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Kinky Dating, BDSM, and Sex - 8/24/2009 1:22:00 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Well now.  There's a title that could capture the attention of a lot of folks.

With all of the mix that's been in several threads about courting, dating, playing, and how we balance this all out when we're connecting with new people, I thought about tying some thoughts together,  We talk about how we want to share vanilla interests with our kink interests.  There's also that little part about where do we start treating each other like M types or s types and how that plays out.  We create some different types of tightropes to walk, even though we're just trying to get from one side to the other.

One thing that I keep coming back to through these various topics is the differences when it comes to the timeline of how we approach these different things.  A lot of us have talked about how we meet that other person for the first time.  A large number of folks will do the traditional coffee for a first meet or arrange to say hello at an event that both people are going to anyway.  I don't think many people would argue that would be a logical way to go about that.

What I want to look at more is how do you continue the process.  It's not one coffee meeting straight to a full blown D/s dynamic in most cases.  Vanilla folks don't have coffee and decide to get married and it's probably kind of silly to engage in the parallel.

Now, if we were vanilla people, we might go through a pattern of coffee, decide we like each other enough to do lunch, then dinner, maybe a movie or some other activity, so on and so on.  Perhaps emotional attachments start to form, etc.  We might hug to say hello or good-bye.  Engage in the classic good-night kiss at the doorway.  Maybe do a little heavy petting to see if the sparks fly.

For the sake of discussion, let's go with the theory that we're not vanilla people.  (Humor Me.)  We enjoy wiitwd and we already know that we have an interest in it.  Whether that interest is rope, pain, power dynamics, or whatever else fits.  Somewhere in there, just like the vanilla dating folks, these things are going to fall into a progression.  Otherwise, we're just pretending that it doesn't exist.

I tend to see BDSM play that doesn't involve physical sex as part of that progression.  I put it somewhere in the making out or heavy petting stage that some vanilla folks do on how they escalate their relationships.  Starting to implement little bits of power structure as I go along or some tastes of play here and there.  It becomes as process as a dynamic builds.  A part of that is sexual tension, even though I may not be interested in sexual satisfaction too early in this process.  I want the full range of bond to exist before it goes to a physical, sexual level.

I'm wondering how others see the progression in dating folks who are interested in BDSM.  How do things work for you?  Is the bond of a D/s or emotional dynamic a requirement before sexual interaction?  Can you engage in casual play for a period of time as you are building that bond that does not include physical sex?




_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Kinky Dating, BDSM, and Sex - 8/24/2009 2:20:39 PM   
gentlemanprince


Posts: 127
Joined: 5/19/2008
Status: offline 		I can't generalize even for my own relationships, much less for others. All I can do is tell you what happened in my current one.

We met in a CM chatroom, progressed to chatting in pms and on yahoo, most days and sometimes several hours a day. Yes, there was a sexual tension even then, although we tried - largely succesfully - to keep direct discussion of it out of our conversations. While we didn't talk about kinks, we did talk a lot about our attitudes toward D/s relationships and how they should work.

After about two months, I had a business meeting in her neighborhood (that if if you can call 500 miles the neighborhood). After my meeting I drove to her area. I spent the next day with her and her teenaged son in a purely vanilla friendship setting. We didn't even hold hands. But the relationship felt even better than our online chats. The next day we were alone and I was hers.

(in reply to LadyPact)
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RE: Kinky Dating, BDSM, and Sex - 8/24/2009 2:39:19 PM   
rideemwet


Posts: 93
Joined: 6/12/2009
Status: offline
quote:

I tend to see BDSM play that doesn't involve physical sex as part of that progression.

You're assuming that its possible to seperate them. While in my view they're not equivalent and it is possible to indulge in one and not the other, the few situations that I've indulged in seems to involve a progression in both.

If were to try to seperate things I'd probably find that the physical sex came before the real bdsm?? I think there is a lot more trust involved in tying a gal up and taking her to the edge of pain play then in straight sex.



...edited to fix quoting ...

< Message edited by rideemwet -- 8/24/2009 2:45:00 PM >

(in reply to LadyPact)
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RE: Kinky Dating, BDSM, and Sex - 8/24/2009 3:12:03 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I'm wondering how others see the progression in dating folks who are interested in BDSM.  How do things work for you?  Is the bond of a D/s or emotional dynamic a requirement before sexual interaction?  Can you engage in casual play for a period of time as you are building that bond that does not include physical sex?



there is no separation at all for me. in fact i generally prefer to keep the exchange out of it in the beginning to see how we mesh instead. my pace is much slower, definitely more old fashioned, and rarely ever includes physical attachment or sex. i want the man. i invest time and energy learning who is he and what makes him tick. in the process he's able to discover a few things about me as well.

i don't consider the intimate moments as play. it is a gradual progression and a wonderful time to experiment as our level of comfort increases. we're building for a purpose and i'm patient enough to allow the journey to unfold. i prefer a balance flow instead.

porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to LadyPact)
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RE: Kinky Dating, BDSM, and Sex - 8/24/2009 3:44:33 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Met for brunch, spent the next 8 hours together. Second meet was play and sex and then lunch.
Yes, I know that isn't the way you're supposed to do it but we spent a month prior to meeting talking for several hours a day and both of us had been celibate for 5+ years. What can I say but that we were making up for lost time.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to porcelaine)
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RE: Kinky Dating, BDSM, and Sex - 8/24/2009 3:51:40 PM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		I have minimal experience from which to draw but I approach any potential relationship with the intent to get to know the other person and to gage our compatibilities.  I'm very sex-positive, so I discuss vrious aspects of kink (Though not necessarily details) relatively early on; I'm a very kinky girl and that peoples' parents still tend to like me, lol!  :> 
I don't know that there are hard and fast rules for me in terms of progression per se.  Certainly some things are truisms: nothing gets physical without trust being there as well as rapport, affinity.  As to playing 'non-sexually' before having sex, I consider the things that may be done in a bdsm sense sexual, so they're lumped in there with matters sexual.  Am I going to let someone who I don't want to have intercourse with tie me up and flog me?  Nope. 
I claim minimal wisdom though try to form informed opinions.  :>
  Davan

_____________________________

May you live as long as you wish & love as long as you live
-Robert A Heinlein

It's about the person & the bond,not the bondage
-Me

Waiting is

170NZ (Aka:Sex God Du Jour) pts

Jesus,I've ALWAYS been a deviant
-Leadership527,Jeff

(in reply to DesFIP)
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RE: Kinky Dating, BDSM, and Sex - 8/24/2009 4:09:24 PM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I tend to see BDSM play that doesn't involve physical sex as part of that progression.


I'll see your play and raise you fornication. I don't have a problem with play that includes sex as part of that progression if that's the direction that things head in. I don't have to have it but it's not off the table. I don't practice a set progression. Sometimes things take a while to build and other times they don't. I let the situation dictate the path.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Kinky Dating, BDSM, and Sex - 8/24/2009 4:19:00 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rideemwet

quote:

I tend to see BDSM play that doesn't involve physical sex as part of that progression.

You're assuming that its possible to seperate them. While in my view they're not equivalent and it is possible to indulge in one and not the other, the few situations that I've indulged in seems to involve a progression in both.

If were to try to seperate things I'd probably find that the physical sex came before the real bdsm?? I think there is a lot more trust involved in tying a gal up and taking her to the edge of pain play then in straight sex.



...edited to fix quoting ...

So what you're saying is that, in your opinion, tying someone up because they enjoy being bound should only be engaged in if the rope top is willing to include an orgasm from physical genital stimulation?


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to rideemwet)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Kinky Dating, BDSM, and Sex - 8/24/2009 4:24:36 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

I'll see your play and raise you fornication. I don't have a problem with play that includes sex as part of that progression if that's the direction that things head in. I don't have to have it but it's not off the table. I don't practice a set progression. Sometimes things take a while to build and other times they don't. I let the situation dictate the path.


More directly, Imus, do you feel the same in reverse.  If your play for whatever reason is going to be agreed will not include any forms of physical sex, can you see that as acceptable?


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to DomImus)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Kinky Dating, BDSM, and Sex - 8/24/2009 4:33:28 PM   
mummyman321


Posts: 2102
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Dusseldorf
Status: offline 		For me, I do enjoy the courtship with the Domme. Whether is be long series of emails and chats, a series of lunch or dinner dates or whatever. I am okay with that and actually enjoy it. It helps be get to know a potential Domme and how she thinks. And watching her reactions/mannerisms when talking to her is almost more revealing than her answer are. I really like to know what makes a person tick.

That being said, before I start a courtship with a Domme I do want to know if my key desires/wants/fetishes are inline with the Domme's interests. For instance I have keen interest in latex. If a potential Domme has no interest in latex, I see no point of proceeding further with the Domme. On the same grounds if A Domme's major turn on is forced bi of which I am not, again I see no point of continuing the courtship.

There are some Dommes that prescribe to the theory "Its all about me and I do not care about what the sub wants",. And if that is your philosophy then more power to you but its not my belief. I believe in fully mutual relationship that both the Domme and the sub get what they are seeking out of the relationship. I am a firm believer this is a must for the relationship to grow. So for me I am going to ask a few key questions up front.

_____________________________

Life - Its not about where you are but about the journey to get there - I prefer to choose the road less traveled

(in reply to LadyPact)
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RE: Kinky Dating, BDSM, and Sex - 8/24/2009 4:53:00 PM   
pyroaquatic


Posts: 1535
Joined: 12/4/2006
From: Pyroaquatica
Status: offline
quote:

I'm wondering how others see the progression in dating folks who are interested in BDSM. How do things work for you? Is the bond of a D/s or emotional dynamic a requirement before sexual interaction? Can you engage in casual play for a period of time as you are building that bond that does not include physical sex?


Casual play is very much required before the act of copulation.
An emotional bond comes way before casual play.
'Absolute Trust' must be a solid foundation before the emotional bond is structured.

The art of making babies... or at least pretending to.... is a very serious deal for me. It is an act of love.

Lust is a very selfish thing and being selfish does not make for a good submissive.

.....

I would write more but I am tired.
This is something that will be mulled about in my brain.




_____________________________

You are what your deep, driving desire is.
As your desire is, so is your will.
As your will is, so is your deed.
As your deed is, so is your destiny.
-Brihadaranyaka Upanishad IV.4.5

(in reply to LadyPact)
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RE: Kinky Dating, BDSM, and Sex - 8/24/2009 4:55:34 PM   
rideemwet


Posts: 93
Joined: 6/12/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: rideemwet

quote:

I tend to see BDSM play that doesn't involve physical sex as part of that progression.

You're assuming that its possible to seperate them. While in my view they're not equivalent and it is possible to indulge in one and not the other, the few situations that I've indulged in seems to involve a progression in both.

If were to try to separate things I'd probably find that the physical sex came before the real bdsm?? I think there is a lot more trust involved in tying a gal up and taking her to the edge of pain play then in straight sex.



...edited to fix quoting ...

So what you're saying is that, in your opinion, tying someone up because they enjoy being bound should only be engaged in if the rope top is willing to include an orgasm from physical genital stimulation?



No, I explicitly said " it is possible to indulge in one and not the other".  I'm not setting any hard fast rules even for myself much less someone else (unless she's the sub at hand), that would take the fun out of it.  I do know I enjoy variation and I've thought of try bdsm first sometime just for a change.  But for the few relatations I've been in so far that have some bdsm context, it seems both sex and bdsm require some trust and as trust builds so does the depth of both.

I don't have an opinion about what someone else should or shouldn't do.  I am telling you what's worked for me so far, and pointing out that it doesn't fit your model of bdsm before sex, and is probably a bit more sex before bdsm, but they're really pretty intertwined in terms of progression in intensity, although not necessarily both happening on the same day.

...edited for grammar ... grrrrr


< Message edited by rideemwet -- 8/24/2009 4:58:58 PM >

(in reply to LadyPact)
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RE: Kinky Dating, BDSM, and Sex - 8/24/2009 5:12:10 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Now, if we were vanilla people, we might go through a pattern of coffee, decide we like each other enough to do lunch, then dinner, maybe a movie or some other activity, so on and so on.  Perhaps emotional attachments start to form, etc.  We might hug to say hello or good-bye.  Engage in the classic good-night kiss at the doorway.  Maybe do a little heavy petting to see if the sparks fly.
Whether or not I'm vanilla, that's what I'd do.

For the sake of discussion, let's go with the theory that we're not vanilla people. (Humor Me.)
*sighs* fine fine... You, Davan, Carol. All the women in my life keep demanding that I'm not vanilla... sheez

We enjoy wiitwd and we already know that we have an interest in it. Whether that interest is rope, pain, power dynamics, or whatever else fits. Somewhere in there, just like the vanilla dating folks, these things are going to fall into a progression. Otherwise, we're just pretending that it doesn't exist.Yup, and indpendent of kink, there are LOTS of parts of my life that someone may or may not like. Someone may not like the fact that I'm a computer geek. Or, back when I worked, that I invested a lot in my career meaning less so at home. Or, that I like ocean kayaking. The fact that I want to understand whether there is even basic compatibility before I start delving into details doesn't mean that I'm pretending the details don't exist. It's just my cart and my horse go in a certain order... which may not be someone else's order.

I can't accurately comment on the rest of this since I don't play and can't ever imagine myself playing. But in general, I think for me it'd have to be emotional bond first. After that, it would depend on the circumstances whether we explored authority dynamics or sexuality first but I would guess it'd usually be sexuality.

I think, in general, I'm somewhat unusual in that I am willing and able to explore an authority dynamic fairly deeply, but it isn't a critical item to me.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to LadyPact)
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RE: Kinky Dating, BDSM, and Sex - 8/24/2009 5:21:37 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		For me, the kink comes with the sex.  I'm not an extreme Dom, so I assume that anyone who's a female submissive will be fine with all my kinks.  Besides, I would have picked off compatibility from hr profile anyway.

So for me, the first dates are about getting to know her vanilla side.  When I make a play for her, it will likely be on the second or third date, and the kink will be a part of the play.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to leadership527)
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RE: Kinky Dating, BDSM, and Sex - 8/24/2009 5:29:06 PM   
rideemwet


Posts: 93
Joined: 6/12/2009
Status: offline
quote:

But for the few relatations I've been in so far that have some bdsm context...


Thinking about this a bit, I don't consider natural dominant tendencies to be part of a "bdsm context". I'm just thinking in terms of fetish type activities.   I've certainly had what would be termed vanilla relationships but there was no doubt I was in charge and had the last word, not in a in-your-face way (not my style), but just that was the understanding.   I'd have to re-think all of my answers above if I were to assume that being in charge  meant I was involved in bdsm.



(in reply to rideemwet)
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RE: Kinky Dating, BDSM, and Sex - 8/24/2009 5:33:53 PM   
sravaka


Posts: 314
Joined: 6/20/2008
Status: offline 		FR, after read-thru

LadyP, I'm so glad you posted this!  It's something I puzzle over for my own purposes.

For me, there needs to be a very substantial interpersonal/intellectual connection before I even want to think about physical involvement (apart, perhaps, from that goodnight clench at the door).  But if things get to that point, I can't separate kink from sex-- to me they are equally intimate, and difficult to separate from each other regardless.  I can't imagine doing recreational beatings 'n' binding without having established enough intimacy on enough levels that it would be time for sex too, in my sadly old-fashioned view of these things.

Where it gets tricky for me is with the mental/emotional parts of D/s (independent of sex and kink alike).  If I've spent enough time getting to know someone online, and feel that inimitable domly vibe from him, I might end up calling him Sir or some such, or accepting little orders, or whatever.  And that does have the effect of advancing the relationship beyond normal vanilla bounds even before a meet.  Which in turn makes me more seducible when push comes to shove than I sometimes ought to be.  And can blind me to "vanilla" type concerns that don't become evident before spending good amounts of time together in person.

I want to be like Leadership when I grow up, and proceed in a fairly scrupulously "vanilla" manner for as long as it takes to ascertain how deep the compatibility goes.....   but i'm still working on it.


_____________________________

Miseries hold me fixed, and I would gladly cut these roots to become a floating plant. I would yield myself up utterly, if the inviting stream could be relied upon. --Ono no Komachi

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Kinky Dating, BDSM, and Sex - 8/24/2009 5:34:08 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I don't separate "bdsm" or "d/s" and "vanilla". They're all one and the same for me. When I would meet a man I was either attracted to him or I wasn't. If I was then he obviously is a dominant personality or I wouldn't be attracted to him in the first place and if that's the case I'm going to be submissive to his dominance.


(in reply to rideemwet)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Kinky Dating, BDSM, and Sex - 8/24/2009 5:42:06 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		~ Fast Reply ~

Reader's Digest version:  We talked online/phone for a couple of months, about everything under the sun beyond the D/s dynamic, while talking about basic D/s concepts, too.  We didn't talk of sex or even flirt.  We met for dinner, talked about family, friends, work, life, etc.  Had a nice sunset walk and kissed on the harbor overlooking the Bay.  Wow and good night.  We met again, talked about all sorts of things non-D/s.  Made out by the water before saying goodnight.  Talked a gazillion hours more in the next couple of weeks and I invited myself over because I wanted to see where/how he lived.  Sex, yes.  BDSM play, no.  Decided we want to commit to creating a relationship.  This was the third month into getting to know him.

We're now 5 months into this, in a committed relationship, and love each other.  BDSM play includes sex but sex doesn't  always include BDSM play (for us).  BDSM play is being very slowly incorporated.  I submit to him, and slowly he is having more and more authority over me.  The BDSM, D/s and M/s part of us is evolving slowly, hand in hand, and in its own natural course.   It's a big deal to both of us.  For us, love (and our trust in our love) needed to come first.


_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to rideemwet)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Kinky Dating, BDSM, and Sex - 8/24/2009 5:53:54 PM   
Roselaure


Posts: 672
Joined: 4/12/2008
Status: offline 		While BDSM is not all about sex for me (Is anything ever "all about" any one thing?), it is definitely connected.  BDSM, kink, physical sexuality, all kind of stroll hand in hand for me and would likely be the same for someone I'd consider myself compatible with.  I have had relationships that were predominantly about BDSM and very little sexuality and I found them to be essentially unsatisfying.  

_____________________________

Once conform, once do what other people do because they do it, and lethargy steals over all the finer nerves and faculties of the soul.
-Virginia Woolf

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Kinky Dating, BDSM, and Sex - 8/24/2009 6:03:58 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		Back when I was still looking, I went on a date with a bottom/submissive man who I met here. We didn't click, for various reasons, but he said something I thought was pretty insightful. "In the kinky community, we tend to approach dating backward from vanilla dating. Instead of getting to know each other as people, hobbies, friends, and such, kink and sex tends to come up first."

My Master and I met for dinner the first time, and he did a little discreet hair pulling and light biting (as well as lots of conversation, mostly vanilla) during the first date. We did play once at a kinky campout/playparty before making a commitment to each other, and I felt it was a good idea to help figure out compatibility. We also went to vanilla parties/get-togethers and on regular dates, though.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 20
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