produce many when being tortured. But you can create a similar end-result to a masochist's endorphin rush by closely associating sexual arousal with physical pain, and you do that by making the two experiences occur close in time to each other.

I won't be so presumptuous as to tell you what *your* body does and does not do. From what I know, and I don't claim to know it all, endorphins work as natural pain relievers and are automatically produced by the body. That said, I'm curious how you have come to discover that your body does not produce many endorphins when being tortured. How does one measure that?

quote:

And yes, it does take time to make that connection. But good things are worth taking time over.:)

Oh and it is a Sadist's thrill to get one to crave it over time! The longer the process for us, the better!

- LA

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RE: Developing masochism - 12/2/2009 6:53:12 AM   
Underumam


Posts: 485
Joined: 12/18/2008
Status: offline 		Hello Lady Angelika, I hope You're feeling well today!

I was curious about Your experience/opinion on the possibility of taking a person who who is not a so-called pain slut, and turning them into one. Has this been done by You or anyone You know? Also, was it something the turned one ended up enjoying/needing/craving/benefited from, or was the turnaround more designed to accompany the Dommes needs and desires?

Have You ever known the reverse of this-that being a mostly sensual Dominant that one day took the route of a sadist, and found it to be more gratifying?

Thanks in advance.

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RE: Developing masochism - 12/2/2009 7:51:37 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam
Hello Lady Angelika, I hope You're feeling well today!

I am... procrastinating a bit on writing a huge report... no wait... ummm... I'm doing writing warming-up exercises here! ;-)

quote:

I was curious about Your experience/opinion on the possibility of taking a person who who is not a so-called pain slut, and turning them into one. Has this been done by You or anyone You know? Also, was it something the turned one ended up enjoying/needing/craving/benefited from, or was the turnaround more designed to accompany the Dommes needs and desires?


To say that I transformed a total pain hater into a total pain lover would be untrue. I have however, over time, made boys learn to crave the pain I give them.

I recall one in particular man who was more of a service-oriented boy than anything. He told me right away that any pain was a hard limit. Not good for a sadist! But he was so absolutely yummy that I decided to give him a try anyways. I essentially worked on the premise that he wanted to please me. The first few times I tied him up, I used nothing but teeth and fingernails to create sensations. As these are highly sensual, I slowly started getting his mind wrapped around the idea that watching him squirm excited me. His personal mission was to excite me, so this worked well.

As he liked to service, I also would spank him hand-to-bare-bottom when he did something incorrectly. This was humiliating as well as painful and worked on his mind more than anything. He didn't want the spankings, but he deeply craved the guidance. The fact that I used my hand rather than an object created the intimacy he needed as well.

Over time, I layered pain into predicament bondage, a technique which puts someone who really wants to please in a conflict of desires where they learn to accept the pain in order to please. An example of this is when I bound his arms behind his back, then brought the rope down and tied it to a ball-bondage device. When he leaned forward to orally please me, the rope put quite a bit of tension on his balls and he felt quite the tug. Poor thing! ;-) But his desire to service me was greater than the pain between his legs. I saw pride in his eyes when he realised that could overcome the pain to please me. I think he really liked the vulnerability too. I relished it!

A line that I used a lot with him was "It pleases me to see you take this pain for me" and that would automatically give him goosebumps. It's all about getting inside someone's head and figuring out their triggers. For me, figuring out what makes someone tick is half the thrill.

quote:

Have You ever known the reverse of this-that being a mostly sensual Dominant that one day took the route of a sadist, and found it to be more gratifying?

To be honest, no. But I might not be the right person to ask about other's experiences because aside from these boards, I don't really share my experiences with many, except for my boys. I have a small handfull of real life kinky friends.

I will tell you however that in the beginning, I was terrified of my sadistic side. In fact, for a long time, I only played on my masochistic side, being in relationships where I topped from the bottom. The first time I was with a true maso, I had to walk away, afraid of the beast within me. Then over time, I got more comfortable with it. A great deal of my evolution was meeting my friend and mentor which I talked about a few years back in this thread. He is a brilliant sadist and helped me reconcile this part of me. At times, I still have some struggles with it to this day, but mostly, and especially when I find a boy that I trust, I live with it quite well.

- LA



< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 12/2/2009 8:30:22 AM >

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RE: Developing masochism - 12/2/2009 8:03:56 AM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		This is a very interesting question. I am not at all what one could call a masochist. I don't like pain and don't need pain to get off. However, during my last relationship with someone who became more sadistic as time went on, I discovered that the higher my sexual arousal, the more I could take. It was actually shocking that something that could be done to me while not "sexually high" was too painful to deal with, but when that same activity was done during high arousal, not only could I take it but I really got off on the infliction of the pain.

I agree that when you link sexual arousal to a pain activity, it can be done.

Although, I also believe that it is your connection with an individual that makes the difference as well. This was such an intense chemical connection that I was able to go where I had not gone before.

< Message edited by sexyred1 -- 12/2/2009 8:05:31 AM >

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RE: Developing masochism - 12/2/2009 8:42:38 AM   
Underumam


Posts: 485
Joined: 12/18/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam
Hello Lady Angelika, I hope You're feeling well today!

I am... procrastinating a bit on writing a huge report... no wait... ummm... I'm doing writing warming-up exercises here! ;-)

quote:

I was curious about Your experience/opinion on the possibility of taking a person who who is not a so-called pain slut, and turning them into one. Has this been done by You or anyone You know? Also, was it something the turned one ended up enjoying/needing/craving/benefited from, or was the turnaround more designed to accompany the Dommes needs and desires?


To say that I transformed a total pain hater into a total pain lover would be untrue. I have however, over time, made boys learn to crave the pain I give them.

I recall one in particular man who was more of a service-oriented boy than anything. He told me right away that any pain was a hard limit. Not good for a sadist! But he was so absolutely yummy that I decided to give him a try anyways. I essentially worked on the premise that he wanted to please me. The first few times I tied him up, I used nothing but teeth and fingernails to create sensations. As these are highly sensual, I slowly started getting his mind wrapped around the idea that watching him squirm excited me. His personal mission was to excite me, so this worked well.

As he liked to service, I also would spank him hand-to-bare-bottom when he did something incorrectly. This was humiliating as well as painful and worked on his mind more than anything. He didn't want the spankings, but he deeply craved the guidance. The fact that I used my hand rather than an object created the intimacy he needed as well.

Over time, I layered pain into predicament bondage, a technique which puts someone who really wants to please in a conflict of desires where they learn to accept the pain in order to please. An example of this is when I bound his arms behind his back, then brought the rope down and tied it to a ball-bondage device. When he leaned forward to orally please me, the rope put quite a bit of tension on his balls and he felt quite the tug. Poor thing! ;-) But his desire to service me was greater than the pain between his legs. I think I saw pride in his eyes when he realised that could overcome the pain to please me. I think he really liked the vulnerability too. I relished it!

A line that I used a lot with him was "It pleases me to see you take this pain for me" and that would automatically give him goosebumps. It's all about getting inside someone's head and figuring out their triggers. For me, figuring out what makes someone tick is half the thrill.

quote:

Have You ever known the reverse of this-that being a mostly sensual Dominant that one day took the route of a sadist, and found it to be more gratifying?

To be honest, no. But I might not be the right person to ask about other's experiences because aside from these boards, I don't really share my experiences with many, except for my boys. I have a small handfull of real life kinky friends.

I will tell you however that in the beginning, I was terrified of my sadistic side. In fact, for a long time, I only played on my masochistic side, being in relationships where I topped from the bottom. The first time I was with a true maso, I had to walk away, afraid of the beast within me. Then over time, I got more comfortable with it. A great deal of my evolution was meeting my friend and mentor which I talked about a few years back in this thread. He is a brilliant sadist and helped me reconcile this part of me. At times, I still have some struggles with it to this day, but mostly, and especially when I find a boy that I trust, I live with it quite well.

- LA




lol. I'm doing the same, writing a report for my Historical preservation class on Chesapeake Bay-Tidewater home construction of the 17th-18th centuries. Boring for most, but fun for me..

I really appreciate Your detailed answers and honesty in replying. It's god to chat with someone who's kink is a matter of preference, and not economic necessity.lol. Although She can certainly do it if necessary, neither Ms. Lockit or I are into the heavy pain thing, but I enjoy trying to understand O/others, and wondering if there's any relationship to the milder forms of kink that I enjoy. My inexperience and ignorance in pain(other than sundances that I participated in over the years) often leave me wondering /looking for similarities with the new perspectives others say they have reached through suffering in the bdsm way of life.

I always figured that "warped"(lol) people engaged in these types of activities, and if they were somehow brought into a more balanced mental state, the need for inflicting/accepting pain would subside. I'm finding out that I couldn't have been further from the truth, and am trult grateful for the opinions that Yourself and others share with me on the subject. I guess I'll probably never completely understand it unless I participate over a period of time, and that takes too much trust so it's scary to take seriously. lol. However, I can relate to being addicted to sensuality, and I even enjoy it as long as it doesn't rule my life,  but an addiction to pain literally scares the crap outta me. What makes One desire another to accept pain over other things(washing dishes/backrubs/and other things that require devotion and comittment) as way of proving their desire to serve and please?(other than the "thrill" that You've already mentioned of course)

Once again, I appreciate You and other's input.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
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RE: Developing masochism - 12/2/2009 1:22:36 PM   
Drifa


Posts: 547
Joined: 7/27/2007
From: Rural Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ReverendSauced
Right now I get off on light pain, but nothing extreme: truly painful things shut me down.


For me, I'm not comfortable starting right off the bat with something like a caning. My Lady usually starts off with hand spanking or a mop flogger, then moves gradually into more painful toys. There are pauses in the impact to allow sensual teasing and touching, such as with feathers, or fur, light strokes.  When arousal and the pain go hand-in-hand, it's not really pain at all. My brain is processing it all as a greedy "feels good, want more". With a proper warm-up, I can enjoy a LOT more pain than I could otherwise.

But you don't have to be into masochism or heavy pain to be in a D/s relationship. Dominance is not the same thing as sadism, just as submission is not synonymous with masochism. There are plenty of D/s couples who don't do any pain play. The key is to find a dominant partner whose desires match well with your own.



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RE: Developing masochism - 12/2/2009 1:31:24 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I always figured that "warped"(lol) people engaged in these types of activities, and if they were somehow brought into a more balanced mental state, the need for inflicting/accepting pain would subside. I'm finding out that I couldn't have been further from the truth, and am trult grateful for the opinions that Yourself and others share with me on the subject. I guess I'll probably never completely understand it unless I participate over a period of time, and that takes too much trust so it's scary to take seriously. lol.


Well I might be a wee bit warped. ;-) But apparently, many boys find that to be a sexy quality!

The good news is, that as long as sadomasochism is tempered with empathy, it's perfectly fine. The true deviance are the ones who have blatant disrespect for the other.

I'm so happy to hear as well that it is through these discussions that you learn to see beyond the stereotypes. That's absolutely fabulous.

- LA

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RE: Developing masochism - 12/2/2009 1:46:28 PM   
ReverendSauced


Posts: 9
Joined: 12/1/2009
Status: offline 		This is all very helpful; educational in fact. I already know I'm the kind of person that can reprogram my stimulus/response sets, so now the question becomes whether I can significantly raise my general threshold under a mistress.

I'm far more interested in torture and endurance than, say, spankings and needleplay. Controlled icebaths tho - frightening yet intriguing.


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RE: Developing masochism - 12/2/2009 1:52:45 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

...I can't imagine how useful and freeing it would be to truly derive pleasure from pain, as long as it wasn't the only thing that brought me pleasure :)...


yeah, well...this slave discovered her sexuality at an early age, so for the majority of her life it was frightening, isolating and depressing.  "what the fuck is wrong with you...you need 'help' ", is what this slave heard from partners she confessed it to, so she stopped confessing it and prayed to the Great Architect to please, please make it go away.
the only time it was useful and freeing was during childbirth, so as not to "need" anesthetic, and upon meeting an incredible sadist who appreciates it for what it is...instead of making it a case for needing therapy.
as far as developing or modifying it, this slave has no clue...for her, it came stock. 

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