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The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/13/2009 9:31:05 PM   
LordDarkPleasure


Posts: 91
Joined: 4/26/2005
Status: offline 		This is a pattern that I observed in 2 of my relationships, and I would like your opinion on the subject.  I am a Dom, that is undeniable in my character.  But I also have a strong fear of using this Dominant trait on a submissive in a way that would actually lead to a non-consentual scene, so when I am in doubt about something I will just not do it.

I also want to make sure that both partners enjoy whatever we do, and so if my partner tells me that she does not enjoy something, I will just do it less often, or even not do it.

Now here's the problem:  at first we try things and I actually have a much larger range of activities available because the girl is willing to do them to please me, and because she isn't aware of my personnal rules.  As time passes and we know each other more, I refrain from doing more and more things that she claims to dislike, to the point where the girl will, consciously or not, abuse this personnal rule to the point that boredom kicks in.  How can I avoid or get out of this pattern?

Another related question:  Dom wants to scene, sub doesn't.  But sub also needs wants to feel the partner's Dominance to want to scene.  Where do you draw the line between forcing the sub and just being Dominant? how can you tell if you went too far or not?

Just to clarify I am talking about a Dom/sub relationship, not a Master/slave.  While I have a lot of power she has a say in things, and we both wouldn't have it otherwise.

< Message edited by LordDarkPleasure -- 9/13/2009 9:50:50 PM >
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RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/13/2009 9:48:08 PM   
pompeii


Posts: 934
Joined: 1/4/2007
From: Silicon Valley, San Jose, California
Status: offline 		You've summarized my feelings exactly! It's a delicate balance. One we're always adjusting, and it has hysteresis so it's not a cut-and-dried answer for all. I'll be interested in how others handle the balance between topping and forcing ... (where it's in that delicate gray zone) ... 

(in reply to LordDarkPleasure)
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RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/13/2009 10:41:50 PM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		Interesting...I'm generally willing to do and try more with time and trust so this is the opposite of the way I standardly behave in a relationship. 
I also favor an undercurrent of dynamics rather than a constant in-your-face sort of dynamic. 
Perhaps you simply are not finding partners with similar styles to your own and you're allowing some other criteria to cloud your initial impression of compatibility? 
I am not sure of the total number of your relationships, so I am uncertain how much weight to give to the two relationships that you cited. 
  Davan


_____________________________

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RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/13/2009 11:00:28 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LordDarkPleasure

Now here's the problem:  at first we try things and I actually have a much larger range of activities available because the girl is willing to do them to please me, and because she isn't aware of my personnal rules.  As time passes and we know each other more, I refrain from doing more and more things that she claims to dislike, to the point where the girl will, consciously or not, abuse this personnal rule to the point that boredom kicks in.  How can I avoid or get out of this pattern?

You make sure it is clear you are in control of the decisions. you also make clear that you want all pertinent information to be made available that would be of importance in you making the decisions you think are adequate.

Once those are in place, either she accept your capacity for decision-making across the board or she think you're making an erroneous judgment...at which point the nucleus of the power exchange dynamic is lost. At that point it falls on being openly communicative that there is a clear discrepancy between compatibilities and expectations and that if you cannot function under the parameters set forth, then the entire dynamic may as well be discarded.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LordDarkPleasure

Another related question:  Dom wants to scene, sub doesn't.  But sub also needs wants to feel the partner's Dominance to want to scene.  Where do you draw the line between forcing the sub and just being Dominant? how can you tell if you went too far or not?

You went to far if, in retrospect, the sub/slave feels you violated a limit (one previously discussed or one that was just made up). I personally draw a big distinction between refusal out of convenience and refusal out of actually being compromised in the ability to perform.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LordDarkPleasure

Just to clarify I am talking about a Dom/sub relationship, not a Master/slave.  While I have a lot of power she has a say in things, and we both wouldn't have it otherwise.

If that is the sort of thing you wish.


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I know they're all insane
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RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/13/2009 11:44:40 PM   
theRose4U


Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LordDarkPleasure

This is a pattern that I observed in 2 of my relationships, and I would like your opinion on the subject.  I am a Dom, that is undeniable in my character.  But I also have a strong fear of using this Dominant trait on a submissive in a way that would actually lead to a non-consentual scene, so when I am in doubt about something I will just not do it.

I also want to make sure that both partners enjoy whatever we do, and so if my partner tells me that she does not enjoy something, I will just do it less often, or even not do it.

Now here's the problem:  at first we try things and I actually have a much larger range of activities available because the girl is willing to do them to please me, and because she isn't aware of my personnal rules.  As time passes and we know each other more, I refrain from doing more and more things that she claims to dislike, to the point where the girl will, consciously or not, abuse this personnal rule to the point that boredom kicks in.  How can I avoid or get out of this pattern?

Another related question:  Dom wants to scene, sub doesn't.  But sub also needs wants to feel the partner's Dominance to want to scene.  Where do you draw the line between forcing the sub and just being Dominant? how can you tell if you went too far or not?

Just to clarify I am talking about a Dom/sub relationship, not a Master/slave.  While I have a lot of power she has a say in things, and we both wouldn't have it otherwise.


First thought is WHY would a sub not know your rules? know what you like? know where your own limits are? FROM THE BEGINNING?
It sounds like you're painting yourself into a corner by not putting your cards on the table in the beginning which is leading to a top from the bottom scenario. You're not doing things because she doesn't like them??? Wrong foot!

Discuss limits in the beginning and test them. Half the fun is finding out where the walls truely are with your partner. Many things that people say they wouldn't want or like yet havent' tried end up as things they now can't do without. If humiliation is something that's on the table hearing the whine "but I don't want to" is an ample opportunity to pull out the big boy boots and remind them where their place is. By backing down you're doing yourself, your sub and ultimately your relationship a dis-service by not stepping up and being the dominant.
That being said the line between dominance and abuse is simple...consent. This isn't something that's situational and able to change with the subs mood. While their emotional state is important, you should already have a framework of appropriate behavior and expectations that were set up in the very beginning. By not reinforcing the rules with the preset punishments you can actually lose control of the entire dynamic.
A sub needs to provide all pertinant information so that YOU can make the best decision in a situation. There are times when "do what I say because I said so" actually is an appropriate answer. If your sub is ill or injured for example "their duty" is to do what you say and not whine about what they want to do which may cauise them additional harm. By definition you're forcing them to do what you say because it's for their own good. There are times where forcing our desires is not only more beneficial in the long run, but also strengthens the bond because the sub can see that you really are prepared to step up and demand their best and protect them from the worst.
While the lines between consent, forcing and abuse can sometimes be grey it's the framework your relationship was built on and open communication that keep you on track. If they can't trust that framework, how are they supposed to trust you to know what's best?

_____________________________

Finding a good sub is like sifting through trail mix. You find a few fruits, a lotta nuts and have to sift to get to the sweet and special ones
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RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/14/2009 12:25:54 AM   
LordDarkPleasure


Posts: 91
Joined: 4/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U

First thought is WHY would a sub not know your rules? know what you like? know where your own limits are? FROM THE BEGINNING?
It sounds like you're painting yourself into a corner by not putting your cards on the table in the beginning which is leading to a top from the bottom scenario. You're not doing things because she doesn't like them??? Wrong foot!



Not really, but I can see how you came to those conclusions with my post.  I left out some info to keep things general which could have been misleading.

quote:


Discuss limits in the beginning and test them. Half the fun is finding out where the walls truely are with your partner. Many things that people say they wouldn't want or like yet havent' tried end up as things they now can't do without. If humiliation is something that's on the table hearing the whine "but I don't want to" is an ample opportunity to pull out the big boy boots and remind them where their place is. By backing down you're doing yourself, your sub and ultimately your relationship a dis-service by not stepping up and being the dominant.
That being said the line between dominance and abuse is simple...consent. This isn't something that's situational and able to change with the subs mood. While their emotional state is important, you should already have a framework of appropriate behavior and expectations that were set up in the very beginning. By not reinforcing the rules with the preset punishments you can actually lose control of the entire dynamic.
A sub needs to provide all pertinant information so that YOU can make the best decision in a situation. There are times when "do what I say because I said so" actually is an appropriate answer. If your sub is ill or injured for example "their duty" is to do what you say and not whine about what they want to do which may cauise them additional harm. By definition you're forcing them to do what you say because it's for their own good. There are times where forcing our desires is not only more beneficial in the long run, but also strengthens the bond because the sub can see that you really are prepared to step up and demand their best and protect them from the worst.
While the lines between consent, forcing and abuse can sometimes be grey it's the framework your relationship was built on and open communication that keep you on track. If they can't trust that framework, how are they supposed to trust you to know what's best?


You brought up a few important concepts I'll need to think about, namely the framework and preset punishment parts. 

You also made me realize that the "do what I said because I said so" part I have no problem doing it when necessary outside of the bedroom, and I am actually very good at taking the right decisions.  It is in the more intimate settings that things aren't as simple for me, where couldn't forgive myself for crossing a line even if its not willingly.  In that setting I am basically looking for a way to better gauge how far in the grey area I can probe, and when its better to stop.

I suppose that as usual the ultimate solution is more communication, but you gave some interesting things to think about and I thank you.

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RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/14/2009 1:39:52 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline 		It is indeed a delicate balance

For me it is a constant game... looking for a way into the other person... trying to read Him as good as i can so i can give Him what He needs so He will give me what i need.

And not everything needs to be talked about, and no rules are set in stone for us

There are things i do not particularly like... or not particularly like to start with... but if He plays me well, then He can get me to do anything really... 
also i like to be co-hearsed or corrupted into doing things which might mean it is more work for Him to get me ready... more pushing required...  the whole thing feels more dangerous, like edge play, because indeed it could fall flat if i can not get into the right mindset... nevertheless, for Him to want me a certain way and taking the time to seduce me into doing these depraved things is very sexy

Same for Him... i might have ideas that He is not particularly enthusiastic about, but if i go about it slowly and skilfully... i can get Him to try and even like certain activities...

i take risks and try my best to keep the boredom out... as boredom is a killer... i rather recover from a risk gone wrong than getting stuck in a boring depression.

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RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/14/2009 1:42:46 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		i.i agree that there is a possibility that you maybe havent met youre match in terms of BDSM yet, its also possible that you are giving too much leeway to the sub and that is affecting her submission to you.  ideally you need to find a sub that 'gets' the whole Ds thing and doesnt need you to keep pushing her.  ideally she should be wired to please you but we are all human and sometimes we need that push/directive/expectation/no escape get on with it thingy - its actually quite hot.

you know what, i think you should just talk to her and tell her why it isnt working for you.  be that honest, if she can see that her reluctance and resistance is actually wrecking the whole thing for you she might turn it around.

if its that youre approaching a new relationship and dont want this to repeat then id take a slightly firmer stance on things.  dont forget subs need and like firm directives, it gives them boundaries and stuff.

i have to admit i find Ds a harder dynamic to settle into.  its on then its off, is it on is it off, fuck, i never knew.  so you have that too.  that ambivilance can make the switch from vanilla to Ds difficult for a sub if her D isnt quite firm and clear about how it is.

i think also you shouldnt stick to Ds protocol just because youre in a Ds relationship.  i think it should be more than possible to say to a new prospective sub 'there are things we will discuss and youll have youre say, but there will be times when i will listen to youre thoughts and make up my own mind'  if you start a scene or a Ds time by saying, this is one of those times when my decision sticks, youres doesnt, then she knows and she cant wail about it because she agreed from the start, if she does and continues to then she is taking the P, not respecting you or the relationship and then you have to ask youreself what you have there, a kinky vanilla or a woman doing her best to be youre sub.

< Message edited by lally2 -- 9/14/2009 1:45:15 AM >

_____________________________

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RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/14/2009 6:15:24 AM   
cpK69


Posts: 1593
Joined: 5/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LordDarkPleasure

As time passes and we know each other more, I refrain from doing more and more things that she claims to dislike, to the point where the girl will, consciously or not, abuse this personnal rule to the point that boredom kicks in.  How can I avoid or get out of this pattern?



This may be way too simple of an answer; however, it is what struck me as an initial issue.

Start taking responsibility for your choices, then maybe it will be easier to hold her to hers.

Kim


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RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/14/2009 6:20:51 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LordDarkPleasure


.

Now here's the problem:  at first we try things and I actually have a much larger range of activities available because the girl is willing to do them to please me, and because she isn't aware of my personnal rules.  As time passes and we know each other more, I refrain from doing more and more things that she claims to dislike, to the point where the girl will, consciously or not, abuse this personnal rule to the point that boredom kicks in.  How can I avoid or get out of this pattern?

Another related question:  Dom wants to scene, sub doesn't.  But sub also needs wants to feel the partner's Dominance to want to scene.  Where do you draw the line between forcing the sub and just being Dominant? how can you tell if you went too far or not?

Just to clarify I am talking about a Dom/sub relationship, not a Master/slave.  While I have a lot of power she has a say in things, and we both wouldn't have it otherwise.


Hi LordDarkPleasure and ty for starting this post

There are so many ways I could read this and perhaps I am reading it wrongly because of what Steve and me have been through. If I am not wrong then I can relate very strongly to what your saying.

When I first got with Steve I was into everything he was. I never at any time did something just to please him as far as the physical side was concerned. I thought of myself as a bit of a hardcore masochistic bitch but what I came to realize after a period of time was that his way was perhaps more sadistic and much more off the cuff (spontaneous) than anything I had ever experienced and that pure sadism and spontaneity often had my nerves on edge ( even though by this time I totally trusted him). Bit by bit I started to become a 'Not tonight Josephine' type of woman!
I was hugely conscious of this and constantly questioned myself about it. We also talked together about it and spoke about crossing those gray areas.
The thing is I very much wanted him to cross those gray areas. If I said no then I wanted him to make his own decisions on that and take me regardless of what I said. I was throwing a risky responsibility his way and the only way we could do this safely was to set a safe word firmly in stone.... Only that would stop whatever was going on.
He sometimes finds me saying 'No' and if he is in the mood he does it anyway! I have never yet safeworded. Sometimes I fight, beg, scream and sob like a pathetic child but these days it just seems to make him all the more determined.

I am so glad that we talked in depth about this. I am so glad that he is not too nervous to step into that gray area and be so bloody ruthless! and when I think about those particular times I recall them as the hottest in all the things we do because (and we both agree) it feels much more real.

It is a risky thing and not something you can do unless you can talk in depth with your partner about it and so my advice would be
to talk to her and keep on talking.


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RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/14/2009 7:02:42 AM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		It is up to you to be creative in your scenes, your sub should have some input as I am sure you would like them to be enjoyable for her as well. Boredom sets in when the creative juices don't flow due to stress or just plain being out of ideas. Perhaps by sitting down and brain storming with her you can come up with some new ideas for your play time. I would not encourage you to try and force her to cross boundardies that could be detrimental to her and your relationship. Test the waters sure, but drown her in them? No, I wouldn't advise going that route.

You can be dominant without forcing her into a scene that she may consider a hard limit. Be creative you can come up with something that both of you enjoy. Although I will say that some Dominants do feed on "forcing" their subs/slaves into doing things they would not normally do. It is a big power rush for them and some just thrive on that rush not the relationship itself. Hence why many of those relationships can be short lived.

Good luck,
~Lashra

_____________________________

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RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/14/2009 7:22:41 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra


You can be dominant without forcing her into a scene that she may consider a hard limit. Be creative you can come up with something that both of you enjoy. Although I will say that some Dominants do feed on "forcing" their subs/slaves into doing things they would not normally do. It is a big power rush for them and some just thrive on that rush not the relationship itself. Hence why many of those relationships can be short lived.

Good luck,
~Lashra





Taking anyone into a hard limit area is risky business and not one I would ever recommend. On the other hand forcing a sub can and often is consensual force (something agreed on back at some space in time) and nothing to do with hard limits.
Steve for example would never cross a hard limit but is known to force me on other things. In my opinion there is a world of difference.
I love the power rush and yet I can thrive on that as an integrated part of our relationship.
I think all of this involves a huge amount of psychology.
It takes a lot of understanding oneself and ones partner and when that happens successfully, many couples that thrive the rush go on to have long and successful relationships.


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RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/14/2009 7:44:05 AM   
Acer49


Posts: 1434
Joined: 8/7/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LordDarkPleasure

This is a pattern that I observed in 2 of my relationships, and I would like your opinion on the subject.  I am a Dom, that is undeniable in my character.  But I also have a strong fear of using this Dominant trait on a submissive in a way that would actually lead to a non-consentual scene, so when I am in doubt about something I will just not do it.

I also want to make sure that both partners enjoy whatever we do, and so if my partner tells me that she does not enjoy something, I will just do it less often, or even not do it.

Now here's the problem:  at first we try things and I actually have a much larger range of activities available because the girl is willing to do them to please me, and because she isn't aware of my personnal rules.  As time passes and we know each other more, I refrain from doing more and more things that she claims to dislike, to the point where the girl will, consciously or not, abuse this personnal rule to the point that boredom kicks in.  How can I avoid or get out of this pattern?

Another related question:  Dom wants to scene, sub doesn't.  But sub also needs wants to feel the partner's Dominance to want to scene.  Where do you draw the line between forcing the sub and just being Dominant? how can you tell if you went too far or not?

Just to clarify I am talking about a Dom/sub relationship, not a Master/slave.  While I have a lot of power she has a say in things, and we both wouldn't have it otherwise.



Well, if you feel at anytime something is becoming no consensual… STOP, DO NOT PASS GO, DO NOT COLLECT 200 DOLLARS

As far as your partner not really liking something; while it is noble that you acknowledge her feelings and are willing to sacrifice your pleasure for her dislikes, it is not always necessary to deny yourself.
You can do whatever it is you desire, she is allowed to show you her devotion by submitting to the activity; and then you acknowledge that you know that she was not all that crazy about it, then possibly, reward her in someway.
I think that you may also wish to consider letting other party know about your feelings before you start playing



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(in reply to LordDarkPleasure)
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RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/14/2009 8:17:21 AM   
rideemwet


Posts: 93
Joined: 6/12/2009
Status: offline 		It is certainly a fine line, and rather fuzzy at that.  I can understand the issue, I have my own concerns about getting into non-consensual play, and tend to progress fairly slowly rather than leaping suddenly into new territory with someone. My opinions:

First thing that occurs to me is to find out if your sub in question actually dislikes something or is just trying to push you into acting more dominant in retaliation.  That's not necessarily the best approach but it happens, and not necessarily consciously on her part.  Talking is one way of approaching it.

Second thing that occurs to me is that it is not completely black and white.   Lots of interactions with people involving doing something we occasionally dislike at least at some level.   Is the trade-off/reward worth it?  "Dislike" is a lot different than hard limit.  Its admirable to want to avoid a non-consensual scene, but disliking something isn't put it completely off limits.  My feeling is that the Dominant is responsible for balancing those likes/dislikes.  If she doesn't like your balance than you're not compatible.  If you're letting her dictate the balance then you're surrendering control. 

A term that I've often used in conversation with a sub that covers  both cases is "pushing".  Its way of identifying that middle ground that doesn't quite get to non-consensual behavior, but does encourage activity that would otherwise naturally occur.  In the first case, is she trying to push you into being more dominant? (Maybe, maybe not).   In the second case, you may occasionally need to consciously push your mutual limits a bit.  I'm not talking about hard limits, I'm talking about the expanding slightly on the normal range of activity, taking it in new directions, etc.  Mix things in with things that you know she likes and you can make her comfortable with a lot given some time and effort.  You may discover certain directions are off-limits (how else are hard limits discovered!).  You may find other directions that she actually, to her surprise, likes.  


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RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/14/2009 8:32:17 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		When I feel submissive toward someone, (my Master and my previous boyfriend/Dominant of 3 years), I enjoy doing things I physically and emotionally dislike, to please him. I actively enjoy a bit of "forced" type of play - not hard limits, but rising to the challenge of doing something for him, and a bit of physical resistance (sometimes playfighting, sometimes genuine). I *want* to be able to do things he enjoys, but that are hard for me. I *want* to surrender more of myself, and express and deepen my trust in doing so. My previous Dominant felt that I wasn't expressing submission unless I was willing to take things I *disliked*, after all, having things done to you that you enjoy is pretty standard! He liked making me beg him to stop/tap out multiple times in one evening. It can lead to *very* mixed feelings, and once in a rare while, I've pushed myself a smidge too far (he would have backed off if I had safeworded, but I was trying to please by taking it). He noticed my distress, and we were mostly able to back off and then build back up to it.

If you're going to go in that direction, though, it's best to mix it with things she does like, make sure you're aware of her body language so you can read if she needs you to back off and can't coherently say so, and ways to play with that line without crossing it. Mixing something she dislikes with something she loves, or doing it lightly enough that it's within her pain tolerance (if only barely) is best. Hard limits aren't something to try to change or renegotiate during a scene - they're best discussed at other times, if at all. Personally, I have very few *hard* limits, my limits are generally more of degree/intensity than kind. Almost any toy or technique can be done in a way I'll love or hate, depending on how warmed up I am, how much intensity they apply, how they go about it.

Usually I'm up for BDSM play and other stuff unless I'm sick or so exhausted I can barely keep my eyes open, so that particular aspect hasn't come up a lot. Generally, seducing her into it and starting *doing* gentler stuff rather than asking flat out, "Can I tie you up and hit you tonight?" is sexier. You can start out with a massage and gradually work in some biting, hair pulling, stretching and restraining her into various positions, and then escalate into the S/M and bondage aspects.

Physical punishment put me in a very bad headspace when I tried it with my previous dominant (he only did so twice in three years). I'm enough of a masochist that I enjoyed what he was doing, but felt guilty because I wasn't supposed to, and it really messed with my head in subsequent scenes for a couple of weeks, since I continued to feel guilty and upset about enjoying him hurting me. By punishment, do you mean you're actually upset at something she is doing, and endeavouring to correct her, or do you just mean "play punishment" (S/M with a bit of roleplay)?

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RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/14/2009 8:32:22 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		I can see the awkward position you're in. It's one of the tricky areas when you have that type of D/s.

If M was overly concerned about whether I *liked* any particular activities and stopped doing them, it would ruin our relationship. I'm *forced* to do quite a few things that I don't want to but if he didn't *force* me , the relationship balance would be ground down. I'd be disappointed on a different level if he didn't just go right ahead and ignore my *noooo*, ignore my crying, ignore my reluctance and insist. I might not want to, I might not like it , I might, in fact hate it ............. but I'd hate it in a far more damaging way if he didn't, because I'd lose what I originally asked for.

I realise that it's easy to say this when you're with someone that has known you for many years and knows fully that there is no resentment. When it comes to this type of grey area it IS a risk, but it is a calculated one when you know the person well enough.

allthatjazz said...

The thing is I very much wanted him to cross those gray areas. If I said no then I wanted him to make his own decisions on that and take me regardless of what I said. I was throwing a risky responsibility his way and the only way we could do this safely was to set a safe word firmly in stone.... Only that would stop whatever was going on.
He sometimes finds me saying 'No' and if he is in the mood he does it anyway! I have never yet safeworded. Sometimes I fight, beg, scream and sob like a pathetic child but these days it just seems to make him all the more determined.

...I might WANT to tie his hands at the time, but if I succeeded, I'd destroy the very thing I wanted and still want. Basically, I might not want to do all sorts of things, might not feel like it , might be stressed occasionally because of it....but I can't have it ALL ways.

The danger is that your sub may end up with what she wants *in the moment* and lose what she wants in the long run. There are an awful lot of dichotomies.

agirl


(in reply to LordDarkPleasure)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/14/2009 9:37:25 AM   
Falkenstein


Posts: 187
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline 		LordDarkPleasure,

you could have spoken from my mind too.

I also see the difficulty, especially with women who are not already completly in D/s. In the past, I have not pushed directly or try to force or tried to convince by rethoric tricks. However, I stated that it really meant something to me, that this position was perhaps just kneeling for her, but for me, it was a hell of a lot more. Was it emotional blackmail? Perhaps.

In some way your current situation is unfair for the girl, because she does not know that she is sinking her relationship with you for something she could well possibly trade away without a second thought.

I wish you in any case good luck!

Henry

_____________________________

Henry,

Part of that power which still
Produceth good, whilst ever scheming ill.

(in reply to LordDarkPleasure)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/14/2009 10:14:53 AM   
theRose4U


Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

where couldn't forgive myself for crossing a line even if its not willingly.  In that setting I am basically looking for a way to better gauge how far in the grey area I can probe, and when its better to stop.


This is where a technique best described as tap, swat, whack can be applied. With ANYTHING start gently and with control (tap, tap, tap) once you receive the response you want you can increase pressure, speed, etc A LITTLE BIT until you hit a more medium swat. Personally I get more response with a medium pressure and varying speed up slow down speed than I do with a more controlled fast WHACK with most implements (though this does have it's exception like teacher/student play).
Checking in with your partner is part of the job. Guaging speed, pressure, how their body responds and taking into account any medical conditions are a major part of the responsibility of having a pet of your own. Everyone hits sub-space in different degrees and may not be able to say their safe word because of the mental disconnect.
This may be the part that you don't realize yet? Just because she isn't saying STOP doesn't mean that you can keep going, just as much as more more more doesn't necessarily mean they should get more for their own well being.

Caring for your toys doesn't make you less dominant but it does lead to the exact questions you are asking. Like why do I take such pleasure in causing pain to someone I care about? How do I know when enough is enough? These are where mentors, seminars and even a local munch is helpful. You are able to talk to people that have done this longer, are experienced with things you want to try, and can walk you through some of the "if I knew then what I know now" pitfalls of WIITWD.

_____________________________

Finding a good sub is like sifting through trail mix. You find a few fruits, a lotta nuts and have to sift to get to the sweet and special ones
drama llama

(in reply to LordDarkPleasure)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/14/2009 10:19:33 AM   
theRose4U


Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: LordDarkPleasure

As time passes and we know each other more, I refrain from doing more and more things that she claims to dislike, to the point where the girl will, consciously or not, abuse this personnal rule to the point that boredom kicks in.  How can I avoid or get out of this pattern?



This may be way too simple of an answer; however, it is what struck me as an initial issue.

Start taking responsibility for your choices, then maybe it will be easier to hold her to hers.

Kim


very well said!!!

_____________________________

Finding a good sub is like sifting through trail mix. You find a few fruits, a lotta nuts and have to sift to get to the sweet and special ones
drama llama

(in reply to cpK69)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/14/2009 10:33:58 AM   
masterlink65


Posts: 683
Joined: 11/3/2007
Status: offline 		this is why interview for compatibility is important. setting limits and dynamics before going into the playroom or bedroom. chatroom to playroom? not a good idea always

sometimes displaying/enforcing your dominance requires being forceful.

(in reply to LordDarkPleasure)
Profile   Post #: 20
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