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Stop Dissing Penelope (and other Hellenic Myth-Chicks).... - 9/15/2009 8:24:34 AM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		Let me preface this little diatribe by stating that I am sure that there are few who would be much interested in discussing the fate and treatment of Penelope by history... so this will probably just end up a rant... but one must remain hopeful.. or so I have been told.

Why!

Why is  Penelope forgotten, underestimated and treated so shabbily by historians, story tellers and the god-damned History Channel?  Are they all just trying to emulate Odysseus?

I am currently, in all my spinster-nerd glory watching a series of programs on the History Channel (and certainly not their best, btw, but entertaining with some cool graphics and make up and lots of diaphanous gowns and thick greek legs...er.. side track...) and the current episode is about Odysseus.

Thus far within the entire series exploring myths, Gods and heros... only one female has been explored... of course.. Medusa... 

There are many many heroic females in classical mythology and they never make it into these programs except perhaps in some sort of ancillary bit of fluff to keep the story from being toooo homo-erotic  (there is a lot of manly man worship on the History Channel in general and in their treatment of Hellenic history/myth in particular)...

Anyhow... Penelope... she just got the briefest of treatment in this 60 minute episode... even the Lotus Eaters got more time and they are barely even mentioned in the Odyssey!

Penelope was just as smart and cunning as her husband, far more faithful, and saved his blasted kingdom for him whilst he traipsed around the known world for twenty years (true he did get side tracked a couple of times against his efforts to return, but really...did he have to go all kleos on the Cyclops's ass and shout out his name like a dare to Poseidon??)!

So er... the point of my tirade?  Anyone else out there have a passion for Greek Myth and Legend and have any thoughts on perpetually forgotten Penelope (or any of the other chicks who got dissed?  Atlanta, perhaps?)

Bad on you History Channel!

I expect this thread to last exactly 17 minutes....well maybe a bit less…

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta
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RE: Stop Dissing Penelope (and other Hellenic Myth-Chic... - 9/15/2009 8:27:33 AM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		Strangely, I feel much better now.. perhaps I will write to the History Channel and see if they can't do a program or two about women who were not spineless victims (or totally victims, there is only so much you can do against a God.. especially horny Zeus) or cursed Gorgons and could rock a sheet with panache? 

Probably won't get anywhere... lol

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

(in reply to puella)
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RE: Stop Dissing Penelope (and other Hellenic Myth-Chic... - 9/15/2009 8:49:16 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline 		Puella,

I think that you will find the Penelope story in a lot of popular culture.  Much like you will find the Medea story. 

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: Stop Dissing Penelope (and other Hellenic Myth-Chic... - 9/15/2009 9:08:02 AM   
puella


Posts: 2457
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Status: offline 		I don't know... you would see an episode about Medea somewhere on some nerdy channel, if only because she killed her kids and what could be more horrifying/gripping than a crazy baby killing chick...

Penelope didn't do anything wrong and wasn't bagged by Zeus in some strange guise so she sort of just gets brushed aside, in my opinion...  though Margaret Atwood did a really cool retellling of that part of the Odyssey in the cannongate myth series:  the Penelopiad.  Interesting take on it.

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

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RE: Stop Dissing Penelope (and other Hellenic Myth-Chic... - 9/15/2009 9:44:48 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		History was written by men, for men.  Look at all those wars, the odysseys, the quests, ect fought for religion, or country.  Men.. going off to war while women stayed home and defended the castle.  Now.. if that woman was entertaining a god between her legs it becomes fascinating to historians.  Or, if she takes on cock after cock in a contest it becomes thrilling.  At best if a woman was to make the books she could be beautiful enough to be the excuse for war.  I wonder why no one questioned how hearth and home stayed together when the men were away for years on end.

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RE: Stop Dissing Penelope (and other Hellenic Myth-Chic... - 9/15/2009 9:46:38 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Margaret Atwood did a really cool retellling of that part of the Odyssey in the cannongate myth series:  the Penelopiad. 


I've been toying with getting it. Do you need to have read the Odyssey first?

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No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Stop Dissing Penelope (and other Hellenic Myth-Chic... - 9/15/2009 9:47:54 AM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		Well, that was sort of what I was trying to get at... it is the job/fetish of historians and philosophers and random academia to question, probe, delve more deeply into those bits we are left... and I have just been frustrated with the treatment of certain aspects of that probing..woah now that could be misinterpreted!! lol

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

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RE: Stop Dissing Penelope (and other Hellenic Myth-Chic... - 9/15/2009 11:15:29 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

I don't know... you would see an episode about Medea somewhere on some nerdy channel, if only because she killed her kids and what could be more horrifying/gripping than a crazy baby killing chick...


Off the top of my head. . . The Joy Luck Club

quote:

Penelope didn't do anything wrong and wasn't bagged by Zeus in some strange guise so she sort of just gets brushed aside, in my opinion...  though Margaret Atwood did a really cool retellling of that part of the Odyssey in the cannongate myth series:  the Penelopiad.  Interesting take on it.


Again. . . off the top of my head. . . Soap Operas.  Okay. . . it has been YEARS since I have seen one (my great-grandmother used to watch them) but as I recall there were often plot lines about the guy being dead, the gal waiting and waiting, and then lo and behold, he would walk back in the door because it was really a car-jacker that got burned up in the accident. 


Those are just two quick examples of myths in popular culture. 

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to puella)
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RE: Stop Dissing Penelope (and other Hellenic Myth-Chic... - 9/15/2009 11:19:40 AM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		I know I am being shallow... but I absolutely refuse to equate the Odyssey with the Young and the Restless... ;)

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

(in reply to Aylee)
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RE: Stop Dissing Penelope (and other Hellenic Myth-Chic... - 9/15/2009 11:38:33 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

I know I am being shallow... but I absolutely refuse to equate the Odyssey with the Young and the Restless... ;)


[greek geek mode on]

...speaking as someone whose thesis was on greek literature.......

...i have to disagree. Things like the Illiad and the Odyssey provided their culture with the memes they used to understand it. Modern soap opera fill a similar function.

[greek geek mode off]


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RE: Stop Dissing Penelope (and other Hellenic Myth-Chic... - 9/15/2009 11:50:46 AM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		hehe I didn't say I was right, I just refused on principle. ;)

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

(in reply to philosophy)
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RE: Stop Dissing Penelope (and other Hellenic Myth-Chic... - 9/15/2009 3:10:25 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		Interesting.  I'm thinking of females from Greek mythology off the top of my head and they don't look so good...

Sirens - nasty.
Harpies - nasty.
Gorgons - nasty.
Pasiphae - weird.
Andromeda - victim.
Medea - homicidal crazy bitch.
Persephone - victim.
Circe - enchantress with a nasty side.
Hera - jealous bitch.  I have to wonder if she's frigid.
Helen of Troy - victim, although not strongly depicted.


Positive role models:

Athena - smart girl.
Diana - huntress.
Penelope - as above.
Aphrodite - seems to be a happy woman.  Likely a Fertility Goddess absorbed into the Greek pantheon.
Demeter - obviously an Earth Goddess absorbed into the Greek pantheon.
The Muses

And I consider the Fates to be essentially neutral.

I agree, puella.  The negative ones outnumber the positives.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: Stop Dissing Penelope (and other Hellenic Myth-Chic... - 9/15/2009 4:46:18 PM   
mefisto69


Posts: 370
Joined: 1/19/2007
Status: offline 		well. the 'cult of Mary' is under the jack boot of - guess who? the men of the catholic church...... she was allegedly more revered than her son. in more recent history, who knows about the first female genius of the Americas? Juana Inez de la Cruz... again - crushed by the catholic church. i'm sure a few of you have heard about the mexican painter Frida Kahlo..... but who of you know the incomparable 20th century Chilean poet: Gabriela Mistral ? there are thousands of women that have excelled in all walks of life that are pushed into oblivion because of the hubris of men.

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RE: Stop Dissing Penelope (and other Hellenic Myth-Chic... - 9/15/2009 5:58:16 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Dissed?

Penelope

In the pathway of the sun,
In the footsteps of the breeze,
Where the world and sky are one,
He shall ride the silver seas,
He shall cut the glittering wave.
I shall sit at home, and rock;
Rise, to heed a neighbor's knock;
Brew my tea, and snip my thread;
Bleach the linen for my bed.
They will call him brave.

Dorothy Parker



Penelope

The suitors sinn'd, but with a fair excuse,
Whom all this elegance might well seduce;
Nor can our censure on the husband fall,
Who, for a wife so lovely, slew them all.

William Cowper

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RE: Stop Dissing Penelope (and other Hellenic Myth-Chic... - 9/15/2009 6:47:19 PM   
thornhappy


Posts: 8596
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Interesting.  I'm thinking of females from Greek mythology off the top of my head and they don't look so good...

Sirens - nasty.
Harpies - nasty.
Gorgons - nasty.
Pasiphae - weird.
Andromeda - victim.
Medea - homicidal crazy bitch.
Persephone - victim.
Circe - enchantress with a nasty side.
Hera - jealous bitch.  I have to wonder if she's frigid.
Helen of Troy - victim, although not strongly depicted.


Positive role models:

Athena - smart girl.
Diana - huntress.
Penelope - as above.
Aphrodite - seems to be a happy woman.  Likely a Fertility Goddess absorbed into the Greek pantheon.
Demeter - obviously an Earth Goddess absorbed into the Greek pantheon.
The Muses

And I consider the Fates to be essentially neutral.

I agree, puella.  The negative ones outnumber the positives.


Jeez, folks.  You keep forgetting about Lysistrata!

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RE: Stop Dissing Penelope (and other Hellenic Myth-Chic... - 9/15/2009 8:31:07 PM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		Atlanta, Semele, Perseus's mom (I forgot her name) the chick who helped whats his ass out of the Labrynth

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

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RE: Stop Dissing Penelope (and other Hellenic Myth-Chic... - 9/15/2009 8:34:38 PM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		Ariadne, sorry!

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

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RE: Stop Dissing Penelope (and other Hellenic Myth-Chic... - 9/16/2009 6:16:42 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

Atlanta, Semele, Perseus's mom (I forgot her name) the chick who helped whats his ass out of the Labrynth


Theseus was the fellow who escaped the labyrinth.  Both Ariadne and Medea were betrayed women that turned murderous.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to puella)
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RE: Stop Dissing Penelope (and other Hellenic Myth-Chic... - 9/16/2009 8:44:48 AM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		Ariadne didn't kill anyone, she saved Theseus from the minotaur (the string the string)

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

(in reply to DarkSteven)
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RE: Stop Dissing Penelope (and other Hellenic Myth-Chic... - 9/16/2009 8:34:46 PM   
manxcat


Posts: 673
Joined: 10/3/2008
Status: offline 		Penelope got dissed because after all her hard work and loyalty (hard working and loyal are what the name means) keeping his kingdom, Odyseus left home again immediately, I presume because she was a Dominant Bitch.  At least that is what I have always told people

-Penelope




_____________________________

The television, that insidious beast, that Medusa which freezes a
billion people to stone every night, staring fixedly,
that Siren which called and sang and promised so much and gave, after all, so little.
Ray Bradbury


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