RE: the role of punishment (Full Version)

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daddysprop247 -> RE: the role of punishment (6/25/2009 12:24:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527


Which maybe explains why it is different for Carol & I. For us, it is not a "physical, visceral bond" and so we don't need a "physical, visceral component" to our problem solving scheme. It'd make a lot of sense though that if all this was more physical to us, we'd want that.


hmm, you make me think Leadership (which can be a bad thing, lol). i'm not sure how much of "all this" is physical for us. for us "all this" means quite a bit...a Master/slave dynamic, a Father/daughter relationship, love between soulmates, a best friendship. there often is no clear separation between the varying components of who we are, they all just tend to flow together. we are very physical in general...lots of cuddling, lots of kissing and hugging (yeah yeah mushy i know), lots of walking around with his hand around my neck, lots of sexual service and use, lots of physical discipline and some physical punishment. but none of it exists on its own, it's all part of the greater picture of who we are.

and there is no scening, no bdsm "play," no standing orders to be nude and crawling 24 hours a day, lol. in many ways we tend to think our relationship as being very "old school." old school as in, male Dominant HoH, endlessly subservient little homemaker female. and the thing with "old school" is that sometimes things would get quite "physical." gotta keep the little lady in check and all. [:D]





leadership527 -> RE: the role of punishment (6/25/2009 12:46:37 PM)

*laughs*

Or, we could simply go with an Occam's razor approach. I'm beginning to wonder if we're over-analyzing this. Perhaps it's as simple as:

I am, in general, a gentle person. Therefor, the corrective measures that I take are gentler and more subtle. Clearly, they still exist and just as clearly they are effective. Carol's behavior has modified. Something I'm doing is both incenting and disincenting her to behave in particular ways.

This makes me consider how I behaved at work. People who knew me well would laugh and say, "You know what Jeff? You only have first and fourth gears." So if someone was blocking my progress, I would generally persuade or in some other way, manipulate the situation subtly. If things got more out of hand (a situation which seldom occurred because I'm very good at being subtle), then it was a blood sport. At that point, there was no amount of escalation I was unwillling to do. Someone was going to get fired -- them or me.

Clearly that 2nd option is just not tenable with Carol which means I lean on the first option.

As I go back to my parenting of my children, I also realize that some of the advice that I really took to heart (meaning obviously that it resonated with me) was that as a parent you should have an absolutely minimum number of rules. But those rules you have you can NEVER lose on. They must be enforced utterly. That would also mirror how I treat Carol. A lot of stuff doesn't reach the level of "rule" and I am pretty flexible. For those things that do reach that level, then I am utterly implacable. Forget about punishment, I won't even allow the initial infraction (direct disobedience is a good example of that).



daddysprop247 -> RE: the role of punishment (6/25/2009 1:00:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetsmileyone

I dont think punishment is meant to be strictly physical...


that is a very good point sweetsmileyone, that we shouldn't forget. punishment need not be physical, and even a physical punishment has other components. often it is the punishments which have no physical element at all which tend to be the most severe.

(i.e. total release)



cromaH -> RE: the role of punishment (6/25/2009 1:13:06 PM)

  What I wrote not my own opinion, but it is a psychological theory. There is the big problem that the pain as external stimuli (sensitivity)   is unable to produce pleasure by oneself. The reaction comes into existence with the help of the fetish (is it  a fantasy only?). Does the fetish settle down in the unconscious one (“unbewusst” by Freund).  Nobody can recognize this mysterious part of the brain.   We know so much only that the fetishes are very different (whip, clothes, foot etc.) but it is very interesting the women have fetish NEVER! They are real beings but very many female subs are existing. The HUMILIATION is common in the two groups only.



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: the role of punishment (6/25/2009 5:09:30 PM)

It's interesting -- every so often, a conversation comes around that makes me re-consider some of my current modes of behavior, and some things that I had previously dismissed. Punishment may very well be one of those things. It occurs to me that there may be occasions where a situation doesn't really -need- the prolonged 'discipline' to correct it... where a brief expression of my displeasure, perhaps physically, perhaps verbally, short, abrupt, and swift, might be exactly what is needed.

I wonder, now, if I have been making some of the process of keeping servants more difficult than it needs to be by making every situation a 'learning experience'... I wonder if, perhaps, a quick and decisive response might make life smoother for all of us... and might make the process of discipline even -stronger-, as it is refined for those situations where re-training is necessary beyond swift correction.

Thank you all, for your interesting commentary!

Dame Calla



janiebelle -> RE: the role of punishment (6/25/2009 5:46:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

It's interesting -- every so often, a conversation comes around that makes me re-consider some of my current modes of behavior, and some things that I had previously dismissed. Punishment may very well be one of those things. It occurs to me that there may be occasions where a situation doesn't really -need- the prolonged 'discipline' to correct it... where a brief expression of my displeasure, perhaps physically, perhaps verbally, short, abrupt, and swift, might be exactly what is needed.

I wonder, now, if I have been making some of the process of keeping servants more difficult than it needs to be by making every situation a 'learning experience'... I wonder if, perhaps, a quick and decisive response might make life smoother for all of us... and might make the process of discipline even -stronger-, as it is refined for those situations where re-training is necessary beyond swift correction.

Thank you all, for your interesting commentary!

Dame Calla


Sometimes, yes, a quick whack!  "have you lost your mind?" is more to the point, effective, and much easier than the lecture/retraining appraoch.
Also, when using punishment to correct unwanted behavior, an appropriate level of force the first time out eliminates the possibility of desensitizing people to your corrections.  Often human nature is to use a minimal degree of severity to correct a behavior.  But when you use that approach, you run the risk of having to escalate that force at each incident until you finally "break through" the behavior barrier.  But with each application of inadequate force, the level you have to reach to finally break the behavior will be much more severe than if a greater level of force were used initially, and been effective on the first try.  These priciples of behavior apply across the board to most animals, and people.
Just more food for thought.
j



sugrdaddydom -> RE: the role of punishment (6/25/2009 6:07:46 PM)

May I suggest that there is a distinction between punishment and discipline.  What vanilla couples would consider punishing can in fact a regular and enjoyable aspect of the BDSM relationship.  So when the correction of undesireable behaviors is called for, the discipline must take on a different form.  In this case I prefer to withhold favors as a negative reinforcement and offer rewards as a positive reinforcement for exhibiting good behavior.  Ironically, it is often required to withhold the punishments as a disciplinary measure to correct bad behavior.  The fact that the submissive is denied what they desire the most is a powerful motivation to correct misbehaviors.



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: the role of punishment (6/25/2009 7:09:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sugrdaddydom

May I suggest that there is a distinction between punishment and discipline.  What vanilla couples would consider punishing can in fact a regular and enjoyable aspect of the BDSM relationship.  So when the correction of undesireable behaviors is called for, the discipline must take on a different form.  In this case I prefer to withhold favors as a negative reinforcement and offer rewards as a positive reinforcement for exhibiting good behavior.  Ironically, it is often required to withhold the punishments as a disciplinary measure to correct bad behavior.  The fact that the submissive is denied what they desire the most is a powerful motivation to correct misbehaviors.


I think that it is important to separate physical play like flogging, etc., done for the pleasure of both parties from either punishment or discipline. I think that if one is doing something for fun, it is not "punishment", and calling physical play 'punishment' dilutes the whole concept of punishment/discipline.

If you're doing it for fun, roleplay, or foreplay, it isn't punishment or discipline, it is FUN... and yes, sometimes, if you have someone who, say, enjoys being paddled or flogged or bound or whatever, and xhe behaves inappropriately, you lose the ability to paddle, flog, or bind hir as punishment or discipline, because those elicit a different response than consideration and correction... and trying to get that beating to serve double duty is just confusing. Dealing with a person who is 'turned on' by pain requires different disciplinary methods than for a person who avoids pain at all costs. This is just common sense.

Dame Calla



justme1980 -> RE: the role of punishment (6/25/2009 7:12:56 PM)

For me, it is a totally different mind set. but since I am a "good girl" I rarely get punished



mnottertail -> RE: the role of punishment (6/25/2009 7:15:19 PM)

Actions have consequenses..........end of joke.

Where there is no will, there is no way.




QuixoticErrant -> RE: the role of punishment (6/25/2009 7:30:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Samm24

If I see this correctly I find that there are two major ways in which punishment is used in bdsm:

It is used to,

quote:

correct an undesirable behavior


In this case punishment should not be enjoyed by the sub, because obviously the sub should learn from it and not want to be punished again.

But on the other hand, punishment is seen as part of a roleplay where one (acts that he/she) has done something wrong and therefore has to be punished by the Dom(me). In this case the punishment is often something the sub enjoys like being tied up and spanked.

Probably everyone has his/her own vision about punishment, so I'm wondering how do you use punishment?

I don't really see why people want to use punishments that the sub doesn't enjoy, because that would take the fun out of the play, wouldn't it? Or maybe it is just my vision that it should be fun for both.


The answer is that indeed everyone has their own vision of punishment as a concept, let alone a manifestation of it.

For me, my two cents, and others may use the words differently, I distinguish between punishment and correction.

Correction is something done to correct a behavior that was not intentionally defiant, or to correct a mistake. For instance, posture training can require a lot of correction. Frequently this is fun for the submissive (and me), and honestly, I see correction as one of the back bones of the whole thing, because it gives clear things to submit to and instant feedback.

Punishment though is reserved for open defiance, shirking of duties or intentional errors. There are those who argue that there should never be punishment. I will say that it is neither fun for me or her when it has to happen. The fact is that I am disappointed. Exactly what makes a good punishment depends on way way too many variables to list. But as a general rule I think it is vital to:

1. Be absolutely clear what the punishment is for and why.

2. Be as appropriate as possible. If she is submitting to a punishment it is because she wants to get back into your good graces and be "absolved." If you drive her off with something that seems arbitrary, she may well walk.

3. Be creative. Make it something that sticks. What that is depends completely on her.



DesFIP -> RE: the role of punishment (6/25/2009 9:07:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
as far as perfection, that's an unattainable goal for any of us. my Master does not expect perfection from me either, but he does expect for me to always do my best, and give all i can.


I'm confused. You are not expected to be perfect but you are not allowed to do less than your best, your own personal perfection. Even Tiger Woods has a bad day occasionally.

Isn't expecting you to always be at your best the same as expecting perfection out of you? Is he always at his best; never tired, irritated, annoyed and not in perfect control? If so, how does he get punished for not doing what he demands of you?

As far as leadership and the two gears, sounds just like The Man. Warm and nurturing or as he's been called  the Hatchet Man, the one who decimates subcontractors who don't deliver what they promised. And obviously decimation of someone you love will lead to the loss of their love.



daddysprop247 -> RE: the role of punishment (6/26/2009 8:10:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP


I'm confused. You are not expected to be perfect but you are not allowed to do less than your best, your own personal perfection. Even Tiger Woods has a bad day occasionally.

Isn't expecting you to always be at your best the same as expecting perfection out of you? Is he always at his best; never tired, irritated, annoyed and not in perfect control? If so, how does he get punished for not doing what he demands of you?



now you've got me confused Des. what Master wouldn't want their slave or submissive to do their best? not everyone is going to be punished for not reaching that bar of course, but i would assume that any Master would hope that his girl would do her best, put in her best effort.

and "best" is not a static thing. for instance if i am sick, i am expected to give the very best he knows i can in that state...not the very best i could give if i'm 100% healthy. He is also perceptive enough to know when i am not putting my all into something, regardless of the circumstances.

and of course he is not always at his best. He is not perfect and certainly does not strive for perfection in himself. nor does he strive to be 100% cool, calm and in control at all times...he accepts his temperamental nature, he rides out the waves. it is my place to ride them right along with him. He is Master, i am slave, the same rules do not apply to each of us.



leadership527 -> RE: the role of punishment (6/26/2009 8:23:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
and of course he is not always at his best. He is not perfect and certainly does not strive for perfection in himself. nor does he strive to be 100% cool, calm and in control at all times...he accepts his temperamental nature, he rides out the waves. it is my place to ride them right along with him. He is Master, i am slave, the same rules do not apply to each of us.

And this, in the end, would correspond to my thinking on what it means to be a good life partner. I don't even need to use M/s thinking to understand this. Long before Carol was my slave or I was her Master, we both strove to support each other -- helping to smooth out the bumps and rough spots in our partner -- sometimes simply accepting them as a part of the package deal and riding out the waves.

In my way of thinking, even for a totally vanilla couple, the same rules never apply because the people are never the same. In the end, the only yardstick that I can think of which makes any sense is that things which are destructive to either partner or the relationship as a whole are Bad(tm). Things which, in some way or another, are supportive of both people and the relationship are Good(tm).

The only thing that the M/s dynamic adds into this for me is the fact that as the Master, it is my decision as to what we will actually do. But that doesn't change the objective reality of the result of that decision. So yes, as the Master, I get to make the call... but that call can still end up poorly. Using a pretend example, I could command carol to jump off a cliff. But the result would be that she plummets to her death -- my dominance does not extend to the force of gravity.

**Note: I am deliberately ignoring here the complication of existing in a larger society, but clearly (to me anyway) that society also exerts some rightful influence on what can be considered good or bad.



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