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RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/15/2009 11:24:35 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		Perfectly stated agirl. And, of course, my viewpoints are my own and not particularly relevant to others.

But I agree that because of the way I initially shaped the authority dynamic, her "no" and yours don't mean the same thing. For her, the only "no" she has is "No, I don't want to be your slave anymore". That, however, is tempered HEAVILY by the fact that I love her. While she never says "no" for herself, I do so on her behalf when needed. In the example jaz gave, I would've seen her mounting distress long before SHE got to the point of needing to take off her collar.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/15/2009 11:36:38 AM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		Yup, yup! That is why I have never needed or said no. My partner knows when enough is enough, when my best has been given. Then he can say, no more, good girl.

lovingpet

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/15/2009 6:46:18 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
Yup, I understand. I just dislike the imprecision of the term "forced" when addressing a real life issue (as opposed to a fantasy thing) because... well... it's not real. I dislike "forced" about as much as "consensual non-consent" and for the same reasons.

To me, "consensual non-consent" is more about role-play that *needs* a safeword. Rape-play, begging him to stop when I don't really want or need him to, take-down/physical resistance play, stuff like that, where "no", "don't" and "stop" mean "No, don't stop!" I have a hard time doing the verbal part of that unless he's doing something I actually dislike and *would* prefer him to stop - it feels more real that way. Perhaps "forceful" is a better term than just "force," but sometimes, I'm really struggling to handle something that he wants.

In Maria's scenario, I've had similar situations in the past. Sometimes, a particular kind of play pushes my buttons in a negative way, and continues to be a problem for me for a week or two until I've had one or more positive experiences with it. We have to push through tears and other actually negative emotions at times, but once we're out the other side, I'm able to enjoy it again. I don't like that kind of scene very much, but I prefer it to holding off, since it seems to escalate and affect the rest of our relationship very quickly, even if we avoid it.



(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/16/2009 12:00:58 AM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		Getting back to the OP, I'm very much aligned with loving pet in that I don't believe it's submission until there is a willingness to "pay the cost", by which I mean being prepared to be out of their comfort zone at least some of the time. If a "sub" is only ever serving or being played with in ways that they like/enjoy/are comfortable doing, they are not really submitting, they are having their needs and wants met. Fine if there's no real desire for a power exchange and if it floats the Top's boat to have their play/service repertoire dictated by the bottom. I'm not sure that's quite where the OP stands though, since He finds that simply leads to downsizing the repertoire and killing the relationship through boredom.

However, if a power exchange IS desired and the Top wants to be a Dominant and exercise leadership, then there needs to be clear communication about where the boundaries are. Where are the hard limits (for both D and s) ... generally I leave those alone. Where are the fuzzy boundaries? Those things the s doesn't particularly like/enjoy/feel comfortable doing but agrees will not cause permanent harm to do. Now those are areas out of their comfort zone and for Me, they need to consent to going there on some occasions. I don't like the whole "forcing" thing, I want them to be willing to go there even though they are free to say they don't enjoy being there.

Examples: a sub who loves spanking but isn't fond of flogging. Well as I also love spanking, most times he'll get what he likes ... but every now and then I have a desire to grab the flogger ... well, he needs to be prepared to serve Me in his dislike by willingly allowing Me to flog him on those occasions. Interestingly though, the physical play type situations AREN'T where I've met most resistance. That's usually found in everyday type things. Example: I tell a sub to read these forums and post a message at least once a week so he can learn from a wide range of people. he refuses and goes off about "not spilling his guts in public". LONG letters are written to expand on why I want him to do this, the benefits, and that I'm not asking him to spill his guts, a post saying "thanks i learned a lot from this thread" would suffice. he still refuses. Out the door he goes as his lack of willingness to step out of his comfort zone makes Me lose all trust, faith and interest in him. The really silly thing is, had he trusted Me and taken that step, most likely within a month I would have said "good boy, ok you don't need to do that any more". In that situation I couldn't "force" him to do as I said and neither would I have wanted to. he has to show willing to follow where I lead.

OP only You can decide what You want. I totally understand wanting to feel that Your partner enjoys most of what is happening, I wouldn't take pleasure in someone's discomfort all the time either. I'm not that much of a sadist (physical or emotional). But if You were to take the tack of insisting from the start that there will be times when You require them to be out of their comfort zone, and find a way of testing their consent to that fairly early on, then maybe that will make the screening process a bit easier. They need to trust You to not make this so frequent that it kills the relationship. Also You can say there will be "free communication" times when the sub can express to You their thoughts about the frequency and intensity of those "out of comfort zone" times, but that when You are telling them to go there isn't the time to voice that. I wish You luck!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

_____________________________

Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/16/2009 5:17:13 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay
Getting back to the OP, I'm very much aligned with loving pet in that I don't believe it's submission until there is a willingness to "pay the cost", by which I mean being prepared to be out of their comfort zone at least some of the time.


This almost reads as though you can't have a d/s relationship with a high level of compatibility because then there won't be enough stuff she doesn't like and still has to do. Or else the dom has to order her to do stuff he actually isn't interested in just to test her twue submissiveness. And this makes no sense to me.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/16/2009 5:52:17 AM   
daintydimples


Posts: 967
Joined: 7/6/2009
Status: offline 		In a good dynamic the domly type does not actually need to force a thing. This is because the s-type NEEDS to be obedient and pleasing. The domly type engendered that need.by laying a proper relationship foundation, which included a certain degree of seduction. It's also included a great deal of mutual communication. Having "rules" that you tell no one about but expect them to uphold is several steps beyond passive aggressive. You are guaranteeing the relationship will fail with that attitude.

Of course, basic kink incompatibilities do exist. "Screw the Roses" has a great kink checklist and I'm sure you can find one online too. I like the Screw the Roses one b/c the answers are not just yes and no. Some of the answers are, "I'd do that for you, I'm curious about this, I like this but am embarrassed to to admit it, so force me."  To me that provides a more indepth look in terms of how compatible you are kink wise.

I'd love to see a copy of my first checklist. Quite a few things that were in my "I would never do" column have shifted over the years.





_____________________________

Some soften by the forced reflection that comes from loss; others harden. Which are you?




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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/16/2009 6:10:02 AM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LordDarkPleasure

Now here's the problem:  at first we try things and I actually have a much larger range of activities available because the girl is willing to do them to please me, and because she isn't aware of my personnal rules.  As time passes and we know each other more, I refrain from doing more and more things that she claims to dislike, to the point where the girl will, consciously or not, abuse this personnal rule to the point that boredom kicks in.  How can I avoid or get out of this pattern?



Doing more and more things that I dislike is the only way to keep my attention and stop the boredom and since I usually give consent once at the outset it's also tedious to have to keep giving it over and over again.
If activities surpass my consent I just release myself and am gone.


< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 9/16/2009 6:11:35 AM >

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/16/2009 9:40:56 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Perfectly stated agirl. And, of course, my viewpoints are my own and not particularly relevant to others.

But I agree that because of the way I initially shaped the authority dynamic, her "no" and yours don't mean the same thing. For her, the only "no" she has is "No, I don't want to be your slave anymore". That, however, is tempered HEAVILY by the fact that I love her. While she never says "no" for herself, I do so on her behalf when needed. In the example jaz gave, I would've seen her mounting distress long before SHE got to the point of needing to take off her collar.


Im sorry but nobody is perfect. If you can read your partner better than my partner can read me then good on ya but then neither of us understand the dynamics behind each others relationships other than your Dominant and so is Steve and your partner is submissive and I am very possibly not.

_____________________________

S&M (Steve and Maria) persona libre de convencionalismos


Fan of edgeplay.co.uk

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/16/2009 9:45:50 AM   
Sunnyfey


Posts: 1436
Joined: 9/21/2007
From: OK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: daintydimples

I'd love to see a copy of my first checklist. Quite a few things that were in my "I would never do" column have shifted over the years.



Mini-tangent.

You know I realized something the other day, most of my "would never do"s on my first checklist, we're things I had never seen be done in the context of a trustful/loving D/s dynamic. I did not see them as "good" activities, I saw them as "bad, abusive,wrong". Then I went public, then I got to see everything...Now my hard limits then? Are some of my core kinks now.

(end hijack)


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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/16/2009 10:01:45 AM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz


quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Perfectly stated agirl. And, of course, my viewpoints are my own and not particularly relevant to others.

But I agree that because of the way I initially shaped the authority dynamic, her "no" and yours don't mean the same thing. For her, the only "no" she has is "No, I don't want to be your slave anymore". That, however, is tempered HEAVILY by the fact that I love her. While she never says "no" for herself, I do so on her behalf when needed. In the example jaz gave, I would've seen her mounting distress long before SHE got to the point of needing to take off her collar.


Im sorry but nobody is perfect. If you can read your partner better than my partner can read me then good on ya but then neither of us understand the dynamics behind each others relationships other than your Dominant and so is Steve and your partner is submissive and I am very possibly not.


If that is kind of one of the agreed upon parameters of the relationship ie we are two human beings who will fail each other occasionally, then that failure isn't going to end my consent, just perhaps something that is going on. Even if I never say no, my body would be doing it for me in your example. The sounds of my cries and screams would be vastly different. At some point, he'll get a clue.

Further, I think if the word no ever passed my lips with any kind of force behind it, that would be a massive cue. I just simply don't use it. That no would not be a limit, barrier, or defiance, just a cue of trouble. One might even liken it to a safeword. If things have gone so far that I have said no and mean it, I would have to be well beyond handling what's going on and things probably should stop. This is only the case because of how I have been in the past. My no carries a special weight at this point. I don't know if I will ever need it, be able to use it, but it is there just as a byproduct of my own track record.

lovingpet

(in reply to allthatjaz)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/16/2009 10:10:40 AM   
MsAntoinette


Posts: 1
Joined: 4/18/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

Getting back to the OP, I'm very much aligned with loving pet in that I don't believe it's submission until there is a willingness to "pay the cost", by which I mean being prepared to be out of their comfort zone at least some of the time. If a "sub" is only ever serving or being played with in ways that they like/enjoy/are comfortable doing, they are not really submitting, they are having their needs and wants met. Fine if there's no real desire for a power exchange and if it floats the Top's boat to have their play/service repertoire dictated by the bottom. I'm not sure that's quite where the OP stands though, since He finds that simply leads to downsizing the repertoire and killing the relationship through boredom.

However, if a power exchange IS desired and the Top wants to be a Dominant and exercise leadership, then there needs to be clear communication about where the boundaries are. Where are the hard limits (for both D and s) ... generally I leave those alone. Where are the fuzzy boundaries? Those things the s doesn't particularly like/enjoy/feel comfortable doing but agrees will not cause permanent harm to do. Now those are areas out of their comfort zone and for Me, they need to consent to going there on some occasions. I don't like the whole "forcing" thing, I want them to be willing to go there even though they are free to say they don't enjoy being there.

Examples: a sub who loves spanking but isn't fond of flogging. Well as I also love spanking, most times he'll get what he likes ... but every now and then I have a desire to grab the flogger ... well, he needs to be prepared to serve Me in his dislike by willingly allowing Me to flog him on those occasions. Interestingly though, the physical play type situations AREN'T where I've met most resistance. That's usually found in everyday type things. Example: I tell a sub to read these forums and post a message at least once a week so he can learn from a wide range of people. he refuses and goes off about "not spilling his guts in public". LONG letters are written to expand on why I want him to do this, the benefits, and that I'm not asking him to spill his guts, a post saying "thanks i learned a lot from this thread" would suffice. he still refuses. Out the door he goes as his lack of willingness to step out of his comfort zone makes Me lose all trust, faith and interest in him. The really silly thing is, had he trusted Me and taken that step, most likely within a month I would have said "good boy, ok you don't need to do that any more". In that situation I couldn't "force" him to do as I said and neither would I have wanted to. he has to show willing to follow where I lead.

OP only You can decide what You want. I totally understand wanting to feel that Your partner enjoys most of what is happening, I wouldn't take pleasure in someone's discomfort all the time either. I'm not that much of a sadist (physical or emotional). But if You were to take the tack of insisting from the start that there will be times when You require them to be out of their comfort zone, and find a way of testing their consent to that fairly early on, then maybe that will make the screening process a bit easier. They need to trust You to not make this so frequent that it kills the relationship. Also You can say there will be "free communication" times when the sub can express to You their thoughts about the frequency and intensity of those "out of comfort zone" times, but that when You are telling them to go there isn't the time to voice that. I wish You luck!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

(in reply to MaamJay)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/16/2009 11:38:19 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz


quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Perfectly stated agirl. And, of course, my viewpoints are my own and not particularly relevant to others.

But I agree that because of the way I initially shaped the authority dynamic, her "no" and yours don't mean the same thing. For her, the only "no" she has is "No, I don't want to be your slave anymore". That, however, is tempered HEAVILY by the fact that I love her. While she never says "no" for herself, I do so on her behalf when needed. In the example jaz gave, I would've seen her mounting distress long before SHE got to the point of needing to take off her collar.


Im sorry but nobody is perfect. If you can read your partner better than my partner can read me then good on ya but then neither of us understand the dynamics behind each others relationships other than your Dominant and so is Steve and your partner is submissive and I am very possibly not.


I am not submissive and although I chose this type of relationship, it will never be the same for me as it is for someone who is submissive. I don't have the same driving force to BE submissive, pleasing or to obey, but for the majority of the time that's not necessary. I do as he asks or instructs because it makes sense to or because the consequences of NOT doing so aren't pleasant AND because I respect him and what I chose.

I accept all that comes from being in a TPE relationship and that includes being told, or shown, that I *bloody well will* when I resist or am stubborn. M knows exactly what I'm like, he knew what he was getting and has absolutely no trouble owning someone that isn't submissive.

I don't spend my time trying to thwart the very type of relationship I actively chose but there are times when I resist what he has decided because I *don't want to* for various reasons........it makes not a jot of difference to the outcome. He WILL force me , if necessary.

I realise that it's not for everyone but as I said before, everyone is coming at this from their own springboard........and not everyone chose to live this way for the same reasons. If my collar comes off, it's the end of our relationship, I don't have the option of having anything else but this. It wasn't on offer.

agirl



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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/17/2009 2:43:23 AM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay
Getting back to the OP, I'm very much aligned with loving pet in that I don't believe it's submission until there is a willingness to "pay the cost", by which I mean being prepared to be out of their comfort zone at least some of the time.


This almost reads as though you can't have a d/s relationship with a high level of compatibility because then there won't be enough stuff she doesn't like and still has to do. Or else the dom has to order her to do stuff he actually isn't interested in just to test her twue submissiveness. And this makes no sense to me.


No, it's not artificial as you implied Des. I just don't think any 2 people are ever 100% compatible, certainly not at the beginning. They may well grow to be more and more compatible over time. So if they are 90% compatible, well there's that 10% to play around with. Also the compatability may be a matter of degrees. As I cited in My first example, a sub may not particularly like to be flogged but it's not a "No never" thing. The Domme may only feel like doing a flogging occasionally too. So they are pretty compatible. However, what matters is that on those rare occasions She DOES feel like grabbing the flogger ... he is willing to go there with Her rather than whining that he'd rather have a spanking!

I'm a firm believer in there needing to be a fair degree of compatability between D and s, particularly in terms of shared hard limits because then they are not a barrier, they are simply mutually agreed no go territory. For example, it would be useless My taking on a slave who's into scat and full toilet service as those are no go zones for Me. But if the slave and I think alike on that it becomes a moot point, something that doesn't even factor into the relationship in future. Where difficulty arises is when one partner's "must have" is the other partner's "hate" because it's really hard to find a reasonable middle course of action and frequency. So on the contrary to your post, I think there has to be compatability but there also has to be submission to the times when the D requires something that's not up there on the sub's preference list.

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

_____________________________

Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/17/2009 3:26:29 AM   
SlutAndi


Posts: 36
Joined: 9/16/2009
Status: offline 		My |Dom told me from the begining what his limits and wants where to help mw understand how it all worked as I was very new to it all.

I do have my say in our relationship and both like it that way. As a sub it was imperetive that i learned to communicate properly with him. Sometimes I do see a pattern arrising where he wants to do something and " im just not feeling it" And I feel terrible as it pops his little bubble. One time this happened and i went and had a little cry in the bathroom, feeling angry with myself for not doing it and the upset for possibly disappointing him. When i came out and spoke to him he and I had decided that tomorrow I will fully submit and he can do Whatever he wishes, no holds barred. And because i was determined to do this for him we had that day and night to play and it was truelly fantastic and one of the best. And since then we havent really had the same issue because we endded up finding out as lot about eachother in that one session.

The other thing that he normally does is "okay, fine.. You tell me what you want" forcing me to give an answer and that is what we do. Its also a way of him finding out what I like because generally its difficult for me to express my wants.. but this way he forces me to do it!

I dont know if this helps, I just started rambling off and also sorry for any spelling errors!!

Goodluck

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/17/2009 8:44:58 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		MaamJay, my previous Dominant had a very similar view of submission. It was rarely an incompatibility in toys or activities, more that he enjoyed ramping right up along with me as I warmed up, so I couldn't sink in and enjoy it, do something I wanted but harder than was pleasurable, mixing in a few things that I disliked while doing something I loved, etc. Our different play styles were a contributing factor in our breakup - while he did do some things I enjoyed as well, we often went for 2 or 3 months without a session that I could really get to that glowy endorphin rush place. I had mixed feelings about where he was taking me - kind of loving doing it for him, but hating it at the same time, though he stirred in plenty of things I loved. There were other factors of course as well. He also really linked service with submission in my mind, by the way he reacted when I did things for him, rather than my just doing them to be helpful.

My Master's view of submission/slavery are more my doing what he tells me to, and what's going on in my head. We do sometimes play to the point where it feels good doing it for him, but hurts more than I like - and it does reinforce my submission to him, but it's not his primary focus. There are some things that he wants that I have some concerns about (not hard limits, but are difficult for me). They aren't extremely important to him, and his approach is more encouraging me to dip my toe in gently and praising me when I do, giving me a good experience with them.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 9/17/2009 8:45:50 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/17/2009 9:57:45 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
Im sorry but nobody is perfect. If you can read your partner better than my partner can read me then good on ya but then neither of us understand the dynamics behind each others relationships other than your Dominant and so is Steve and your partner is submissive and I am very possibly not.
I didn't mean to imply that I'm perfect jaz. Really. But I'm still looking at the dynamic between Carol & I though and not seeing how I could miss the level of agitation that would be required in her to actually take off her collar. Honestly, by the time she got to that point, I would think she'd be a sobbing mess on the ground. She wouldn't say "no", but she'd drive herself to obey even as she begged me to reconsider. It would all be quite melodramatic. I'm also speculating that because we don't do an SM scenes, it would perhaps be a lot slower than the situation you're describing allowing the time I think I'd have to see it and respond.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to allthatjaz)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: The line between being Dominant and forcing - 9/17/2009 10:08:28 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I think one of the things that makes this sort of thing odd for us is that we're not into s & m. He wouldn't seek to have a play session be uncomfortable/unpleasant for me since that doesn't do it for him.

Playwise we're into bondage and sex. And if something he's doing turns me off so that I'm not feeling sexual, then my dislike will ruin it for him since he wants me to be wanting him.

As far as real life stuff that doesn't appeal, of course. But that would happen even if I was unpartnered. I would still have to spend my time getting the oil changed in the car. Or do laundry. I certainly was bored out of my skull while researching how to build a concrete shower for him. But he needed the info and I had the time to do it, so I did. He would not have made me spend the day doing so if that required me not getting necessary dental work done, or some such.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 57
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