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RE: Imposing your kink on others - 8/24/2009 2:37:16 PM

porcelaine

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Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally
We talk about the issue of consent frequently, that is what distances us from abuse, we choose our roles and who to implement them with. Therefore is treating another person out in the real world as a dominant or submissive crossing the line of consent? Or is it ok? Does this change dependent on context, the age old joke of being a slave at work.

Is it unrealistic to always set up consent? Is consent sometimes implied due to the social roles or does it become oppression?

regardless of what i may suspect a persons leanings may be it isn't my right or privilege to treat them as such. i have friends that are dominant and submissive. i make no distinction in how i treat them, nor would i do the same with a stranger. it only when a relationship or formal dynamic has been established (as with my mentor) that behaviors are augmented and in some instances changed. introducing those elements into a relationship without the other parties approval is a violation of their right to choose.

porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

Post #: 21

RE: Imposing your kink on others - 8/24/2009 2:59:13 PM

ShaktiSama

Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline

The terms of this question are much too vague. The assumption that you can always correctly "read" someone's orientation through social signals is seriously flawed, however.

I often find that submission can far too easily be confused with gallantry and courtesy in men. There are many male dominants who gladly open doors, use the word "Ma'am" in casual address, carry a heavy burden rather than leave it to a woman, or walk a female acquaintance to her car through darkened streets for the sake of safety. This does not mean that they have a submissive bone in their bodies, nor does it necessarily mean that they are asserting dominance over the woman in question. They are simply being true to themselves. Treating such a man as if his gesture was submissive OR dominant would be a grave social error and possibly very insulting--at minimum, it would be presumptuous and stupid. He's simply doing what he believes is right--being a good man.

Similarly, there are many ways that the orientation can be mistaken in a woman. The fact that a woman is an ardent feminist or that she has a responsible job and authority in the workplace does NOT mean that she is a female dominant in her personal life. Many female submissives are passionate feminists and many of them have careers which demand that they exercise authority at work. And even if a woman IS dominant both at work and at home, that doesn't mean that she wants to dominate YOU, or deal with your submissive needs and fantasies in an inappropriate venue--like when she's trying to prepare the briefs for a court case, or a presentation for a regional sales meeting. Until you have a clear go-ahead signal, imposing your submissive nature on her is just that--an imposition.

Personally, I think being too blatant about your kinky orientation with a stranger in public is a bad idea. Unless there is a blatant signal of bdsm identity--the mini flogger or handcuff keychain, the leather clothing, the symbols or tattoos associated with D/S--you're shooting in the dark even assuming that they are anything but vanilla. And even once you suspect a bdsm identity, until you have sone evidence of attraction or interest, you have the potential to cause offense by assuming that every kinky person in the world wants to assume a kinky role with YOU.

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

(in reply to IrishMist)

Post #: 22

RE: Imposing your kink on others - 8/24/2009 3:10:11 PM

rideemwet

Posts: 93
Joined: 6/12/2009
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My feeling is that *some* amount of dominance/submission is natural even in the vanilla world. For example, police officers are trained to take control of the situation, try to be overly dominant with a police officer who has pulled you over for a traffic offense and you'll find out what that means. While less extreme, our whole social structure has some implied cases where you are in charge or not in charge ... whether talking to your supervisor/employees/parents/children most people take a someone different stance or tone. Its just considered polite, proper ettiquete, or other vanilla social terms.

I know some people who *avoid* situations because they're natural inclination doesn't fit that situation. (Having experienced bdsm I think you get more tuned-in to the D/s dynamics sometimes?) One co-worker I know refused a good raise because it involved a *minor* supervisory role. I know her fairly well and she doesn't identify as a bdsm submissive ...

So its all becomes a question of extremes. Lots of *mild* forms of public D/s are perfectly acceptable. BDSM focuses on explicit prior consent because some of the activities can certainly appear both drastic and forced.

I don't think you need to set up prior consent if
1) its within the of normal vanilla world D/s behavior (as above)
or
2) it falls within the realm of things that implicit informed consent can be clearly withdrawn at any time

Vanilla sex often follows something along the lines of number 2, often sex just seems to escalate without ever having agreed to "fuck", but the implicit agreement (backed by legal controls like "rape" laws) is that either partner can bail at any point.

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

Post #: 23

RE: Imposing your kink on others - 8/24/2009 3:29:39 PM

MsFlutter

Posts: 1305
Joined: 11/12/2008
From: East Coast
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

My answer on this is that it's going to depend on the context. Where are you? What situation are you in? Who else are you dealing with?

I'm very much a whole picture kind of person. I want to look past the immediate. I don't just want to drop the pebble in the water. I want to know what's going to happen when I cause the ripples.

For example, I absolutely love resistance play. I love the screaming, crying, begging for mercy, absolute fear and terror that goes with it. Even in public venues where many types of play are acceptable, it may not be the best idea to conduct these scenes. I might be imposing My kink on others that may not wish to have that kind of exposure. Ergo, this is why I don't often do these kinds of scenes in public. That's not Me hiding that particular kink. It's Me being sensitive enough about those around Me who might be negatively impacted.

LOL - oh gawd I love this Lady!! We think so much along the same lines that LP saves me LOTS of keystrokes.

so....what she said !!

_____________________________

'Dont torture yourself, Gomez darling. That's my job' Morticia Addams

"The right data, filtered through an idiot, can yield a bad answer." einstien5201

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 24

RE: Imposing your kink on others - 8/24/2009 3:55:16 PM

DavanKael

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Joined: 10/6/2007
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Inherent to your question, I sense a separateness from the nature of a human being: I believe those dynamics of which you speak simply 'are', thus some people I am going to be naturally Dominant to (most), some people I am going to be naturally submissive to, and others there will be an interplay with.
Davan

_____________________________

May you live as long as you wish & love as long as you live
-Robert A Heinlein

It's about the person & the bond,not the bondage
-Me

Waiting is

170NZ (Aka:Sex God Du Jour) pts

Jesus,I've ALWAYS been a deviant
-Leadership527,Jeff

(in reply to IrishMist)

Post #: 25

RE: Imposing your kink on others - 8/24/2009 3:57:21 PM

LillyoftheVally

Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

Inherent to your question, I sense a separateness from the nature of a human being: I believe those dynamics of which you speak simply 'are', thus some people I am going to be naturally Dominant to (most), some people I am going to be naturally submissive to, and others there will be an interplay with.

Clearly i didn't state myself well enough. It is about intentionally, deliberately, and with prior thought, treating someone in a specific way there is a difference imo between knowingly doing it and it being natural

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

(in reply to DavanKael)

Post #: 26

RE: Imposing your kink on others - 8/24/2009 4:08:25 PM

DavanKael

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Joined: 10/6/2007
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If I am understanding your distinction, then, I would consider treating someone in an overtly particular way overstepping. That having been said, though, I'd find it impossible not to allow the ole energy to assess the energy of another (But, then again, that doesn't inherently imply action, just assessment).
Davan

_____________________________

May you live as long as you wish & love as long as you live
-Robert A Heinlein

It's about the person & the bond,not the bondage
-Me

Waiting is

170NZ (Aka:Sex God Du Jour) pts

Jesus,I've ALWAYS been a deviant
-Leadership527,Jeff

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

Post #: 27

RE: Imposing your kink on others - 8/24/2009 4:16:05 PM

DomImus

Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally
Therefore is treating another person out in the real world as a dominant or submissive crossing the line of consent?

Given the number of time I have heard or read the phrase "just because I am submissive does not mean that I am your submissive" I would say that the latter example would be crossing the line.

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

Post #: 28

RE: Imposing your kink on others - 8/24/2009 4:19:01 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

Inherent to your question, I sense a separateness from the nature of a human being: I believe those dynamics of which you speak simply 'are', thus some people I am going to be naturally Dominant to (most), some people I am going to be naturally submissive to, and others there will be an interplay with.

Clearly i didn't state myself well enough. It is about intentionally, deliberately, and with prior thought, treating someone in a specific way there is a difference imo between knowingly doing it and it being natural

what if "being natural" is "doing it" with everyone you come into contact with?

must one change who they are in order to be socially acceptable and not give the impression that they are trying to impose a "kink" on others when it is just how they are?

granted, some are that way for kink-related purposes...but what of the folks that are just plain submissive?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 8/24/2009 4:22:29 PM >

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

Post #: 29

RE: Imposing your kink on others - 8/24/2009 4:19:44 PM

MidMichCowboy

Posts: 665
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline

Well, I call women ma'am, because my mother taught me too. I'm polite to men, but I'm not subservient to anyone, even my boss.
I do have fairly good manners in public (again, from my parents and grandmother).
I've been called imposing because of who I am, but I've also been called emphatic because of how I've dealt with folks in crisis situations.
I am who I am.
Its hard to label someone without knowing them in different situations. I've known ladies who were submissive to one person who could raise holy hell in a business situation. I've known dominant women who were the kindest and gentlest caregivers I've ever know.
But, when I impose a D/s dynamic, the lady will know.

_____________________________

I want to capture your mind, your spirit, your soul, your body, your devotion and your love. Then, will I give you my heart.

(in reply to IrishMist)

Post #: 30

RE: Imposing your kink on others - 8/24/2009 4:44:14 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
what if "being natural" is "doing it" with everyone you come into contact with?

must one change who they are in order to be socially acceptable and not give the impression that they are trying to impose a "kink" on others when it is just how they are?

granted, some are that way for kink-related purposes...but what of the folks that are just plain submissive?

There are always limits imposed on us "being ourselves" in order to get along with the rest of humanity. For instance, if I was a natural mass murderer...

In a more on-topic example, if someone's natural self was to throw themselves at the feet of every male they see and beg to suck their cock, that would be overstepping any reasonable bounds that I can imagine if they tried it with me. I'm a lot more flexible if someone wants to call me "Sir" or get me a drink or whatnot. It might make me uncomfortable but as a part of "getting along", I also have an obligation to flex when I can.

If two people cannot or will not flex enough to fnd mutual ground, I call that "bad chemistry" or "mutually irreconcileable differences" and just move on.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 31

RE: Imposing your kink on others - 8/24/2009 5:09:26 PM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

I treat people the same, no matter what, on the first meeting. How I interact with them is determined as time goes on but I never make the mistake of treating someone like "my" submissive just because they act submissive nor do I make the mistake of treating someone as a D/s submissive just because there are indications that they might be. I am who I am and if they respond in a positive fashion to how I act, great. If someone is put off by my natural behavior, they will tell me and at that point, I have the choice to look at how I have behaved...which is what I would do anyway...and then decide to apologize and modify my behavior or to state that what their asking for in terms of a change in my behavior is too much of an imposition by them.

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

Post #: 32

RE: Imposing your kink on others - 8/24/2009 5:10:01 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

There are always limits imposed on us "being ourselves" in order to get along with the rest of humanity. For instance, if I was a natural mass murderer...

but this slave is not talking about mass murder...or anything else that would cause you harm.

quote:

...In a more on-topic example, if someone's natural self was to throw themselves at the feet of every male they see and beg to suck their cock, that would be overstepping any reasonable bounds that I can imagine if they tried it with me...

this slave wasn't inferring sexual advances, either.

quote:

... I'm a lot more flexible if someone wants to call me "Sir" or get me a drink or whatnot. It might make me uncomfortable but as a part of "getting along", I also have an obligation to flex when I can...

that's more along the lines of what this slave was talking about.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 8/24/2009 5:28:06 PM >

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 33

RE: Imposing your kink on others - 8/24/2009 5:15:11 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

*chuckles*

Sorry beth. It's an occupational hazard of us engineer types to explore the boundary conditions.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 34

RE: Imposing your kink on others - 8/24/2009 5:40:21 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

I treat people in the world with equal footing. I don't see them in any other way other than human. They get no special treatment unless they've proven to be someone worthy of such esteem.

Otherwise you get treated with civility and courtesy. I don't impose myself on others in any way.

(in reply to IrishMist)

Post #: 35

RE: Imposing your kink on others - 8/24/2009 5:47:03 PM

marie2

Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

We talk about the issue of consent frequently, that is what distances us from abuse, we choose our roles and who to implement them with. Therefore is treating another person out in the real world as a dominant or submissive crossing the line of consent? Or is it ok?
Is it unrealistic to always set up consent? Is consent sometimes implied due to the social roles or does it become oppression?

I don't really see how it's even possible to "treat" someone as a dominant or a submissive. I think there's such a thing as reacting to someone as dominant or submissive, but I think that has more to do with the natural chemistry that sometimes falls into place between two people. I don't see it as a consent issue.

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

Post #: 36

RE: Imposing your kink on others - 8/24/2009 6:25:27 PM

kallisto

Posts: 1185
Status: offline

I treat people in the "outside" world the same. I call them maam or sir. It's how I was raised (or to be correct, reared). I will offer to get women and men a drink or take their coat. With family/friends, after a party or shindig, I will stay around and help to clean up. It's not exerting my "submissiveness" to assist with the clean up. It's being polite, not being submissive to them. I will have a staff meeting with my staff at work and will sit at the "head" of the table ... not to be "dominant" but because as their manager, it's my place to run the meeting.

I don't think I put a "label" on anyone including myself outside of my relationship with my Dom. Being submissive is who I am, yes, but only His submissive.

(in reply to marie2)

Post #: 37

RE: Imposing your kink on others - 8/24/2009 10:47:52 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

So as not to derail the other thread with this question.

I have seen it a fair bit both in real life and on these boards where someone decides that another is dominant or submissive and treats them as such a bit like sixth sense 'I see domme people' but can it go to far?

We talk about the issue of consent frequently, that is what distances us from abuse, we choose our roles and who to implement them with. Therefore is treating another person out in the real world as a dominant or submissive crossing the line of consent? Or is it ok? Does this change dependent on context, the age old joke of being a slave at work.

Is it unrealistic to always set up consent? Is consent sometimes implied due to the social roles or does it become oppression?

Simply put it has been my experience in most aspects of life, that a willing follower is worth many unwilling ones with far more chance of a successful dynamic and happiness. This is one reason i rarely use "binding spells" (I care not if some don't believe in such things for I know they work and work effectively) on people. if they are to submit in some form or another to my will, I want them to do so willingly with full knowledge of what they are entering into. Should you force your will/kink on someone and you live to tell the tale, can you really be sure of the loyalty and love from them? Or will you spend sleeplessness nights wondering?....

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

Post #: 38

RE: Imposing your kink on others - 8/24/2009 11:01:56 PM

Esinn

Posts: 886
Joined: 6/23/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

So as not to derail the other thread with this question.

I have seen it a fair bit both in real life and on these boards where someone decides that another is dominant or submissive and treats them as such a bit like sixth sense 'I see domme people' but can it go to far?

We talk about the issue of consent frequently, that is what distances us from abuse, we choose our roles and who to implement them with. Therefore is treating another person out in the real world as a dominant or submissive crossing the line of consent? Or is it ok? Does this change dependent on context, the age old joke of being a slave at work.

Is it unrealistic to always set up consent? Is consent sometimes implied due to the social roles or does it become oppression?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_2692186/mpage_1/tm.htm
http://www.collarchat.com/m_2682230/mpage_1/tm.htm

The first being most relevant. The second interesting.

Acceptance me as a dom without me earning the right or addressing me as sir prior to the person me allowing me the right so I can demonstrate such authority . ..

Calling a slut a slut or placing a sub/slave UC without 'reason/right'? Is,to me well. . . .
Well, I already discussed it in length but if I recall not to complete satisfaction.

Just see threats. Don't say I never helped ya.

< Message edited by Esinn -- 8/24/2009 11:03:10 PM >

_____________________________

Let's break the law

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

Post #: 39

RE: Imposing your kink on others - 8/24/2009 11:17:11 PM

stella41b

Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline

To me people are people and remain as such until such time as I have some sort of relationship with them in real time. They may self-identify any way they choose and that is perfectly acceptable for me but they get treated as people and as individuals for who they are and no more until such a relationship exists where more is required.

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(in reply to porcelaine)

Post #: 40

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