Crime not being paid for !!

Crime not being paid for !! (Full Version)

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missturbation -> Crime not being paid for !! (6/6/2009 8:36:52 AM)
Browsing the news and such and found this set of articles. Criminals given community sentence orders commit 1500nserious crimes a year. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5457224/Criminals-given-community-sentence-orders-commit-1500-serious-crimes-a-year.html quote: The figures, from the Ministry of Justice, show the number of crimes - including murder, attempted murder, wounding, rape and sexual assault - carried out by criminals within a year of being convicted. Rather than serve prison time, offenders were given community orders such as cleaning up graffiti and collecting litter. In all, there were 1,044 severe crimes by adults and 460 by juveniles, making a total of 1,504 serious violent offences per year. One in 12 child rapists or attempted rapists escape prison. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/5400245/One-in-12-child-rapists-or-attempted-rapists-escape-prison.html quote: Almost ten per cent of adults who preyed on children under 13 were let off with a community order or suspended sentence. It comes two months after it emerged one paedophile in three guilty of any sex offence against a young child is handed a caution. Three in four people caught with guns avoid jail. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/5383565/Three-in-four-people-caught-with-guns-avoid-jail.html quote: Dominic Grieve, the shadow justice secretary, said: "Ministers spin a tough line on gun crime, but are doing less and less in practice. In 2003 one in two people convicted of gun possession were sent to prison. "The latest figures show that less than one in 3 now ends up in jail. This is a far cry from the zero tolerance approach promised by this government." Burglars addicted to drugs or drink to escape prison sentences. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/5313833/Burglars-addicted-to-drugs-or-drink-to-escape-prison-sentences.html quote: Dominic Grieve, the shadow justice secretary, said: "Domestic burglary invariably involves a violation of a person's home and sense of security, so people will be surprised by the suggestion that some domestic burglars should receive community sentences. "It is a shocking indictment of our criminal justice system that the sentencing guidelines council thinks drugs addicts who burgle to fund their habit should avoid jail What are those in charge of these kind of decisions thinking ffs?

Politesub53 -> RE: Crime not being paid for !! (6/6/2009 9:27:26 AM)
Gordon is too busy phoning Piers Morgan ect, to worry about crime. What was the Labour slogan again ? Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime. They have done sweet FA on either front.

missturbation -> RE: Crime not being paid for !! (6/6/2009 6:17:54 PM)
Yup, it fucking sucks.

Marc2b -> RE: Crime not being paid for !! (6/6/2009 7:00:28 PM)
Well, you're not the only country infected with this oh they're just misunderstood victims of society (circumstances, a poor economy, bad parenting, etc.) so let's not be too hard on them and give them another chance bullshit. I've long been a little disdainful of people who run around looking for the "root causes" of crime when the answer is obvious - the root cause of crime is criminals. If we want to reduce the crime rate the answer is also obvious - build more prisions, shove the criminals into them, and keep them there for the full duration of their sentences.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: Crime not being paid for !! (6/6/2009 11:49:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b Well, you're not the only country infected with this oh they're just misunderstood victims of society (circumstances, a poor economy, bad parenting, etc.) so let's not be too hard on them and give them another chance bullshit. I've long been a little disdainful of people who run around looking for the "root causes" of crime when the answer is obvious - the root cause of crime is criminals. If we want to reduce the crime rate the answer is also obvious - build more prisions, shove the criminals into them, and keep them there for the full duration of their sentences. Couldn't we just get rid of the criminals, instead of housing them?

slaveboyforyou -> RE: Crime not being paid for !! (6/7/2009 1:50:51 AM)
quote: Couldn't we just get rid of the criminals, instead of housing them? Yeah, that's what we should do. We could put them on trains, and send them to special camps where we gas or machine gun a whole bunch of them at once to save time. Oh wait a minute.....I think I saw a movie about that. Maybe we could ship them on trains some place really, really cold and just work them to death. Yeah, we could even send petty criminals to those places. Of course we wouldn't want to bother their families with it, so we wouldn't even tell them they had been arrested. I wonder what we could call them? Now that I think about it, those criminals' pesky families may cause problems for the above innovative ideas. So I reckon we arrest them too. Hey another idea! We need people for medical experiments; let's use these scumbag criminals! We could even use them for dangerous jobs working with nuclear and toxic waste. Man, I wonder why no one has ever thought of this?

Politesub53 -> RE: Crime not being paid for !! (6/7/2009 2:57:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b Well, you're not the only country infected with this oh they're just misunderstood victims of society (circumstances, a poor economy, bad parenting, etc.) so let's not be too hard on them and give them another chance bullshit. I've long been a little disdainful of people who run around looking for the "root causes" of crime when the answer is obvious - the root cause of crime is criminals. If we want to reduce the crime rate the answer is also obvious - build more prisions, shove the criminals into them, and keep them there for the full duration of their sentences. This is just ignorant thinking, not everyone who commits a crime is a criminal in the true sense of the word.

stella41b -> RE: Crime not being paid for !! (6/7/2009 5:21:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b Well, you're not the only country infected with this oh they're just misunderstood victims of society (circumstances, a poor economy, bad parenting, etc.) so let's not be too hard on them and give them another chance bullshit. I've long been a little disdainful of people who run around looking for the "root causes" of crime when the answer is obvious - the root cause of crime is criminals. If we want to reduce the crime rate the answer is also obvious - build more prisions, shove the criminals into them, and keep them there for the full duration of their sentences. This is just ignorant thinking, not everyone who commits a crime is a criminal in the true sense of the word. How very true PS53.. seeing that our MPs and even Government ministers decided to join in.

Irishknight -> RE: Crime not being paid for !! (6/7/2009 6:09:01 AM)
I have to disagree with you. Criminal is defined as "guilty of a crime." I will agree that not every criminal is a career criminal but that doesn't mean we should let them off with a slap on the wrist. If I kill someone without just cause, I should receive the same sentence as anyone else. If I steal a car, the same rules should apply as apply to anyone else. If I rape a small child, I should be locked away to prevent me from doing it again regardless of whether it was one or a hundred. There should be very few cases of "extenuating circumstances" and none on certain crimes. Those who let criminals out with a slap on the wrist only to have them repeat the same crime or an even worse one should be arrested as accomplices.

LadyEllen -> RE: Crime not being paid for !! (6/7/2009 7:41:50 AM)
Ideal would be to produce a socio-economic system where all truly have a chance of making it - and a realistic chance of making it - such that crime is neither a necessity nor a lifestyle option nor something to be indulged in casually. At such a point, the most draconian penalties could be introduced for crime, alongside a judicial system that actually worked. "Tough on the causes of crime" was an appeal to such an approach, as far as I read it anyway. However, as PS53 has indicated, it was nothing more than an appeal by a party intimately wrapped up with the very socio-economic system that generates crime as one of its symptoms - a system which relies on the inequality of opportunity amongst us to perpetuate the status quo as to who can make it and who cannot, and a system which holds that its OK to make it anyway you like as long as you dont get caught. From this comes incidentally the idea that those who have and those who make it, must be up to something - and therefore those who dont have and who want to make it may get up to whatever it takes too. Crime in the UK is attractive. After all, there is a small chance of being arrested, a small chance of being charged, a small chance of the case going to court and a small chance of conviction, alongside a small chance of receiving anything more than a minor penalty akin to sponsorship to a university of crime where one might learn techniques to make it pay better next time round and avoid trouble. And thats the other problem - that a single conviction is enough to terminate any chance for the criminal of ever making it outside of crime - repetition of offences is therefore inevitable. E

Marc2b -> RE: Crime not being paid for !! (6/7/2009 10:07:39 AM)
quote: Couldn't we just get rid of the criminals, instead of housing them? If you mean the death penalty I would disagree. I am against the death penalty not because I don't think there are lowlifes who don't deserve it but for the simple fact that I don't trust the government not to make mistakes - either through genuine error or malfesance - sometimes. When a case of injust incarceration is uncovered, at least you can let the guy go and give him back the rest of his life. The death penalty is irrevocable.

Politesub53 -> RE: Crime not being paid for !! (6/7/2009 10:07:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Irishknight I have to disagree with you. Criminal is defined as "guilty of a crime." I will agree that not every criminal is a career criminal but that doesn't mean we should let them off with a slap on the wrist. Well I knew someone would be pedantic over the word criminal, and I wasnt disapointed. The reason I made my statement is as follows, many people commit a crime through addiction. Initially I dont see these first time offenders as criminals. They need to have the addiction treated. Secondly, I never stated let criminals off with a slap on the wrist, but the post I was replying to mentioned throwing everyone into jail. That isnt the answer.

Marc2b -> RE: Crime not being paid for !! (6/7/2009 10:14:06 AM)
It's ignorant to think that thieves, rapists and murderers should be locked up? Yes there are innocent people who get wrongly arrested sometimes but that's why we have a justice system - to sort these things out. Yes there are innocent people who get wrongly convicted but the majority - even vast majority - are proven guilty. The relatively few wrongful convictinns does not negate the fact that there are some truly horrible, violent, people out there. I'm just adocating that we truly punish them rather that treat them like lost little lambs who just need a hug.

Marc2b -> RE: Crime not being paid for !! (6/7/2009 10:26:23 AM)
quote: Well I knew someone would be pedantic over the word criminal, and I wasnt disapointed. The reason I made my statement is as follows, many people commit a crime through addiction. Initially I dont see these first time offenders as criminals. They need to have the addiction treated. Secondly, I never stated let criminals off with a slap on the wrist, but the post I was replying to mentioned throwing everyone into jail. That isnt the answer. I did not advocate throwing everyone into jail. I advocat (and I repeat) putting crinimals in jail to serve out their full sentences. I am not talking about locking up a pot smoker for life (in fact I favor the legalization of marijuana - but that's another debate). I'm talking about the rapist who is sentenced to twenty yearts in prison actually serving twenty years in prison instead of being let out after twelve years for "good behavior" or five years because of prision over-crowding. As for the drug addict who is mugging people to pay for his next hit: well, he knowingly commited a crime when he started taking an illegal drug and he still knew it was a crime to mug people which he chose to do rather than seek treatment.

Politesub53 -> RE: Crime not being paid for !! (6/7/2009 10:28:54 AM)
Marc, a hypothetical question or two for you. If you had a drug addiction, and stole some food to survive, would you be happy to receive the treatment you suggest ? Do you, as a tax payer, not consider treating addictions as a better option in the long term ? Rather than the expensive option of prison and no end to the addiction on release ?

Politesub53 -> RE: Crime not being paid for !! (6/7/2009 10:33:16 AM)
Marc, in reply to this quote: I did not advocate throwing everyone into jail. Your first post stated you were disdainful of people who run around looking for root causes of crime. Surely by dismissing the cause you advocate jail ?

Marc2b -> RE: Crime not being paid for !! (6/7/2009 11:23:54 AM)
quote: Your first post stated you were disdainful of people who run around looking for root causes of crime. Surely by dismissing the cause you advocate jail ? I can see how you might think that but you are wrong. I am disdainful of people who sprout trite phrases like "crime is caused by poverty," and think that if we just reduced poverty then most crime will go away. But if poverty is a root cause of crime then what is the explanation for middle class or wealthy people who commit crimes? Most crime (particularly violent crime) is caused by people who simply lack the moral scruples to be decent people. Some might argue that an abusive childhood is the root cause behind somebody becoming a rapist but such individuals still know that it is wrong to rape yet choose to commit the crime anyway. My childhood was less than stellar (including a molestation when I was six) but I have never raped anybody nor will I. Whatever feelings of anger I have over that incident, I have chosen not to take them out on others for the simple fact that it is wrong to do so.

Marc2b -> RE: Crime not being paid for !! (6/7/2009 11:32:50 AM)
quote: If you had a drug addiction, and stole some food to survive, would you be happy to receive the treatment you suggest ? No. I wopuldn't be happy but I would expect to suffer the consequences of my actions. Keeping crinimals happy is not the purpose of the justice system. quote: Do you, as a tax payer, not consider treating addictions as a better option in the long term ? Rather than the expensive option of prison and no end to the addiction on release ? It depends. If the addict in question has commited no other crimes then I don't have a problem with treating their addiction. indeed, forced treatment - as punishment for their crime of taking the illegal drug in the first place - is a perfectly viable option in my opinion. If however the addict in question has been robbing people's homes to pay for his habbit, then he should pay the penalty for that. If we were consistent in punishing such crimes it might even give some people pause when contemplating that first hit of an illegal drug. The law has no teeth to it anymore. People know that with a competent lawyer and a good sob story they have a good chance of avoiding the consequences of their actions.

Irishknight -> RE: Crime not being paid for !! (6/7/2009 4:15:03 PM)
PS53, isn't it possible to punish the criminal for the crime they committed and treat the addiction. Remember, addiction or no, they made a choice to steal, rape, or kill. They made the choices that led them to that choice as well. They need to serve the time for that crime. If they are not to be held responsible for their own decisions then why should we have a system of laws to begin with? As for not considering first time offenders criminals, I guess you would be sympathetic to the guy who broke in and murdered a member of your family just because he had never committed a crime before? If you say you wouldn't consider him a criminal, then I'm tossing out the bullshit flag. One time or a thousand, wrong is wrong. Any way you twist it, wrong is wrong.

Politesub53 -> RE: Crime not being paid for !! (6/7/2009 4:20:43 PM)
Irishknight, my comment about first time offenders was a continuation of the comments about addiction. How you take that to mean everybody I am not sure. Say someone is attacked and in defending themselves commits an offence. For example injure the perp. There jury decide that that person is guilty of assault, and not self defense. Does that still make them a criminal ? Sometimes the courts get it wrong, often through police witholding evidence that could free someone. My point is it isnt all cut and dried.

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