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Options with alcoholic friend... - 8/8/2009 9:08:36 PM

Jeptha

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I have a friend who's knocking back a bottle and a half or so of red wine every night.

Anybody have any tips or advice for a situation like this?

I've heard that you just gotta set appropriate boundaries, maybe let them know about whatever treatment options are available, but, other than that, just let them run their own course until they themselves are ready to get help.

I sort of get that, but I wonder if there isn't something a little more proactive, since it seems like they could do some damage to themselves before they decide to get help.

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RE: Options with alcoholic friend... - 8/8/2009 9:11:38 PM

LadyPact

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Really, it's going to be up to them.

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RE: Options with alcoholic friend... - 8/8/2009 9:12:44 PM

SteelofUtah

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Go to any AA meeting and ask for Literature.

Then Give the Friend this literature and tell them you are worried and that it will be their choice no matter what but that you are worried about their health and it is time they took a look at that.

Maybe go and Buy them the Big Book - AA Program of Recovery and give it to him.

After that there is NOTHING more that you can do other than stop enabling that activity. If he drinks around you tell him you cannot be around him while drinking.

It may end the friendship or it may save the life the choice as always will be his.

Steel

5 years in recovery as of July 13th 2009

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RE: Options with alcoholic friend... - 8/8/2009 9:47:38 PM

Termyn8or

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Your options are nothing until you find out a couple of things. First of all is he really addicted ? To find this out take him somewhere at which he cannot drink and see how he tolerates that. If he is simply getting too inebriated for your taste, that does not equate with the definition of an addict. Now if he squirms or doesn't want to go that is an indication.

If your issue is mainly with his level of consumption, remember that in the old days in some countries people generally would drink that much in a day. Not everywhere but in some places.

However, there are other ways to find out things. Does he always drink the exact same wine ? If so offer another kind. Or even offer up some hard liquor. See what happens. If he declines hard liquor I doubt he has a real alcohol addiction, but more one to a certain type of drink. Think of it as soda for a moment, is he treating it like soda, or some valued substance like drugs or something ? His responses and reactions are what will clue you in. It may be like Pepsi to him, and if that is the case, while an addiction, it is not necessarily an addiction to alcohol.

That is not saying that makes it easy to beat.

If he is actually alcoholic, throwing AA in his face is sure to alienate him, and that doesn't sound too productive. In fact if and when he wants to beat it, if he has it, friends who (generally at least) don't imbibe are essential. Whatever it is, know what you are up against.

T

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RE: Options with alcoholic friend... - 8/8/2009 10:34:53 PM

SteelofUtah

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Term, I am sorry but I fully disagree.

The Literature from AA is designed to ask you to come to your own decision on if you are an Alcoholic or not.

Yes It MAY alienate him, but playcating the drinking that is bothering you and doing what you are suggesting will create a situation where you could get false reads.

Alcoholism can be determined BEFORE you get to the I can't sit still without a drink and Recovery when caught early is much more likely to succeed than by waiting till the Serosis of the Liver is Actually there.

I am an Alcoholic who rarely drank at all but when I did I would Binge Drink until I was knock down black out drunk. My Father was a two or three cocktails a day drinker unless he was stressed and then he drank from the bottle. BOTH are Alcoholics.

I believe that giving him an OPTION to Recover is better than doing tests to determine if he has a problem. Obviously someone thinks he has a problem and that is all it takes to extend a hand of Friendship and possibly show him what is going on.

Ultimatly anything other than speaking up about it is simply enabling the problem.

I do agree however before you go about asking your friend if he is an alcoholic I would ask what harm other than his own is his drinking causing is he getting out of hand if your only concern is the ammount that he is drinking then I would say hold off until it becomes an issue.

In the mean time Jeptha Maybe you might want to Go to a few Ala-non meetings because there you will find friends and family of alcoholics who can help you with the decision you are about to make.

If you call your Local AA Office they will tell you where there is an Ala-non meeting in your area.

Steel

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RE: Options with alcoholic friend... - 8/8/2009 10:38:13 PM

DomKen

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My mother was an alcoholic and it killed her.

To be blunt AA is a joke. Don't bother unless in your opinion the person has an exceptionally malleable personality. You'll likely hear all sorts of anedotes about it but the facts are that the relapse rate is staggering.

Intervene. Get this person's friends and family together and confront him. You have to apply some tough love, likely enough he thinks he has it under control or that no one knows. Get him to get into an in patient treatment program and get detoxed.

When he gets out of treatment you have to provide support and structure to change the behaviour that led to the excessive drinking.

Or you can bury him when the time comes.

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RE: Options with alcoholic friend... - 8/8/2009 10:43:53 PM

DavanKael

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Is this a new behavior and, if so, is there a precipitating event?
I agree that people need to come, in their own time, unless they're harming others, to altering their behaviors.
In my opinion and from all of the research I have ever read, 12-step program success is abysmal. I despise the non-secular aspect, built in failure, trading one addiction for another, the fact that it hasn't changed since the 1930's, etc. That having been said, I was close with someone who'd gotten clean using that system 21 years before: it was my opinion that it was his decision to do so and that the program sucks but < shrug >.
I would look into hospital-based detox facilities for safety in getting through the withdrawal and physical ramifications there-of as well as moving into the psychological work. I would also recommend looking into psychologists or other counselors in you friend's area that specialize in addictions treatment.
Certainly if this is someone that you care about, you and others who care about him or her could sit them down and explain what you are seeing. It will likely be met with denial.
Such things are difficult.
Davan

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RE: Options with alcoholic friend... - 8/8/2009 10:52:57 PM

SteelofUtah

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

My mother was an alcoholic and it killed her.

To be blunt AA is a joke. Don't bother unless in your opinion the person has an exceptionally malleable personality. You'll likely hear all sorts of anedotes about it but the facts are that the relapse rate is staggering.

Intervene. Get this person's friends and family together and confront him. You have to apply some tough love, likely enough he thinks he has it under control or that no one knows. Get him to get into an in patient treatment program and get detoxed.

When he gets out of treatment you have to provide support and structure to change the behaviour that led to the excessive drinking.

Or you can bury him when the time comes.

You can feel how you want about AA, It saved my life and gave me a support group that helped me thorugh the hard times. I do not see myself as having an "exceptionally malleable personality" but you are free to think what you want.

However your relapse rate is IDENTICAL In Rehab, Medical, and Religious Recovery. AA is an Anonymous Program so there is NO way to get a statistic on it, however most Rehabs will tell you that 65% or More of their Patients will return for another Detox, if they return at all.

Addicton is a Disease on my opinion, many people disagree and that is fine, I see it as something that the drinking is a Symptom of not the problem, Drinking is what you turned to to solve some problem and you will continue on until it stops working and then you will seek something else. For me I had to come to terms with the fact that I do not drink like normal people, I do not do drugs recreationally I find something I like and I abuse it and so I need to stay away from destructive substances because I lose control with them.

I am an Advocate for AA, NA, and CoDA I think the work well because you aren't alone. In an Intervention it is YOU Vs. EVERYONE WHO IS SUPPOSED TO LOVE YOU, Getting defensive is easy and walking out is common in fact there is a Statistic that rarely gets show is the number of people who commit Suicide AFTER an intervention It is interesting you should look it up Dr Drew did an Article on it but I could not find it and it is late.

AA Meetings might have a High Relapse Rate but tell me ANYTHING that does not have an EQUAL one? What works Better? What is Proven to Work? Nothing. The cold hard Truth is it all comes down to the individual and if they have the desire to change. Most Addicts Don't, I did, AA is how I did it.

Steel

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RE: Options with alcoholic friend... - 8/8/2009 11:06:56 PM

littlewonder

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Be a friend, tell them how you feel and that you're concerned for them, give them options such as AA and/or rehab, dr's, etc..but other than that there's not much you can do.

I've been tons and tons of alcoholics my entire life and nothing I ever did amounted to any good whatsoever. My only and best option always was to simply walk away from them and tell them I couldn't be there to watch them kill themselves.

You can't force people to do anything. All you can do is show them you care and then let them make the decisions for themselves.

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 9

RE: Options with alcoholic friend... - 8/8/2009 11:07:42 PM

TheHeretic

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Before this all turns into an AA good/bad thread, is this something new with him? You can be a drunk without being an alcoholic. Is there something else going on with your friend that is reflecting in excessive drinking? A few years back, a family member was hitting the wine far more frequently and heavily than anyone had ever seen before. It wasn't rehab, she needed, but a new job. She was back to an occasional glass or two within a week of starting a different job.

Don't assume the drinking is the disease. It might just be a symptom.

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RE: Options with alcoholic friend... - 8/8/2009 11:33:31 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah
AA Meetings might have a High Relapse Rate but tell me ANYTHING that does not have an EQUAL one? What works Better? What is Proven to Work? Nothing. The cold hard Truth is it all comes down to the individual and if they have the desire to change. Most Addicts Don't, I did, AA is how I did it.

The therapy that shows the most promise is Behaviour Modification Therapy.
http://www.behavior-analyst-online.org/newIJBCT/IJBCT%20-VOL-3/IJBCT-3-1.pdf (page 77)

You may not like it but the best estimates of relapse from AA alone is virtually identical to the relapse rates of people who aren't getting any treatment.

I prefer not to get into personal anecdotes but I saw my mother try 12 steps over and over again. I came to dread her melancholy apologies for her failings when she got to step 9. The fact is that hanging out with drunks with repeated reminiscences about their drinking days isn't a way to change the behavior of people who drink too much. I saw my mother fail over and over again. I saw her come staggering in drunk often with her newest sponsor in tow after she supposedly went to a meeting. I went to the alanon meetings where I was told that I was somehow at fault for my mother's disease (it's an illness she had but I was somehow responsible? WTF!). All in all I came away convinced of this one supreme truth people who get better and attend AA got better despite not because of AA.

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 11

RE: Options with alcoholic friend... - 8/9/2009 1:47:22 AM

SteelofUtah

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From: St George Utah
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The therapy that shows the most promise is Behaviour Modification Therapy.
http://www.behavior-analyst-online.org/newIJBCT/IJBCT%20-VOL-3/IJBCT-3-1.pdf (page 77)

You may not like it but the best estimates of relapse from AA alone is virtually identical to the relapse rates of people who aren't getting any treatment.

Again any number that can be given is complete BULLSHIT! Because it is an Anonymous Program there is no Records and there is no responsibility to anyone so many people do relapse and many people just stop going. The Program of Recovery is one that says YOU are responsible for YOUR recovery, Own up to your Problem see that it is YOU doing it Stop Blaming the world and CHOOSE to make things better.

I am SOOO Sorry that you Mother died of this Disease, but if she relapsed, it was because she wasn't done. If she wanted to stop, the program has never failed ANYONE but so many people fail the program.

Knowing what I know about recovery I can say this, NOTHING is fool proof people relapse and get fucked up and die it is a circle that cannot be ignored, but if you want to blame the program you need to get out of the denial that you mother was a grown person who made a choice everytime she went to the bottle instead of a meeting and SUPPORT!

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I prefer not to get into personal anecdotes but I saw my mother try 12 steps over and over again. I came to dread her melancholy apologies for her failings when she got to step 9. The fact is that hanging out with drunks with repeated reminiscences about their drinking days isn't a way to change the behavior of people who drink too much. I saw my mother fail over and over again. I saw her come staggering in drunk often with her newest sponsor in tow after she supposedly went to a meeting.

Everything you stated above I cannot deny I see it all the time myself, I see people with no concept of the program being a "Sponsor" to someone who is looking for another person who won't call them on thier bullshit and won't set boundries that help a person come to terms with what they are. You Mother chose her sponsor they don't just hand them out. She went to those people she came home drunk with and asked them to sponsir her because she knew they would be a friend and NOT a Sponsor. I am again sorry for this it is sad to hear of anyone who dies to the disease, perhaps it was too difficult for her, if that is the case NO MODEL FOR RECOVERY WILL WORK PERIOD!

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I went to the alanon meetings where I was told that I was somehow at fault for my mother's disease (it's an illness she had but I was somehow responsible? WTF!). All in all I came away convinced of this one supreme truth people who get better and attend AA got better despite not because of AA.

Okay This upsets me because it is easier to believe you are making this up then to believe there is some Ala-non meeting out there that is COMPLETELY going against all the Steps and Traditions of Ala-non.

The BASIC Idea of Ala-Non is

"You didn't cause it.
You Can't cure it.
And you CAN'T CONTROL IT!" >>Link to a Good Article<<

Absolutely NO ONE I KNOW has EVER HEARD ANYONE in Ala-non say you should blame yourself.

I don't know how many times you went or who you listened to but that is NOT the message of Alanon. Seriously I literally have to believe you made that up because when things like that get said in meetings anyone who has been there for longer than a few meetings will recite that you can't fix your Alcoholic and that Ala-non is about understanding and COPEING with what they are.

quote:

All in all I came away convinced of this one supreme truth people who get better and attend AA got better despite not because of AA.

When I read or hear this (And this is not the first time I have heard this) I always just want to hold them and tell them I am sorry for their loss but that AA makes no promises that YOUR alcoholic will recover but they can if they want to. I can understand that you are angry that your mother died, but it is not AA's Fault that she died.

In Recovery I will not go to your home and throw out your alcohol, but I will go with you if you want my help doing so. I will not call you every day to see if you are still sober, but I will give my number and go get a cup of coffee with you at 3am when you feel like drinking and talk to you about what that would mean. I will not lock you in a room until you are clean of your last binge, but if you call me I will be there for you while you do, be it in a Hospital or your home I will be there for you and I will love you until you learn to love yourself because someone did it for me once when I couldn't do it for myself.

The Nature of Recovery is a personal one. AA works for MILLIONS world wide just attend any World AA Event and you will see that. But REHAB works for MILLIONS world wide so much they made a TV show about it. Therapy/Aversion Psychotherapy I am sure it works too. Here is the difference. Rehab will cost you on average $5000.00 or more for a 28 day program. Therapy could cost you from $100 to $1000 per session.

AA Costs Nothing and if you do choose to give to help your group be self supporting it will cost you a Dollar a meeting, or your pocket lint, no one hands you a bill when you are done. The Literature is EXTREMELY aforable, most pamplets are free and books are usually under $25.00 and if you stand up and say in a meeting that you would like a book but cannot afford one Dime to Dollar someone will GIVE you one.

Just some food for thought.

Steel

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RE: Options with alcoholic friend... - 8/9/2009 5:19:08 AM

Acer49

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeptha

I have a friend who's knocking back a bottle and a half or so of red wine every night.

Anybody have any tips or advice for a situation like this?

I've heard that you just gotta set appropriate boundaries, maybe let them know about whatever treatment options are available, but, other than that, just let them run their own course until they themselves are ready to get help.

I sort of get that, but I wonder if there isn't something a little more proactive, since it seems like they could do some damage to themselves before they decide to get help.

While setting bountries and restrictions is fine, but until the addicted person decides they needs help, most of your efforts will have little effect

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RE: Options with alcoholic friend... - 8/9/2009 5:39:21 AM

LaTigresse

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AA and it's associated groups are only as good as the people running them in that area.

Similarly, people do not fail the programme, they fail themselves. The reality is that some people will never quit their addiction or problem behaviour because it is more important to them than anything else in their lives. Or, they have simply spent so many years learning to walk that edge between allowing it to destroy them and everything in their lives, or functioning enough to give the appearance of functioning just fine.

In my life, with several addicts, two of which have quit and begun more times than I can count, all you can do is accept them as they are. Love them, let them know that I do not support their destructive behaviour and that I will not allow it around me and mine. That means they will often not be invited into my home, I will often not go to theirs, and that the children in my lives will be kept away from them when they are intoxicated. Both drunks have limited relationships with children, grandchildren, great grand children. They are both smart enough to know that it is their own doing.

Very few people in my family sugar coat reality. Some may be scared of it and pretend it doesn't exist, but when faced with it, tend to be honest. The alchoholics know their boozing alienates them from those they love yet they choose to continue to drink. They also know the damage it has done, and continues to do to their bodies, yet they choose to continue to drink. They know that their next bender could send them to the morgue instead of the hospital, yet they continue to drink.

They make their choices. They are adults. I am an adult and make my choices as to how to allow theirs to affect me and those that I can protect.

If your friend is young and the drinking is a new thing, talking to them, confronting them, may help. It's worth a shot. Just know that it also may end the friendship. If indeed it is an addiction there is a very real chance that they choose the addiction over the friendship.

Ultimately, they have to see the problem themself and want to make the change. Otherwise it's never going to happen.

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Post #: 14

RE: Options with alcoholic friend... - 8/9/2009 5:54:16 AM

Aileen1968

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RE: Options with alcoholic friend... - 8/9/2009 6:34:01 AM

estah

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I grew up around drinkers, all of the addicts...I wish we had a program like AA near us so I could have got help in understanding this addiction more and maybe even help on or two of my family to find their way to help.

Steel I am agreeing with you 100% on this one. And congratulations on the five years.

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Post #: 16

RE: Options with alcoholic friend... - 8/9/2009 7:20:05 AM

Musicmystery

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Jeptha,

You might want to read the Big Book yourself--it has people's experience talking to alcoholics. You don't want to simply have them dig in their heels, yet you do want them to start to see reality. It's difficult for an alcoholic. Ask anyone who stopped drinking--you will hear a story of how clear signs and behaviors were rationalized away for years. And as others have said above, they drink for reasons, emotional reasons that complicated the process and favor continuing the abuse. It does indeed progress until it becomes so bad it kills or forces change.

Call AA and get some literature (are you an alcoholic, stuff like that perhaps) and a schedule of meetings. Leave them with your friend "just in case." In time, people do come around.

As some critics above have shared, AA is not a panacea, but neither should it be dismissed as a joke. I want to strongly stress this next point: Giving up alcohol is nearly impossible to do alone for an alcoholic (and then stay sober long term). Further, it's difficult for nonalcoholics to really understand what's going on inside the alcoholic, sober or not. This is where AA is invaluable. It's primary point is "talk to another alcoholic every day." It's a support system. The alcoholic can pick up the phone anytime or attend any of several meetings every day and share with/listen to other alcoholics. It also encourages the alcoholic step by step to live a proactive life, examine the closets of problems that led to the drinking (and threaten to restart it), and to move beyond with a more realistic focus on the world, not just oneself.

You might also attend an open Al-Anon meeting and gather suggestions there.

Be patient. Bring the message, be supportive, be there without enabling. Hope it's enough.

Good luck to you both.

Tim

(in reply to estah)

Post #: 17

RE: Options with alcoholic friend... - 8/9/2009 7:42:48 AM

DomKen

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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah
The Program of Recovery is one that says YOU are responsible for YOUR recovery, Own up to your Problem see that it is YOU doing it Stop Blaming the world and CHOOSE to make things better.

Actually the first step of AA, and about half the others, is about dumping responsibility for your recovery onto a 'higher power.'

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I went to the alanon meetings where I was told that I was somehow at fault for my mother's disease (it's an illness she had but I was somehow responsible? WTF!). All in all I came away convinced of this one supreme truth people who get better and attend AA got better despite not because of AA.

Okay This upsets me because it is easier to believe you are making this up then to believe there is some Ala-non meeting out there that is COMPLETELY going against all the Steps and Traditions of Ala-non.

The BASIC Idea of Ala-Non is

"You didn't cause it.
You Can't cure it.
And you CAN'T CONTROL IT!" >>Link to a Good Article<<

Absolutely NO ONE I KNOW has EVER HEARD ANYONE in Ala-non say you should blame yourself.

I don't know how many times you went or who you listened to but that is NOT the message of Alanon. Seriously I literally have to believe you made that up because when things like that get said in meetings anyone who has been there for longer than a few meetings will recite that you can't fix your Alcoholic and that Ala-non is about understanding and COPEING with what they are.

Alanon isn't a support group for family and friends of alcoholics. It is quite simply an AA group for people who aren't themselves alcoholics. They even try to shove the 12 steps down the throats of alanon members but twist it around so that they basically claim you need to recover from enabling the alcoholic's drinking. Which for most of the children of alcoholics is the worst kind of bullshit.

But no matter what saying that someone else enables an alcoholic's drinking is equivalent to shifting responsibility off the drunk and onto his family and friends. Which might sometimes be true but in most cases isn't.

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 18

RE: Options with alcoholic friend... - 8/9/2009 8:00:06 AM

MissCake

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The first, most important thing is to encourage your freriend to see his doctor. The doctor is in the best position to determine where your friend is healthwise and if a detox program will be needed. They can refer to local specialists and help locate community resources.

Many alkies refuse good help that is offered, no matter how or who or when it is offered. We are not ready or willing or even interested in saving our own lives. The truth is, there's a zillion ways that work for people who catch that moment of clarity and decide to live instead of die. And there is nothing which will work for the person who continues in the death wish.

Part of how friends can really help is to remind the peerson about the joy still accessible to them in the world - that hope is not lost - that challenges are surmountable. And not cosign or enable bullshit.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 19

RE: Options with alcoholic friend... - 8/9/2009 8:09:38 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

Actually the first step of AA, and about half the others, is about dumping responsibility for your recovery onto a 'higher power.'

Step One: We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, and that our lives had become unmanageable.
Step Four: Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
Step Ten: Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

These three alone would be worth the trouble. In fact all people would do well to look at the aspects of their lives that aren't in control, and to take a continuing realistic look at themselves and their situations.

The rest of the steps address solving the problems and continuing forward with more realistic outlooks. No doubt, the founders of AA (and many of its current participants) were religious people, and no surprise, in times of great distress, they turned to God as they saw him for a solution. This is hardly unique to these people--its a trait of religious people everywhere, all religions.

The "Higher Power" language was an attempt to stress an inclusive program, one encouraging a spiritual path rather than a religion. Granted, as their mindset was so firmly Christian, they pretty much failed at the attempt, but the intention is still there and surfaces all along the way.

The point is to face reality, to come to see that the alcoholic life is insanely unmanageable, and to move forward realistically, both in terms of initial recovery and in a purposeful, worthwhile continued life in sobriety. And yes, part of that realism is accepting help, using available support from others. This is hardly "dumping responsibility." In fact, continuing on stubbornly insisting on doing everything oneself would be childish in the face of obvious poor results. We all turn to others for help in their areas of expertise when needed, as well as to friends for support. This is no different.

Yes, religion can fuck it up a bit. Religion also fucks up politics, community, education, human rights and a host of other problems every day--these in fact are fiercely debated at large and on these forums.

Victim mentality is common in our culture. Here, it's about standing up and doing something, rather than continuing down a destructive path, whatever the reasons for the drinking initially.

Now...

Perhaps, if you wish an AA debate thread, you might start one, and leave Jeptha's thread in peace.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/9/2009 8:12:33 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 20

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