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RE: Rationalizing red flags - 10/22/2009 8:03:31 AM   
oceanwynds1


Posts: 53
Joined: 10/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

A lot of people who are abusive or just extremely incompatible take the frog-boiling approach. They wait a while, and start out with such subtle things that the target doesn't notice, and gradually increase the intensity over time to something that would have made the frog or victim jump out of the situation. I've been in a couple of similar relationships, and it did affect my opinion of my own judgement. I'd suggest you focus less on "why didn't I notice sooner," and more on "what are some of the subtle changes he made early on?"


Thank you for this. i have made notice of the subtle changes. i also learned doesn't matter who you are and what your credentials are. It is just a book cover and nothing more, and that has been a major lesson i have learned. i will not ever permit myself to be isolated from other submissives either.

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Rationalizing red flags - 10/22/2009 8:06:55 AM   
MsSavra


Posts: 29
Joined: 12/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: oceanwynds1

i have learned. i will not ever permit myself to be isolated from other submissives either.


Or from family, friends, workmates, outside world either, please.

*hugs* Savra

(in reply to oceanwynds1)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Rationalizing red flags - 10/22/2009 8:07:12 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: oceanwynds1
How do i begin walking through my ruins?
Howsabout you stop thinking of yourself and/or your life as ruins? At least from my standpoint, you're one of the more caring, sensitive, and sensable posters on these boards. It may look like ruins to you, but to me, it still looks like you.


_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to oceanwynds1)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Rationalizing red flags - 10/22/2009 8:11:43 AM   
oceanwynds1


Posts: 53
Joined: 10/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: oceanwynds1
How do i begin walking through my ruins?
Howsabout you stop thinking of yourself and/or your life as ruins? At least from my standpoint, you're one of the more caring, sensitive, and sensable posters on these boards. It may look like ruins to you, but to me, it still looks like you.



smiles. Thank you

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Rationalizing red flags - 10/22/2009 8:13:26 AM   
girlivy


Posts: 699
Joined: 7/6/2007
Status: offline 		There is a rule with some friends here : If you are going to beat yourself up, then do it in front of others with some type of impact impliment in hand, so others may enjoy it too! Yes I hang out with sadistic bastards!
To label ones past experiences as"failures" IMHO isnt accurate (for myself) they are just what they are, Experiences that i choose none being better or worse, just different, and yeah, at times had left me feeling so shitty and the only way was to allow "cavegirl" to take over... At the end of the day a choice was made, it didnt work out as had hoped, so, in walks growth out of a nondesireable situation....
I wish you a speedy way to draw strength and thankfullness of the blessings IN your life, ( Congrats on the wedding, and safety in your travels!)then the less desirables will have less of an impact. i have been when you are, and i understand.... "This too shall pass"
Continued blessings,
ivy

_____________________________

AUTHENTIC SPIRITUAL GROWTH NEVER COMES FROM EXPERIENCES THAT THE EGO CAN PREDICT OR CONTROL.
OUR SPIRIT HAS ITS OWN AGENDA: OUR DESTINY.
Be yourself, everyone else is taken!

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Rationalizing red flags - 10/22/2009 8:13:59 AM   
oceanwynds1


Posts: 53
Joined: 10/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsSavra

quote:

ORIGINAL: oceanwynds1

i have learned. i will not ever permit myself to be isolated from other submissives either.


Or from family, friends, workmates, outside world either, please.

*hugs* Savra


that was the subtle part . i was allowed to have my friends who mostly are vanilla. he knew i couldnt discuss this with them. i was permitted to keep in touch with ex Sir but all emails exchange were review by him. i was permitted after awhile to get back on collarme with a close profile.

thank you Savra for the hugs:)

(in reply to MsSavra)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Rationalizing red flags - 10/22/2009 9:16:41 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: oceanwynds1

I do not know how to begin to put my pieces together, and because of my lack of trusting and having faith in myself, i find myself now very unsteady. I will not seek a Dom at this time, because i have to find me again. I have to find the trust in me again.

How do i begin walking through my ruins?


i believe you need to take the focus off of him for now. but i also feel you have to begin to see yourself through realistic eyes as well. right now you're kicking yourself for failing to see his flaws. rather than engage in behavior that will do zilch to improve your mental state, look for the real reason it occurred. that requires you to be more analytical and brutally honest. you'll have to remember what you found appealing and articulate why you liked those traits. but don't stop there, you have to connect the dots to determine what they offered or provided for you internally. otherwise the attraction would have never come about.

the next step is to examine your life before he entered the picture. what state where you in physically, mentally, and emotionally? was anything amiss or absent? were you restless and growing impatient with your search? if so, has this happened in the past and the behavior was merely replicated? understanding this will give you significant clues about why the situation progressed and didn't end. you also have to review your past relations. do you have a habit of ignoring things when the relationship is going well? do you often sweep things under the rug or practice avoidance? are you afraid of being alone or were you lonely when you met? were you happy then or did your happiness develop as a result of the pairing?

after you've done all of this you have to begin to forgive and let go. there will be bouts of anger, sadness, disgust, disappointment, and you will have more than one occasion when you are tempted to kick yourself. however, if you take the time to discover why you behaved in this way, the truth will make it very hard to wallow or permit self destructive thinking to take root. most importantly you have to forgive yourself. mistakes occur. use the situation as a springboard and address the factors that led you down this road. if you do then you've already changed the landscape and bring in the possibility of a better experience the next go round.

i find it preferable to do this when you're alone. i have never believed in running from one situation to the next. the more baggage you release the clearer your vision becomes. a healthier happier you also attracts the same. unlike some i don't see situations of this nature as mistakes, but life lessons. at some point you'll connect the dots and see how one led to the next and so on. but each are sending you in a direction that you control. you merely need to determine whether the outcome will be positive and fulfilling or a replication of what you've had before. it truly is yours to control. choose wisely.

porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to oceanwynds1)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Rationalizing red flags - 10/22/2009 9:25:23 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Get a piece of paper, make two columns. One: Good things. Two: Bad things.
Under good 1) encouraged to talk to others
Under bad 1) isolated in any form

And so on. Look at every relationship you've ever had, what were the characteristics in the other person that put a smile on your face - write those down in the good column. Characteristics that made you contemplate chain saw massacre go in the bad column. The person themselves may have been neither good nor bad in intent, but the characteristics work for you in one of two ways.

I find it enormously helpful to look at it in black and white because then I can't rationalize how hot he is when I know he has every bad thing and none of the good. At that point I have to accept that I am looking for the one person worst for me.

Beyond that, how many men have you dated for several weeks in your life? It is said that we need to seriously date 24 people to really know what works for us. I haven't come anywhere near that number to know what it is about that person that does or doesn't work for me. Most of us haven't. We have one date, or one night stands or we go straight into long term. This just doesn't give us enough experience to know ourselves in a relationship, to know what does or doesn't work.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Rationalizing red flags - 10/22/2009 9:26:37 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		oceanwynds,

I don't know what happened or what brought you to this point but be careful in allowing yourself to become a victim either of him or yourself and because its easy to do so allow discussions that stem from places like these to feed that victim mentality because people are commiserating and trying to help.   You have been strong and have made the best decision for you, now its time to look forward.  Yes there are going to be good days and bad days but if you allow yourself to become a victim EVEN a victim OF yourself and your actions, it will be harder to climb out of the hole this situation seems to have generated for you.  

Most people don't see how bad that mentality actually is because in reflecting and trying to make sense of it all, its easy to see what you THINK you should have saw or whatnot.  You are OUT of the situation, don't allow reflection to make you an aftereffect victim.   Its hard, and you will at times want to beat yourself up, you will want to say what if, you will want to be angry, mad, cry, yeah and even laugh hysterically as the past moves through you like an old movie of incredible disbelief to you, but just remember if you make yourself a victim of anyone, you will have to also fight continuing to live as a victim versus living as a survivor of a bad situation (no matter what it is).  The choice in this is yours and only yours.

Hope that makes sense. 

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Rationalizing red flags - 10/22/2009 9:56:52 AM   
oceanwynds1


Posts: 53
Joined: 10/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

oceanwynds,

I don't know what happened or what brought you to this point but be careful in allowing yourself to become a victim either of him or yourself and because its easy to do so allow discussions that stem from places like these to feed that victim mentality because people are commiserating and trying to help.   You have been strong and have made the best decision for you, now its time to look forward.  Yes there are going to be good days and bad days but if you allow yourself to become a victim EVEN a victim OF yourself and your actions, it will be harder to climb out of the hole this situation seems to have generated for you.  

Most people don't see how bad that mentality actually is because in reflecting and trying to make sense of it all, its easy to see what you THINK you should have saw or whatnot.  You are OUT of the situation, don't allow reflection to make you an aftereffect victim.   Its hard, and you will at times want to beat yourself up, you will want to say what if, you will want to be angry, mad, cry, yeah and even laugh hysterically as the past moves through you like an old movie of incredible disbelief to you, but just remember if you make yourself a victim of anyone, you will have to also fight continuing to live as a victim versus living as a survivor of a bad situation (no matter what it is).  The choice in this is yours and only yours.

Hope that makes sense. 

angel


I really cannot tolerate the victim mentality. I was not a victim of him and i won't be for myself. I have done a lot of clear space this morning, and i not picking myself either as much. Yes there are tears to cry, anger, sadness and joy that I knew what was good for me and not. I walked away, even though it hurt to do so.

I was married 29 years and had a good marriage. i was by myself for a year after he died, and was hard but i did it. i met ex -sir-friend during that time in an astrology chat room, and would ask about astrology questions. we agreed to meet a year after hubby died. We were together as friends and him as my Dom without strings attached for 3 years the last year we didnt see each other much. I knew his ex who he loved was single again, and i walked away. i loved him that much to not make a scene and wish him luck. i was getting myself together and then everything went nuts. i almost lost my house, just everything went chaotic. i was on anti depressants for 2 wks when i met this one, and to be honest, i was just coming back into balance. I spent most of the time with him alone. so i really didnt have a relationship either. now i need to feed me what i need in life. i cannot get involved with anyone again until i get what i need completely from me. that was where i was heading prior to this Sir and am heading that way again.

I am feeling my inner strength, even through the tears. The man i loved the most is dead, but he knew I could do well on my own. I believed it too, now i need to prove it to myself. Also ex sir friend saw that in me too.

Thank you Barelynangel, i am finding my way back to me. Perhaps she wasnt gone too long:)

< Message edited by oceanwynds1 -- 10/22/2009 9:59:37 AM >

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Rationalizing red flags - 10/22/2009 10:00:33 AM   
oceanwynds1


Posts: 53
Joined: 10/20/2009
Status: offline 		DesFip
Thank you. I like that idea and will use it.

oceanwynds

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Rationalizing red flags - 10/22/2009 10:03:18 AM   
oceanwynds1


Posts: 53
Joined: 10/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

i find it preferable to do this when you're alone. i have never believed in running from one situation to the next. the more baggage you release the clearer your vision becomes. a healthier happier you also attracts the same. unlike some i don't see situations of this nature as mistakes, but life lessons. at some point you'll connect the dots and see how one led to the next and so on. but each are sending you in a direction that you control. you merely need to determine whether the outcome will be positive and fulfilling or a replication of what you've had before. it truly is yours to control. choose wisely.

porcelaine



I plan to do this alone. I normally do. I am starting to find myself and inner power again. In answering just now barelynangel i explain the sequence of events. I did learn from him some things, and i learned i am stronger then i thought. Thanks porcelaine

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Rationalizing red flags - 10/22/2009 10:15:32 AM   
oceanwynds1


Posts: 53
Joined: 10/20/2009
Status: offline 		I wanted to thank everyone who posted on this thread. Your words were taken in, and help me to find a glimpse of who i was. i am standing up now, maybe not steady, but i am standing up. I am hurting yes, but hurt never kept me down. I always been a fighter within and will make it past this. I will not get into another relationship at this time. I never believed in going from one to another. I have had many offers and been choosey, but for once my choice was faulty. But if i didnt try, how would i know:). What i am happy about is that because of this I didnt give up on my exploration of being a submissive and perhaps a slave. He saw that in me, and ex friend Sir saw the submissive in me. My marriage hubby was the dominant, though we were vanilla. I have found a peace in my submissiveness, but i dont need a partner to give it to, there are many avenues to do so.

I'm going to make it, and where i am heading will be a mystery for now. but i have a home here on cm and i am so grateful to everyone.
blessings
oceanwynds

(in reply to oceanwynds1)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Rationalizing red flags - 10/22/2009 10:46:26 AM   
sleazybutterfly


Posts: 2801
Joined: 5/15/2006
Status: offline 		I am still coming out of my marriage/ds relationship now. I say still, because we are stuck living together till the house I am renting is ready.

Am I still hurt some? Yes, of course. Will I be okay? Yes, I will, and you will be also.

Time is your friend, your best friend. It can heal a million different things if you just bask in it a bit. I am taking now to just enjoy myself, to find out what I am looking for, and to make sure I am happy with myself. I don't think I realized how much I had neglected myself over the years both physically and mentally. I am enjoying getting to know the real me again, not the me that tried to be what he wanted. It's actually quite an amazing journey and one that will only continue as I move and am able to get out, work, and enjoy time with my friends again. I think a support system is huge and I have some great friends that love me and will be there for me.

It will be the scariest thing when I step out there again and take a chance with someone, but it will happen at some point. I will be more ready mentally and physically than I have been ever in my life. I will not ever settle for anyone or any circumstance that will not fulfill my needs and desires. I am sure that doesn't sound like a slave to most, but I will be more a slave than ever in my life. I will have all parts of my life in order and I will be ready to give all of me to him.

It's easy to blame ourselves, but even the best get wrapped up in the heart and not the head. Take some time for you, and best wishes.

Anne


_____________________________

~Flutterby
~Curvylicious
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly.
Life is not a popularity contest, it's better to be hated for what you believe, than loved for a lie.

(in reply to oceanwynds1)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Rationalizing red flags - 10/22/2009 11:44:17 AM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Get a piece of paper, make two columns. One: Good things. Two: Bad things.
Under good 1) encouraged to talk to others
Under bad 1) isolated in any form

And so on. Look at every relationship you've ever had, what were the characteristics in the other person that put a smile on your face - write those down in the good column. Characteristics that made you contemplate chain saw massacre go in the bad column. The person themselves may have been neither good nor bad in intent, but the characteristics work for you in one of two ways.

I find it enormously helpful to look at it in black and white because then I can't rationalize how hot he is when I know he has every bad thing and none of the good. At that point I have to accept that I am looking for the one person worst for me.

Beyond that, how many men have you dated for several weeks in your life? It is said that we need to seriously date 24 people to really know what works for us. I haven't come anywhere near that number to know what it is about that person that does or doesn't work for me. Most of us haven't. We have one date, or one night stands or we go straight into long term. This just doesn't give us enough experience to know ourselves in a relationship, to know what does or doesn't work.

I find it helpful to write things out also.  What I have done is write retrospectively the things I can see now that were red flags then; and I write what I was thinking at the time they first appeared.  Usually I discover that I was aware at the time but didn’t listen to what I refer to as ‘my little alarm bell’ in my head.  We need to learn to trust that ‘alarm bell’ when we hear it; it is usually dead on!  And the more we practice paying attention to it the easier it becomes to trust our decisions in the future.
We’ve all done it, or most of us have, at one time or another.  And I like Bita’s advice, too, set out to prove there are many many things you can do well! 



_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Rationalizing red flags - 10/22/2009 5:04:51 PM   
oceanwynds1


Posts: 53
Joined: 10/20/2009
Status: offline 		I just wanted to take a minute to give my thanks to all. I am leaving at 5 am to fly out to Cabo, Mexico and enjoy the special occassion with my daughter...her marriage. One accomplishment that i did well is having a very close relationship with her. I am also going to leave this behind for a few days and then come back and start to use the advice given to me. It is all excellent, and i am ready to jump in and dig through to healing myself.

blessings and thanks again,
oceanwynds

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Rationalizing red flags - 10/22/2009 6:11:04 PM   
lizi


Posts: 4673
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		You're a human being. You have needs. Sometimes we fall for things that aren't healthy because it feeds something that wanted feeding. It's tempting to beat yourself up over the fact that you should have known better but everyone has these weaknesses and needs and we just don't always have control of them- or we wouldn't be human. We'd be robots. I find that it helps to dive in and look at what happened and try to figure out why. When you understand the why it won't have so much of a hold over you in the future and understanding the why helps you forgive yourself too.

When I needed help my best friend always told me to take baby steps like some others have suggested. You can't go out and conquer things in one swoop but you can take a small step towards the light and then another, and then another. If it takes time so what. As others have said, the passage of time itself helps a great deal too.

Your daughter's wedding is a perfect opportunity for several things. For you to reinforce your relationship with her. To see a new relationship begin a life's journey. For you to get some distance (literally) from your problems. To have fun! Enjoy yourself and be the great Mom that you are

(in reply to oceanwynds1)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Rationalizing red flags - 10/22/2009 6:36:24 PM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		Do what you've been doing in terms of working within and also seeking support from without.
Best wishes, and have a great time in Mexico, 
  Davan

_____________________________

May you live as long as you wish & love as long as you live
-Robert A Heinlein

It's about the person & the bond,not the bondage
-Me

Waiting is

170NZ (Aka:Sex God Du Jour) pts

Jesus,I've ALWAYS been a deviant
-Leadership527,Jeff

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Rationalizing red flags - 10/22/2009 8:33:38 PM   
Elipsis


Posts: 301
Joined: 7/8/2009
Status: offline 		Red flags are difficult when you're trying to get to know people.  On one hand you want to be able to trust people and you have to treat what they're telling you as if they are sincere or else you have no real chance of making a connection with someone if you're doubting every word that comes out of their mouth.

Alternatively, you could just operate with trust issues like I do.  It makes you less likely to get burned, and your assumptions are correct most of the time... but when someone is legitimate it sure does make you come off like a paranoid asshole.


Also you don't want to be so untrusting that you're looking for red flags.  Sometimes when someone gets burned hard enough they're so overly guarded that they'll find red flags with anyone in order to protect themselves and keep themselves out of a situation where they have to trust again.

(in reply to oceanwynds1)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Rationalizing red flags - 10/23/2009 6:49:44 AM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline 		Oh man. On a good day, I can make a serious case for love being a form of insanity.
Few people haven't been where you are at. I certainly have been there more than once, having shot right past all the red flags and warning signs caught in a tornado of hope, want, heat, lust, fantasyland, that wonderful madness of euphoria that can be a relationship.

There's an old Buddhist saying that goes "Still water becomes clear."
Time takes time. I can get so focused on what I need to do/should do/ How to I get out of this mess I've created and what is the best way to do so/ Where I went wrong/ evaluation/paralysis through analysis that I can lose track of the simple art of being.
Heal.
Visit coffee shops long missed. Take a drive in the country-watch Fall in it's wonder, laugh with an old friend, make new ones.
Fall into the tune of life, painful as it may be and let the days slowly apply their balm to fresh wounds.
One day I wake up and where there has been nothing but 100% pain for ages, now its 99%.
And slowly things become bearable and I become alive again, changed and altered by the experience in unexpected ways, no longer the person who entered the relationship but a butterfly newly emerged from the chrysalis of pain, a different, and hopefully better, person.

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 40
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