obedience,and to be fair?

obedience,and to be fair? (Full Version)

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monaslave -> obedience,and to be fair? (6/23/2009 4:27:48 AM)
How would you describe obedience,and, how you describe to be fair what do you think it contains,or not, and can you allow yourself as a sub or slave, to demand fairness? and how far does your obedience goes?

Focus50 -> RE: obedience,and to be fair? (6/23/2009 4:39:58 AM)
Obedience is what I look for in my girl. Fairness, along with conscience, principles, a sense of justice etc, are what the fella in the mirror puts the stare on me about.... If my sub/slave needed to "demand" fairness of/from me, we wouldn't even be together. Focus.

Drakontos -> RE: obedience,and to be fair? (6/23/2009 4:52:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: monaslave How would you describe obedience,and, how you describe to be fair what do you think it contains,or not, and can you allow yourself as a sub or slave, to demand fairness? and how far does your obedience goes? For this slave, obedience can be as simple as making breakfast the way that Master wishes; to as complicated as learning to drive because Master demands it. It simply means that this slave follow his wishes, his orders, etc; without question or delay. As a slave, to 'demand' anything of Master would be the same as telling him that zaphira no longer wanted to be in his collar. This slave, as long as she remains in his collar, has no right to demand anything. As for fairness; you would first have to expound on that before zaphira could answer. There are varying degree's of fairness and different ways of defining what is fair and what is not.

olena -> RE: obedience,and to be fair? (6/23/2009 4:53:57 AM)
Obedience to me is doing what is expected and ordered of you within the agreed dynamic. Fairness is consistency and integrity of how the dominant wields, maintains and uses the power exchange and their other. I think a slave can and needs fairness in their relationship to make it work. I think though if a slave judges every action in the relationship individually for some vague concept like fairness that is unrealistic and pretty much impossibly unfair to the dominant. A dominant should not have to sell or justify every single thing. Obedience simply shows ones devotion and commitment to your other and the relationship you agreed to have. If it is not zealot in your agreed upon dynamic then one is not showing devotion or commitment and one should take a step back and go slower if the relationship is new or re-examine or put serious thought by both in a well established relationship if the dynamic agreed to is working and both can be on the same page.

CatdeMedici -> RE: obedience,and to be fair? (6/23/2009 4:57:53 AM)
Obedience and Trust go hand in hand---he can't obey if he doesn't have complete trust--from trust comes obedience, from obedience comes acquiescence.

DesFIP -> RE: obedience,and to be fair? (6/23/2009 5:20:08 AM)
Fairness is what's necessary for the relationship to continue. If he is arbitrary, punishing me one day for something he praises me for the next, then I would lose trust in him. If what he says does not match what he does, same result. Obedience isn't our thing nearly as much as emotional transparency. If he feels like play and I'm not in good shape for it, he doesn't want me to simply lie there and take it. He's after the energy exchange so if I know I don't feel well enough for it to be a good day, I'm supposed to tell him. Someone more obedience driven is supposed to lie there and endure.

CaringandReal -> RE: obedience,and to be fair? (6/23/2009 5:59:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: monaslave How would you describe obedience,and, how you describe to be fair what do you think it contains,or not, and can you allow yourself as a sub or slave, to demand fairness? and how far does your obedience goes? Obedience and fairness are general concepts that have little meaning for me outside the context of a relationship. And each relationship, each situation is so different from another, that's when you move from one to another it's almost as if you have to reinvent new definitions for each of the terms. Obedience can be pinned down a little, I think. Fairness is a much more slippery fish! Maybe I'm just not good with abstract thinking, it's never one of my strong points, but if you read the messages posted here or other places about specific situations, you'll see the meanings of these two terms shift and change, depending upon the details of the situation. In the experiences I tend to seek out and personally feel the closest fit with, I define obedience as doing what I'm told or what is expected from me whether or not I think it's fair or think the response to it, short-term or long-term, will be fair. (This formula works for me but obviously isn't right for everyone.) This is very simple to describe, and can become almost instinctual or habitual to do, but at the same time it often inspires a tremendous amount of thought, particularly if the one you're obeying is inspiring in that particular way. How far does my obedience go? Wow, that's a personal question. And very hard to answer accurately, because of the way shifting contexts change how we actually behave. My best guess is not all the way, but close. For example, the thing I fear most because it hurts so bad is fire and burns. If someone ordered me to jump into a bonfire, I probably couldn't bring myself to obey. I'd be too scared of the pain. But if someone ordered to me lie down so he could tie me up prior to throwing me in into a bonfire, I just might be able to do that. (I'm not sure though.) Here's an example of a shifting context: if someone I loved or someone (like a child) I felt generically protective toward were thrown into the same bonfire that so terrifies me, I might not hesitate to jump in after them and try to drag them out as doing that would automatically take a higher priority in my mind than my personal fear and pain.

dommalemn -> RE: obedience,and to be fair? (6/23/2009 6:04:25 AM)
Obedience is fallowing through on what rules were set up. Fallowing the lead. Fairness on the other hand is a much harder thing. First you must know what is fair. Is it fair if the s type gets to sit there and watch a movie with the D type running his hand through the s type"s hair when the D type has to do all the work? Is it fair that the D type sits there wile the s type gets him a drink? Is it fair that in a lot of relationships that is done (D/s or not)? Something being fair is just a made up thing. Yes the s type likes to know that their input is of value.And that the relationship is in the interest of both. But how can it be made totally fair. Most people learn that most things in life are not fair at an early age. We take what we are given and make our path the best we can.When we are in a relationship we need to bring their needs into consideration. But will it all be fair? Not in this world. Just a few thought. If anyone has a way they make things fair it would be interesting to hear that. Dommalemn

CaringandReal -> RE: obedience,and to be fair? (6/23/2009 6:29:32 AM)
Oh! There was one more thing I wanted to say about this. When you see two words like obedience and fairness paired together in the same message, it's natural to assume there is a relationship between the two, such as the transaction: sub obeys then dom rewards with fairness. But when it comes to a submissive's obedience, the old idea of "being paid twice" starts to creep in. I like to be obedient because it is both deeply psychologically satisfying and also a sexual kick for me and I don't believe I'm alone among submissives in feeling this. So if I am getting "paid" with these good feelings for the act of my obedience, so why should I expect an additional, second payment from a dominant for doing something that is so deeply fulfilling and natural for me? It's not exactly like I'm suffering terribly or going against my nature or making any particularly odious sacrifice by obeying. I guess we all wish we could get paid for doing whatever we love the most, but is it realistic?

oceanwinds -> RE: obedience,and to be fair? (6/23/2009 6:56:52 AM)
I am not one to just jump into being submissive to another. We both have to take time in building trust. As a submissive I do hope that my brain is still very good and functioning, that I can see things not just from my heart but my mind. Obedience is not a problem for me, because for me to be a submissive to someone, trust has been built. I would already know the framework of his core and would be honor to obey him. Obedience is not easy, for there are things that are difficult for me, but I have seen those as growth challenges, and in honoring him I could not challenge his demands. oceanwinds.

KnightofMists -> RE: obedience,and to be fair? (6/23/2009 7:59:16 AM)
To be Fair or Fairness implies a comparison of two or more interests to obtain a balance that is considered fair for those involved. In my view the interests that are weighted against each other is ... each individual of the relationship and the relationship itself. As result to my making decisions where my slave's obey there is an impact on these interests. For me and this family the balance of fairness is achieved when the interests of the family are put forward on the whole than the agenda of a particular individual. This is not to say that a specific individual will not benefit by a decision over other others in the relationship. But primarly the family benefits from the decision and the positive or negative effect to the individuals are secondary to the positive benefits of the family. As the person with authority... It is my decision on what will be best for the family but that is not without input and consideration of those involved. Fairness is not something that is demanded but it is an expectation that exists with all members of the family. However, it is also understood that this fairness is subjective and that my subjective opinion on this fairness will be the final decision for right or wrong. It becomes very easy for someone to obey and abide by a decision when they believe that it is correct and fair. It becomes an entirely different matter when they disagree with the decision. Even though my slaves may disagree with the subjective opinion... they will obey because obedience holds a higher priority in our dynamic. In fact, disobedience is an end to our M/s dynamic for them to make that choice it would require a significant imbalance to fairness of our family. It is also important to note that regardless of me having the decision doesn't make the decision right. It is important in the spirit of fairness for the family that decisions that reveal themselves to be wrong are corrected. If I failed to adjust and correct wrong decisions it would have a significant negative impact upon this family and we would be nearly as happy as we all are. This commitment and active demonstration to correct wrong decisions and the slaves commitment and active obedience to decisions that they disagree with are critical in balancing the fairness within the dynamic and as such allowing the relationship to thrive. This is something that I believe myself and my two girls do very well in our relationship.

maia09 -> RE: obedience,and to be fair? (6/23/2009 8:43:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: monaslave How would you describe obedience,and, how you describe to be fair what do you think it contains,or not, and can you allow yourself as a sub or slave, to demand fairness? and how far does your obedience goes? Not sure i really understand what you're saying. But i'll give it a go. Obedience is something i believe MUST be in place for our dynamic to work. Without my obedience He has no ability to rule me unless He wants to be a tyrant and attempt to force me to do something against my will. He doesn't. Fair? i don't seek fair in terms of what the world views it as. What's fair to me is He dominates, i submit - that's what's fair to me.

leadership527 -> RE: obedience,and to be fair? (6/23/2009 9:21:06 AM)
yeah.. what focus said laughs.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: obedience,and to be fair? (6/23/2009 9:30:03 AM)
Obedience is following orders, as someone else mentioned it stems from trust in the decision the orders are based on. Fair is subjective, and pertains to merit being applied to the value from the one determining fairness. I determine what is, and fair does not play into it much. My decisions are based upon need and value, and being consistant with my ethics. My slave demands nothing, there is no negotiation. There is trust in the decisions I make, and her devotion because of them. Her continued training using IE, combined with a well balanced emotional and psychological state, makes her completely obedient. She may voice opinion about a command, but she does so as she is doing what she is told. I make the decision on whether to take her opinion into consideration or not. Life is not fair, it just is. quote: ORIGINAL: monaslave How would you describe obedience,and, how you describe to be fair what do you think it contains,or not, and can you allow yourself as a sub or slave, to demand fairness? and how far does your obedience goes?

Missokyst -> RE: obedience,and to be fair? (6/23/2009 10:16:33 AM)
Obedience is to follow orders. Or in my case, if my mate wishes something I make it happen, which in my eyes is more being a loving mate who wants to please and a lot less to do with obedience. Obedience to me is more like doing things because there is no choice. Pleasing is just doing things because in my head I need to make sure my mate is happy. No choice.. but in this case it is more in my head/heart and not in my logic. Fairness. Number one.. I would not choose someone unless I felt they were reasonable, fair, consistant, equitable in terms of how we interact, whether we both decided on how we live. I only turn myself over to someone when I have a sense of who they are as people apart from bdsm. This is not magic. Ds, bdsm, it's the same deal as nilla, there has to be compatibility in how we think. Beats me why people assign some over idealised aspects to it. Kyst

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: obedience,and to be fair? (6/23/2009 11:46:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: monaslave How would you describe obedience, Obedience is pretty simple. Once someone has agreed that xhe is subordinate to me, xhe will do what I require, in the manner that best suits me, unless xhe can present solid reasoning why doing such would be impossible or inappropriate, at which point, I will decide whether I wish hir to attempt the impossible, or succumb to the inappropriate, or what I prefer instead. quote: how you describe to be fair. what do you think it contains,or not, Being fair is not the same, to me, as being Just. Fair implies equivalence, where everything balances out in the end. It is an egalitarian state, where everyone gets a say, and where everyone's needs and desires are figured into the final outcome. I find the concept of 'fair' to be frought with untenable moral issues, for me, because it requires compromise... sometimes of things that are foundationally and ethically a part of my internal structure, and on which I will not compromise, including the issue of who it is that is making the decisions in our household. It may be completely arbitrary, but it is what it is, and I make no apologies for it. It used to bother me that I couldn't be more 'fair'... now I see demands to "be fair" as attempts to manipulate and control situations and events without taking responsibility for the outcome -- if it doesn't work out, one can always retort with "Well, so and so wasn't being FAIR". quote: and can you allow yourself as a sub or slave, to demand fairness? I tell my servants, up front, that life will not be -fair- in our house. Some will achieve while others will not, and it will be based on the individual's efforts, skills, ambition, and motivation. I will not hold one servant back just so another can feel like everything is 'fair' and all "even steven". Nor will I promote a servant if hir attitude and behavior lack, just because another servant got promoted. Sometimes, I am arbitrary and unwilling to negotiate on certain things. I expect that I will say -once- "No, it is not up for discussion." and the subject will be closed. If someone starts whining to me about how 'unfair' my decision is, I am quick to remind them that they -asked- to be in this relationship, and turned decision-making over to me. If they want to make their own decisions, according to what they see as fair, they're welcome to not let the door hit them on the fanny on the way out. On the other hand, justice is a concept that I embrace as unequivocally as is possible in a human being with flaws. I think that hard work and diligent effort, in a just world, are rewarded. I do my best to do so at every opportunity. On the other hand, I think that justice requires that inappropriate behavior be recompensed, and I will require such, without hesitation, as often as a slight is noticed... and including my own lapses in judgment. It is a matter of personal ethic to accept responsibility for ones actions, and this is -just-. Justice... that is a concept I will hold myself and my household to. Dame Calla

Mercnbeth -> RE: obedience,and to be fair? (6/23/2009 12:27:35 PM)
quote: How would you describe obedience... Dutifully complying with the commands, orders, or instructions of one in authority. quote: ...how you describe to be fair... somewhere one goes in the summertime to ride rides, eat cotton candy and pet goats. quote: ...can you allow yourself as a sub or slave, to demand fairness?... personallly, no. others however, might have success with it. quote: ...and how far does your obedience goes?... to the best of this slave's ability, she dutifully complies with His commands orders and instructions.

sweetsub1957 -> RE: obedience,and to be fair? (6/23/2009 12:59:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: monaslave How would you describe obedience, Doing what Sir asks/orders/wants/likes me to do. and, how you describe to be fair Weighing the situation and not being either overly solicitious or overly mean. i'm not sure i explained myself very well. what do you think it contains,or not, i know i need to trust Sir to unnerringly obey everything without fear that He wants me to do. When i trust Him, and i do totally, i can obey without reservation. and can you allow yourself as a sub or slave, to demand fairness? i don't make "demands." and how far does your obedience goes? All the way. i've never outright disobeyed Sir, but one time i kept teasingly calling Him a certain pet name and i got spanked hard for it. lol

brandi1379 -> RE: obedience,and to be fair? (6/23/2009 7:14:57 PM)
Obedience to means doing what im told with no if,and's or but's about it. Which is in all honesty sometimes hard for me being im still kinda wet behind the ears so to speak. But i do my best to do as im told when im told. I am often told that life isnt fair, and with this being my first D/s relationship i find myself questioning "fairness" in this whole thing, (never to him ofcourse tho) im used to things being 50/50.Sir might ask me to do something or punish me for something that was not done and i will think to myself "but thats not fair" but usually after thinking on it i realize that it was perfectly fair. I would NEVER demand anything of Sir, i might ask him in a most respectfull way but i know never to demand. I belive i am very obediant, like i said im still "wet behind the ears" so i still have alot to learn, but i think im doing a good job so far.

AlexandraLynch -> RE: obedience,and to be fair? (6/23/2009 7:52:26 PM)
Obedience is an act of faith in the wisdom of the person who gave the order. It is a statement of love in action. I think that the natural understanding and grace to simply obey comes with time and with the continued experience of needs met, desires granted, and love returned in the relationship. Fairness often has little to do with it. Life itself, as a whole is not fair. But the act of belief in and living the faith of the belief through life can transform it into a wonderful adventure.

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