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Faith and Fetish - 8/23/2009 2:12:40 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		most recently i've been mulling over this issue and would appreciate insight from others. at present i'm converting to Conservative Judaism which entails one year of study and the exploration and eventual adoption of different lifestyle and belief system. which i'm completely comfortable with. however, i'm curious to learn how those that have made similar changes in their lives have adapted on the relationship end.

do you find differences in your choice of mate, seek others of a similar vain, or leave things up in the air and allow the cards to fall as they may? lastly, for those that have encountered conflicts between the two, what did you do? i look forward to your response and thank you in advance.

porcelaine


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RE: Faith and Fetish - 8/23/2009 4:31:02 AM   
VanityFix


Posts: 141
Joined: 7/20/2009
Status: offline 		i once had 2 majorly conflicting views/lifestyles at a point my life,
at first i tried to hold onto both until the strain of a double life made me go a lil crazy, i found i had to chose which life i wanted to live, i picked the one that seemed deep down the healthiest and best.
take or leave my advice, but if you are going to have two opposed views it would probably be best to pick one and abandon the other, the sooner this is done the less grief you will have from hiding and being ashamed of parts of yourself. its the idea of serving two masters, it will tear you apart in order to please both.

< Message edited by VanityFix -- 8/23/2009 4:32:06 AM >

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RE: Faith and Fetish - 8/23/2009 4:49:10 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		well now this is a wierd one for me - i have always been a bit pagan/spiritual/christian all rolled into one and for the most part the men who have been in my life have gone along with it but from a very safe distance.

after i split from my last relationship i took some time out to concentrate on my spirituality, so in a way, though not so involved, i did what youre doing, i went deeper into the areas of my faith that were calling to me the loudest.

the wierd bit is, that since re-entering the natural worlds spirituality i keep bumping into men who openly accept and follow similar beliefs, though not actively pagan, they are actively accepting.

im not going to get all hippie on you hun, but its funny the way things work out along the way - just saying.

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RE: Faith and Fetish - 8/23/2009 6:06:09 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		First off, mazel tov.

I am Reform and unfortunately don't know the differences between Reform and Conservative, so I'll be answering from a Reform POV.

It's actually pretty easy respecting both Judaism and your partner's religion as long as there are no children.  Once the kids arrive, the question arises how they will be brought up.

My ex and I decided to bring our daughter up as a Christian.  I regret that now.

Pre-kids, simply agree that each of you will attend the other's services.


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RE: Faith and Fetish - 8/23/2009 8:15:25 AM   
porcelaine


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Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VanityFix

i once had 2 majorly conflicting views/lifestyles at a point my life,
at first i tried to hold onto both until the strain of a double life made me go a lil crazy, i found i had to chose which life i wanted to live, i picked the one that seemed deep down the healthiest and best.
take or leave my advice, but if you are going to have two opposed views it would probably be best to pick one and abandon the other, the sooner this is done the less grief you will have from hiding and being ashamed of parts of yourself. its the idea of serving two masters, it will tear you apart in order to please both.


i'm smiling as i read your words because i understand where you're coming from. it is so easy to say things will work out, but i really appreciate your point of view. sometimes the truth requires doing what is most challenging. thank you for sharing.

porcelaine


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RE: Faith and Fetish - 8/23/2009 8:18:49 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

well now this is a wierd one for me - i have always been a bit pagan/spiritual/christian all rolled into one and for the most part the men who have been in my life have gone along with it but from a very safe distance.

after i split from my last relationship i took some time out to concentrate on my spirituality, so in a way, though not so involved, i did what youre doing, i went deeper into the areas of my faith that were calling to me the loudest.

the wierd bit is, that since re-entering the natural worlds spirituality i keep bumping into men who openly accept and follow similar beliefs, though not actively pagan, they are actively accepting.

im not going to get all hippie on you hun, but its funny the way things work out along the way - just saying.


no i don't see you going hippie at all.

my circumstances are reversed and the conversion brings in a different set of dating rules per se. of course there's the obvious fact that people don't always identify themselves as Jewish and observant, particularly in this lifestyle. it is my understanding this is due to concerns about being outted. something that wasn't a big deal for me and for the most part isn't one now.

most of the men i meet seem to be interested in settling down and starting a family. the latter being something i didn't expect to do myself. i suppose if i had to find my own trippy moment that would be it. hopefully things will proceed as you've stated and sort themselves out in the long run. thanks for sharing.

porcelaine


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RE: Faith and Fetish - 8/23/2009 8:29:37 AM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

First off, mazel tov.

I am Reform and unfortunately don't know the differences between Reform and Conservative, so I'll be answering from a Reform POV.

It's actually pretty easy respecting both Judaism and your partner's religion as long as there are no children.  Once the kids arrive, the question arises how they will be brought up.

My ex and I decided to bring our daughter up as a Christian.  I regret that now.

Pre-kids, simply agree that each of you will attend the other's services.



shalom,

it isn't as cut and dry as that. particularly for a convert. if there was a long standing relationship that existed prior to the conversion, decisions would need to be made to address this. however, since i'm single the consensus would be that i'd date someone Jewish. the subject of intermarriage has generally be accepted/tolerated depending on the circles you're in. however, most would concur that it should not occur for reasons i'm sure you've heard and/or read.

the issue of children changes things completely. the shul i'm attending while Conservative has a very traditional approach to study and the conversion process. it is much more rigorous than most and embraces many things one would find on the Orthodox spectrum, without affixing rigidity and the necessity of instant compliance. however, if i planned to have additional children i would or should convert up to make things simpler on the child. which implies having an Orthodox conversion, since the other forms are not accepted by them. this would also entail having a partner who is willing to raise the child Jewish.

i suppose the challenges that dating would present were not a consideration for me when i decided to begin this process. i was merely following my heart. i never thought the one thing i adored dearly - my slavery, might be the very thing i must sacrifice as well. it is a sobering thought but i'm trying to remain positive.

porcelaine


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RE: Faith and Fetish - 8/23/2009 9:00:46 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
i never thought the one thing i adored dearly - my slavery, might be the very thing i must sacrifice as well. it is a sobering thought but i'm trying to remain positive.

porcelaine



You're being pessimistic.  It's probably easier to meet a Jewish man in NYC than in Israel.  You simply have to get a Dominant one.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: Faith and Fetish - 8/23/2009 9:16:15 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

You're being pessimistic.  It's probably easier to meet a Jewish man in NYC than in Israel.  You simply have to get a Dominant one.



how interesting. your sentiments are in direct opposition to most in the Jewish leather community. simply because many don't openly identify themselves in this manner largely due to fear of being outted. the challenges have been mentioned by persons both young and old. also, the difficulty of pairings are generally amplified when the religious elements are factored in.

porcelaine


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RE: Faith and Fetish - 8/23/2009 9:18:18 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		porcelaine, I meant to say that there are lots of Jewish men in NYC.

I had not thought of how tightly knit the Jewish community might be there...

Oops.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: Faith and Fetish - 8/23/2009 9:22:26 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

porcelaine, I meant to say that there are lots of Jewish men in NYC.

I had not thought of how tightly knit the Jewish community might be there...

Oops.



not to worry. i was merely going to ask for an introduction since you were in the know.

porcelaine


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RE: Faith and Fetish - 8/23/2009 9:33:30 AM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

most recently i've been mulling over this issue and would appreciate insight from others. at present i'm converting to Conservative Judaism which entails one year of study and the exploration and eventual adoption of different lifestyle and belief system. which i'm completely comfortable with. however, i'm curious to learn how those that have made similar changes in their lives have adapted on the relationship end.

do you find differences in your choice of mate, seek others of a similar vain, or leave things up in the air and allow the cards to fall as they may? lastly, for those that have encountered conflicts between the two, what did you do? i look forward to your response and thank you in advance.

porcelaine


Hi.
I have been studying Buddhism since I was 15. I was 'named' as a Tibetan Buddhist by a Lama (fleeing Chinese occupatin) in 1982.
I was an adult baptee, Christianed as an Anglo-Catholic in 2001.
In the former I am empowered by The Sky Dancer.
In the latter I am empowered by the Virgin Mary.
I have been practsing Tantric Sex since I was 18.
I also delve into my own form of Wicca.
Above all I believe in a Spirit greater than myself as a human being, and the instrument of that Spirit such as dharma and karma (for which I cannot find equivalent Judao-Christian terms). I beieve in signs and miracles.
There is a point at which all religions become a faith and all faith becomes a religion.
Faith to me is defined as belief in what is unseen and unevidenced. Although with faith many things become evident that previously were not.
I am a pilgrim. Life is a journey. And everyday as I grow nearer to death I am, believe me, sorely tested.
(This place tests me over and over and over).
So: if there were any dissonance between my faith and my fetish life i would hve tried the fetish out would I not and therefore drop the fetish.
The main test for me always amounts to this: do I believe in myself as a femnine principle enough that my relationship with Spirit is clear of conscience? When I go to sleep at night and say my eqivalence of prayer I simply hand it over. That's what I do to surrender.
I would like at some pint to be able to reconcile the way I am out with men of this world at the moment and try to be able to say I have surrendered to a man, found love, found my role, found a soul mate who values my surrender.
But alas.... the latest is not even answering his mail from me so I guess he's not up for surrender either. (lol as they say).
If I found anything in the principle of conversion which caused a rift within me: I would drop the conversion process. It's a choice BEFORE one is converted but not afterwards.




< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 8/23/2009 9:37:00 AM >

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RE: Faith and Fetish - 8/23/2009 10:15:09 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

I would like at some pint to be able to reconcile the way I am out with men of this world at the moment and try to be able to say I have surrendered to a man, found love, found my role, found a soul mate who values my surrender.
But alas.... the latest is not even answering his mail from me so I guess he's not up for surrender either. (lol as they say).
If I found anything in the principle of conversion which caused a rift within me: I would drop the conversion process. It's a choice BEFORE one is converted but not afterwards.


i would like to be able to say the same and will find some wiggle room if i can. my faith is of profound importance to me and the road to conversion has been a long one. i weighed this carefully and i'm certain this is what is right for me.

i'm sorry your potential has been unresponsive. perhaps he's having a hiatus from his keyboard.

i do believe there's room in my life for my religious beliefs and the lifestyle i've come to enjoy. finding how to make it fit together in a manner that brings joy and one that i can honestly live with will be the challenge. nonetheless i appreciate your insight and offer kudos to the spiritual progression and experiences you've had. many cannot say the same.

porcelaine


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RE: Faith and Fetish - 8/23/2009 11:02:56 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I'm Reconstructionist, we are the most accepting of the various forms of Judaism. Same sex partners et al are accepted without question. Non Jewish spouses/partners are limited to what they can do but welcomed to services.

He's non religious.

The only conflict I have is that he would rather I spend my time with him so I don't have the flexibility of deciding that it's 7:20, I'll run in and go to services. I have to plan it ahead and get dinner done ahead, and usually I don't do that.

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RE: Faith and Fetish - 8/23/2009 12:40:11 PM   
gentlemanprince


Posts: 127
Joined: 5/19/2008
Status: offline 		It seems that the problems of religiously mixed relationship are the same whether or not you are kinky. Children are a key issue. But my kids are grown and I have no desire for any more, so that isn't an issue for me. My lady is Christian, I'm Jewish, and we both respect the other. I would rather that she be Christian than have no religious beliefs at all.

When I saw the thread title, I thought it was going to be about whether kink could exist alongside a strong religious faith. I don't see any conflict between my kink and my Judaism.

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RE: Faith and Fetish - 8/23/2009 1:48:03 PM   
dreamerdreaming


Posts: 2839
Status: offline 		Your god wants you to have a fulfilling life, right?

Keep your kink, and enjoy it!

If I were you I would definitely seek a dom who is a practicing Jew (not just of that heritage, but actively ingaged in the religion), so that the two of you will be compatible in these very important ways. When you find him, you'll have a solid foundation of commonalities on which to build.

For a good, fulfilling LTR: start with someone who's a good match for you, both in and out of the bedroom.

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RE: Faith and Fetish - 8/23/2009 3:09:15 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamerdreaming

Your god wants you to have a fulfilling life, right?

Keep your kink, and enjoy it!

If I were you I would definitely seek a dom who is a practicing Jew (not just of that heritage, but actively ingaged in the religion), so that the two of you will be compatible in these very important ways. When you find him, you'll have a solid foundation of commonalities on which to build.

For a good, fulfilling LTR: start with someone who's a good match for you, both in and out of the bedroom.


it is much easier said than done. many people are simply uncomfortable admitting their participation or affinity for this lifestyle. it is a sentiment that has been expressed on many occasions by Jewish persons both young and old. while some special interest groups exist, the numbers are small. there is a general fear of rejection that keeps many participants silent. nonetheless i remain hopeful that i can have it all. or at the very least try my darnedest to get it.

porcelaine


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RE: Faith and Fetish - 8/23/2009 4:32:05 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I have a deep faith in God.

I found a Dominant man who had that same deep faith and similar morals, values and life interests.


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RE: Faith and Fetish - 8/23/2009 5:45:08 PM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		Hmmmm, interesting query.  It really depends on your own expectations as well as the tolerance of a potential mate. 
In a poly situation my ex- and I were involved in, the other couple was Jewish.  I learned to pray in Hebrew because their 5 year old wished me to (It upset him that I did not pray at Shabbat dinner and while I explained that I am not Jewish, learning and showing that respect for the happiness of a little one was fine by me).  My ex-, a rabid atheist, surprised me by reading out of the Haggada <spelling> at Passover one year to please the female.  The male and I had fabulous debates as I read all 613 laws and other religiously relevant texts; I found his selective application of his beliefs annoying often, lol!  I'm pretty live and let live but Judaism is one of those faiths where there is generally a strong emphasis on making babies within the faith and that's where I drew a very strong line.  Had progeny of which I was the biological mother been an issue, I was absolutely clear that anyone trying to come near a child that I birthed with something with which to mutilate said child's genitals was goin' down, covenant with God or no.  I would be willing to raise a child of mine with exposure to lots of different beliefs but body modification isn't something I would allow until said child was old enough to make the decision to modify its own body. 
  Davan

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RE: Faith and Fetish - 8/23/2009 5:51:27 PM   
Sunnyfey


Posts: 1436
Joined: 9/21/2007
From: OK
Status: offline 		We both share the same sort of nihilistic views on life...does that count?


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