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Studying the Origin of Deviances - 9/11/2009 5:47:03 PM

Elipsis

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Hey all,

Here's a question I'm hoping some of you here could help me on... and it's pretty broad so bear with me. I know a number of studies have been done trying to determine the origin of homosexuality... with churches screaming it's about bad parenting and influences, psychologists looking at childhood behavioral patterns, and attempts to find an answer in genetics... personally the best answer I've read is that hormonal levels in the mother while a child is still unborn have the most direct correlation to sexual preference... but anyway that isn't what this thread is about.

Has any legitimate research in a similar vein been done to try to determine where fetishes, particularly BDSM inclinations, come from? Why are some people so naturally submissive / dominant while others have no grasp or mind for the practice and can't figure out why people tie up and hit each other. It's obviously not a lot of things, no easy explanation like we all had a traumatic experience, or we all ate too much cauliflower in our formative years. Does anybody know if this has ever been formally researched? As far as deviances go, BDSM is a pretty common one, so I'm wondering if enough interest has ever been garnered to ever look at the reasons for the development of dominant / submissive tenancies with the same scientific curiosity that heterosexuality versus homosexuality is sometimes studied.

Thanks,

E

Post #: 1

RE: Studying the Origin of Deviances - 9/11/2009 6:33:31 PM

Sunnyfey

Posts: 1436
Joined: 9/21/2007
From: OK
Status: offline

<wrong link sorry>

I don't know, I've been searching for something that might be close to the questions your asking, but the only thing I keep finding is articles about how sexual deviance is a mental disorder....

< Message edited by Sunnyfey -- 9/11/2009 6:39:23 PM >

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Post #: 2

RE: Studying the Origin of Deviances - 9/11/2009 7:57:42 PM

pyroaquatic

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From: Pyroaquatica
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I know there are those who scoff at Freud on these boards because he is so old school but there is one thing that he has said that rings in my head.

"The only abnormal sexual behavior is asexuality."

Why does it matter how you get your freak on? GO! Get it on (at least someone is). People can point fingers all they would like, at least our thoughts are out in the open rather than locked away in our heads.

And who is to say what specific act is deviant from the normal sexuality? Hmm? What IS normal sexuality? Fuck, what is normal? I do not know, nor do I wish to ever find out. They day I do is the day that my life flashes before my third eye.

But this is my humble opinion and one should pay little mind to such.

Continue the banter!

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As your desire is, so is your will.
As your will is, so is your deed.
As your deed is, so is your destiny.
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(in reply to Elipsis)

Post #: 3

RE: Studying the Origin of Deviances - 9/11/2009 8:00:17 PM

Acer49

Posts: 1434
Joined: 8/7/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elipsis

Hey all,

Here's a question I'm hoping some of you here could help me on... and it's pretty broad so bear with me. I know a number of studies have been done trying to determine the origin of homosexuality... with churches screaming it's about bad parenting and influences, psychologists looking at childhood behavioral patterns, and attempts to find an answer in genetics... personally the best answer I've read is that hormonal levels in the mother while a child is still unborn have the most direct correlation to sexual preference... but anyway that isn't what this thread is about.

Has any legitimate research in a similar vein been done to try to determine where fetishes, particularly BDSM inclinations, come from? Why are some people so naturally submissive / dominant while others have no grasp or mind for the practice and can't figure out why people tie up and hit each other. It's obviously not a lot of things, no easy explanation like we all had a traumatic experience, or we all ate too much cauliflower in our formative years. Does anybody know if this has ever been formally researched? As far as deviances go, BDSM is a pretty common one, so I'm wondering if enough interest has ever been garnered to ever look at the reasons for the development of dominant / submissive tenancies with the same scientific curiosity that heterosexuality versus homosexuality is sometimes studied.

Thanks,

E

To my knowledge, no such research exists, nor will it ever. No one truly cares and no one is going to waste that much money to make their conclusions believeable

_____________________________

Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
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(in reply to Elipsis)

Post #: 4

RE: Studying the Origin of Deviances - 9/11/2009 8:05:37 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

Enjoying pain in sex is no more abnormal than enjoying pain in food. And I have yet to see people protesting against chili cookoffs as being deviant.

It is obvious to anyone that there is a huge variance in how much spice people like in their food, so why not how much spice in their sexuality?

As far as dominance and submission goes, any study of primates will show enormous variances between members of species. And this is obviously a survival factor. Imagine if you will, a group all of whom wish to be dominant. Instead of cooperation, they would kill themselves off in infighting. Or a group with no leader and therefore no one to make a decision to grab stones and attack invaders versus fleeing. In neither case would survival be readily assured.

Re homosexuality: I have read compelling arguments that homosexuality contributes to survival of the genes. A group of six adults with two homosexuals allows more adult animals to gather food and protect the young. I can't cite the study but I believe it was in birds.

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RE: Studying the Origin of Deviances - 9/11/2009 10:53:10 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elipsis

Has any legitimate research in a similar vein been done to try to determine where fetishes, particularly BDSM inclinations, come from? Why are some people so naturally submissive / dominant while others have no grasp or mind for the practice and can't figure out why people tie up and hit each other. It's obviously not a lot of things, no easy explanation like we all had a traumatic experience, or we all ate too much cauliflower in our formative years. Does anybody know if this has ever been formally researched? As far as deviances go, BDSM is a pretty common one, so I'm wondering if enough interest has ever been garnered to ever look at the reasons for the development of dominant / submissive tenancies with the same scientific curiosity that heterosexuality versus homosexuality is sometimes studied.

Damned good question. I've often wondered the same thing, and you're only the second person I've ever seen who's even considered the issue before I brought it up. To the best of my knowledge, it's never been formally studied, but if it ever has and someone here is aware of it, I'd be fascinated to hear more about it. You've got to figure it has to come from somewhere, has to have some sort of evolutionary basis. But I'll be damned if I can figure out what it is.

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Post #: 6

RE: Studying the Origin of Deviances - 9/11/2009 11:32:42 PM

AlexandraLynch

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(shrug) Some of us are just bent.

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Post #: 7

RE: Studying the Origin of Deviances - 9/12/2009 12:48:01 AM

LordDarkPleasure

Posts: 91
Joined: 4/26/2005
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A few causes that can be determined, but they are by far not all encompassing or the only sources of a kink. Just dominant factors. I'll try to link my sources if I find them later on:

A person who's raised to not have sex before marriage might develop rape fantasies. The reason being that she can imagine have sex without feeling guilty about it.

A person who's raised in a very strict setting or that is taught that sex is wrong might develop masochistic tendencies, punishing himself fordoing it. That is kind of why S&M is often related to english culture, with the puritans and all that. Yes, christianity is a huge source of SM tendencies.

Some masochists actually have a physical issue that actually makes them feel pleasure instead of pain.

People highly into spanking and who give it a strong mental aspect will often have lacked a parental figure in their childhood.

People into bondage are I believe the most scattered when it comes to reason, bondage often blurring the line between being a kink or a medium to reach a related kink. Rope fetish is the only bondage specific source that comes to mind. It happens especially in japan, where its sort of a symbol. "A tool made from natural resources"

People with heavy responsibilities (single mother, company president, ect...) will often develop submissive fantasies and tendencies in bed, sort of like seeking a balance in their life

I believe the opposite also happens with people who feel they have little control in their life, although less common.

Also, some people simply have a need to control, dominate or submit in their characters. They were born with it.

Here's what its NOT directly related to: income, social status... gah, its a lot harder to remember unimportant factors.

(in reply to AlexandraLynch)

Post #: 8

RE: Studying the Origin of Deviances - 9/12/2009 6:08:41 AM

pompeii

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From: Silicon Valley, San Jose, California
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There was a thread somewhere which I felt might have gotten us closer to the mark. It discussed "imprinting" at an early age, which, perhaps, affects the nascent active wiring that is constantly going on in a young brain (active de-wiring which is currently occurring in my much older brain notwithstanding).

The (unsubstantiated) hypothesis is that, at a critical stage of the wiring, "something" occurs to "imprint" upon your neurons the particular predilection that becomes ingrained into your personality.

Dunno if the argument holds water; but I blame early childhood imprinting as the origin of my particular D/s deviancy!

(in reply to LordDarkPleasure)

Post #: 9

RE: Studying the Origin of Deviances - 9/12/2009 6:48:10 AM

happylittlepet

Posts: 289
Status: offline

A quick search with the terms 'bondage' and 'masochism' comes up with 11 articles in the database of my university library.

One article has a beautifully worded piece about submission and surrender.

Another article deals with the death of someone who died of auto-erotic self-aphyxiation. This article speaks about the psychiatric problems of this person.

A third article deals with problems in males who were abused as children.

I have sent a cmail to the support section of these forums, with the question if it is allowed to post some citations from these articles, with the proper referencing. I am awaiting their response.

Edit:

quote:

As far as deviances go, BDSM is a pretty common one, so I'm wondering if enough interest has ever been garnered to ever look at the reasons for the development of dominant / submissive tenancies with the same scientific curiosity that heterosexuality versus homosexuality is sometimes studied.

Maybe we should start this discussion with defining what 'deviance' is. Partaking in BDSM is no longer considered to indicate the presence of a mental disorder. The problem with the word deviant is that it has a negative tone. It is not seen as a neutral 'different from what the majority does'. A search on 'sexual deviance' shows studies that deal with sexual crimes, i.e. non consensual. My question would be 'are the origins for sexual criminal behavior different from the origins of dominant/submissive behavior.

< Message edited by happylittlepet -- 9/12/2009 7:00:37 AM >

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Post #: 10

RE: Studying the Origin of Deviances - 9/12/2009 9:05:20 AM

sweetsub1957

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~Fast Reply~
Who is the ultimate authority that can say bdsm is deviant? Deviant from the norm? What is normal? There are so many variations in sexuality, there is no norm. Besides, I bet there are quite a number of those so-called normal folks that indulge in spanking or do have a definite power dynamic where one person always has the last word.....they just aren't willing to admit it. hahaha All I know, is I've always been submissive, ever since I can remember, and I like me that way.

~edited for wording~

< Message edited by sweetsub1957 -- 9/12/2009 9:06:52 AM >

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RE: Studying the Origin of Deviances - 9/12/2009 11:25:07 AM

MasterSlaveLA

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S&M: Studies in Dominance & Submission
http://www.amazon.com/S-M-Studies-Dominance-Submission/dp/087975978X

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RE: Studying the Origin of Deviances - 9/12/2009 12:01:55 PM

DavanKael

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I can't cite any references off of the top of my head.
As someone who is both professionally and personally interested in human sexuality, I have done some specialized coursework in the area.
The nature/nurture debate goes on about all sorts of things, so I suppose why not bdsm. First, I would say that trying to lump everything bdsm into one category is worse than what's currently the case in the DSM with the, I believe, 7 different types of schizophrenia (It's so divergent and considering it all under the same umbrella doesn't make a lot of sense to me).
So, just a sampling of some thoughts informed by years of accumulating knowledge and forming my own opinions. I'm not saying I am right, I'm telling you what I think.
Imo, fetishes, true fetishes (Not the popularized bullshit use of the term) stem from something after birth: I don't think someone is born with a fetish. The most immediate theory I give you is that it's counter-survival. Now, one might retort with so is homosexuality because same-sex unions don't breed. Well, the difference, though, imo, is the pervasiveness and the compulsion behind fetishes; how they can absorb a focus to the exclusion of much else. What DesFip said about the bird study is something I have seen argued about humans in literature: that folks who are gay are actually helpful to shoring up the offspring of others through their contributions to society that lessens the burden from someone else (Or via caring for offspring if the parents can't, in some instances). The problem with figuring out how far back we can trace fetishes is that written language is a relatively new concept, in th grand scheme of universal time.
Straight up causing of/endurance of pain? I believe that's in our genes. There are all sorts of physiological reasons why this makes sense and the first thing that pops into my mind is neurotransmitters. Endorphin highs feel cool! Some exercise to get the rush, others take a flogging. < shrug > Add to this pain as a venerated part of human experience across time, society feeds it whether they wish to admit it or not.
Dominants, submissives, and those who walk between. Much like male, female, and third sex (Or however one wishes to define it) seem to be variances within the species that experiences tweak.
It occurs to me that this is a topic that could be discussed for hours.
Humanity doesn't sexually exist at a single point, there's a span of behaviors. As with any other behaviors, I believe that there are inherences in our genes that can be tweaked by experiences in most instances. There are few things in terms of the grand umbrella of bdsm that I believe are created just experientially (Fetishes, as an example).
My opinion only and as I enjoy coming up with research concepts but abhorr the rigors of scientific method, I don't see myself doing the research to flesh these things out. Interesting topic, though, and I look forward to reading additional replies. :>
Davan

< Message edited by DavanKael -- 9/12/2009 12:05:07 PM >

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RE: Studying the Origin of Deviances - 9/12/2009 12:09:37 PM

mnottertail

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origins of deviances could as well be origins of the species--- well, when there is a division here, I suppose there is also a question of right and wrong, and that is by all means subjective.

in humans, male and female deviate in some respects, and that is part and parcel of deviance for me, a distinction with or without a difference.

I don't buy any of the assumptions of clinical deviance, therefore I do not buy any of the deals, or if you prefer, bottom lines.

Ron

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Post #: 14

RE: Studying the Origin of Deviances - 9/12/2009 3:17:18 PM

sexisubi

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i dont think a lot of research has been done because it has been within our genetics since we could read and write. a lot of people look to take power, just looking at history. so lets go back to Alexander the great, during those times women were the empowering force not men with in the macedonian culture. Men often would take the company of boys or men to show their dominance or influence over society and usually these would involve sexual promiscuity within their relationship of mentor and teacher.

while back in the day it was appropriate and considered attractive for a woman to serve her husband to all hours of the night waiting for his return from drinking with his friends, studying the legend of greece's formation i think, im not sure who's story it was. the story goes that the leaders of these nations and a great general were out drinking saying my wife is better then your wife, they go around and find the wives all doing the 'wrong thing, which was not working, except for the generals, so on so on. either way work was the reason she was beautiful, and being obedient in doing so. the knight in shining armor saves the princess, as a knight serves his queen, as the king will not deal with insolence from his subjects. i think its just opening up a can of worms into history.

others can argue, its the nurturing care that is craved, especially in woman.

i think another big question is sadism, its still a form of control and exceptance. the feeling that youre making them do something that hurts, or youre hurting them and they arent running away. i mean most doms must have thought one time or another... whats wrong with me? why do i want to do these things to a woman or man? having a person except it feels good and fasinates the dom. it makes them feel accepted and understood.

even though i cant explain masochism.. i cant look outside of the box in which i believe it is, i wouldnt consider myself a mega masochist but i enjoy some pain during pleasure. i am not sure what makes someone enjoy suffering through pain for another.

**this is all based on opinion and only the occasional research.**

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RE: Studying the Origin of Deviances - 9/12/2009 3:41:10 PM

happylittlepet

Posts: 289
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I hope you all don't mind if I do want to know a wee bit more about the origins. Thus I will dig a little bit more

_____________________________

There are no rules, there is only compassion.

Simple religion:
There is no need for temples,
No need for complicated philosophies
My brain and my heart are my temples
My philosophy is kindness (DL)

'There's a fire burning in my heart'

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Post #: 16

RE: Studying the Origin of Deviances - 9/12/2009 3:41:48 PM

quietlycontent

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It would be interesting to know whether domination and submission, sado masochism and bondage etc in sex are only practised in the western world. For instance do the pygmy tribes of the Amazon, or the head hunting tribes of New Guinea indulge in similar sexual practises? Because if they don't, i don't think you can put it down to evolution.

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Post #: 17

RE: Studying the Origin of Deviances - 9/12/2009 4:17:31 PM

happylittlepet

Posts: 289
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One of the risks of evolutionary theory is that it is used to explain everything and anything.

A theory based on 'behavior of individuals' who lived in prehistoric times is very hard to verify and measure. Thus it remains a theory without a scientific basis. Of course measuring skeletons and identifying food remains is scientific, but to go as far as to explain our mating behaviors based on speculations is not. Also, other theories are often forgotten, theories that are rooted in the presence, and find support in much research. And yes, I do recognize the limits of research and such.

_____________________________

There are no rules, there is only compassion.

Simple religion:
There is no need for temples,
No need for complicated philosophies
My brain and my heart are my temples
My philosophy is kindness (DL)

'There's a fire burning in my heart'

(in reply to quietlycontent)

Post #: 18

RE: Studying the Origin of Deviances - 9/12/2009 6:43:55 PM

windchymes

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What if we ALL were born "kinky", which would really be "normal".....? Maybe vanilla is really the kinky stuff.

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RE: Studying the Origin of Deviances - 9/12/2009 7:29:53 PM

DavanKael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: quietlycontent
It would be interesting to know whether domination and submission, sado masochism and bondage etc in sex are only practised in the western world. For instance do the pygmy tribes of the Amazon, or the head hunting tribes of New Guinea indulge in similar sexual practises? Because if they don't, i don't think you can put it down to evolution.

Perhaps valid, perhaps not...if we're talking about fulfilling psychological needs, the physical manifestation could be different from culture to culture.
Davan

_____________________________

May you live as long as you wish & love as long as you live
-Robert A Heinlein

It's about the person & the bond,not the bondage
-Me

Waiting is

170NZ (Aka:Sex God Du Jour) pts

Jesus,I've ALWAYS been a deviant
-Leadership527,Jeff

(in reply to quietlycontent)

Post #: 20

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