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RE: Handling criticism... - 6/3/2009 9:26:18 PM   
lighthearted


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeptha

Business philosophy had adopted the mantra "assume best intentions" a few years back. I'm not sure if that resonates with me completely, but I did hear something that is a "sort of" variant; that people do what they think is best.



in the past, I would immediately think the worst of myself when faced with criticism.  once I began giving people the benefit of the doubt, that their intentions were for the best (no matter how misguided) it became easier to 1.  listen to what they had to say; 2. be able to process that without flying off the handle.

oh, and it's diffuse

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RE: Handling criticism... - 6/3/2009 9:37:21 PM   
Jeptha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Delphinus

...Since I've made the conscious decision to welcome criticism as an internal opportunity for growth (and it has been a few years now), I find I am much more at peace...

It's interesting that you put it that way, because it sounds like a pivotal moment, the "conscious decision to welcome criticism"... Was it some sort of sudden change or epiphany, or was it a slow, gradual, getting-used-to the idea that criticism wasn't necessarily all that bad?

When put this way, I wonder how much the idea of being a perfectionist (and consequently being unable to accept failure gracefully, or accept anything less than perfection, etc.) could figure into it.


Edit to add: Also, does this sort of acceptance effectually circumvent the need for that sort of "psychoanalytic insight" into what might be emotionally charged events from one's past (at least as far as handling criticism is concerned)?

< Message edited by Jeptha -- 6/3/2009 9:57:22 PM >


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...YOU KNOW HOW I LIKE MY PORK CHOPS!
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"....(somewhere) therein lies the truthiness..."
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RE: Handling criticism... - 6/3/2009 10:00:59 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeptha

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

I discovered years ago that I was always right.

Since then, it became much clearer to me that those people who disagreed with me, were simply morons.

An excellent resolution (that in bold) that I shall adopt forthwith!


It's a gift.

(Even I don't know how I do it sometimes).

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RE: Handling criticism... - 6/4/2009 5:23:00 AM   
DesFIP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeptha


I mean, you still have to deal creatively with the situation in the here-and-now, right?

Or, does the awareness that "I'm reacting this way because of some event in my past" simply defuse (diffuse?) the situation so that you're able to act impeccably rationally?



It depends. Sometimes you only need to say, "this isn't the bully in 5th grade saying things to get me to cry" and sometimes you need to do more. And sometimes the more is saying to the critic, "I'm having a great deal of difficulty with the way you said that. It sounded deliberately hurtful. Did you mean it to be that way? If not, how did you mean it?"

Beyond that, you could simply say that you will think about what they said and get back to them. Mostly your reactions will calm down after you sleep on it and you will be able to address the criticism more rationally.

But sometimes the appropriate thing is to address the emotions and not the rationale.

Oh and either diffuse - thin out, or defuse - disarm would work here depending on your meaning.

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RE: Handling criticism... - 6/4/2009 6:09:36 AM   
Irishknight


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I usually stop people mid critique and ask, "Did I request your opinion?"  Only those I care about have the right to criticize what I do and to expect me to listen.  Anyone else I come across in my daily going on has niether the privilege nor the right.

Of course, on here, you guys get to finish typing before I read the criticism so I don't get to rudely interrupt.  It truly is sad.  I am very good at it.

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RE: Handling criticism... - 6/4/2009 8:10:22 AM   
LaTigresse


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For us.....

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RE: Handling criticism... - 6/4/2009 9:36:28 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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It used to be a -serious- problem for me. I would argue, debate, rant, rage, and then slip into passive-aggressive idiocy.

My "cure" was multi-dimensional. First, my philosophical path and desire to do pastoral-care counseling required that I spend some time in intense training, which meant spending an extended period in a monastary (part of that time in silence). Then, I decided to do the work to obtain my 'crop' in HBW, which was -another- period of not being able to talk back and having to really reflect on why people kept repeating the same comments about my personality/demeanor/etc. You'd think, with as often as I heard some of the comments, that I would have figured out that I was pretty doggone annoying, but apparently, it is not only -love- that is blind (and deaf, mute, and paralyzed). On top of that, I had decided to send some of my work out for publication, and -happened- to have the good fortune to listen to an editor at a writer's convention talking about the HORRIFIC authors she had to deal with, who couldn't take criticism and who argued with her and who refused to do the necessary revisions to sell their books--and I decided that I didn't want to be -that- person... so before I submitted my first piece, I sat myself down and looked at ALL the things people had been saying about me that were less than complementary for -years-, and double-checked against my known behaviors at the time, and realized that I was a bloody -schmutz-! I was arrogant, rude, insensitive, vulgar, nosey, belligerent, and if I -ever- wanted anyone to be able to take advice from me, I figured that I'd better sort out how to get myself squared away. It was seriously -painful-, and there was a -lot- to fix... now, I try to stay on top of things. I try to listen to people when they start making noises that are pretty uncomplementary, to see whether I'm behaving in a way that requires adjustment. I've also figured out that I'm not a social person -- it's funny... back when I was a jackass, I considered myself a -very- social person. Now that people actually -like- being around me, I've figured out that I just really don't like being a social butterfly all that much, and I'm much more of an introvert than I thought I was.

Dame Calla




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RE: Handling criticism... - 6/4/2009 10:13:10 AM   
Jeptha


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From: Portland, Oregon
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeptha

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

I discovered years ago that I was always right.

Since then, it became much clearer to me that those people who disagreed with me, were simply morons.

An excellent resolution (that in bold) that I shall adopt forthwith!


It's a gift.

(Even I don't know how I do it sometimes).


Can the zen not be taught?

_____________________________

...YOU KNOW HOW I LIKE MY PORK CHOPS!
- - - - - - -
"....(somewhere) therein lies the truthiness..."
~*~*~*~*
http://www.myspace.com/crocusofiron

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Handling criticism... - 6/4/2009 10:26:27 AM   
Jeptha


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From: Portland, Oregon
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

...My "cure" was multi-dimensional....

My own approach has been a bit of a pastiche, though nothing quite as rigorous or thorough as some of the things you describe, Calla.

I've picked up some ideas from a lot of different traditions. Part of my wanting to start this thread is to think about it more and see if I can't establish a more coherent understanding of all the bits and pieces.


_____________________________

...YOU KNOW HOW I LIKE MY PORK CHOPS!
- - - - - - -
"....(somewhere) therein lies the truthiness..."
~*~*~*~*
http://www.myspace.com/crocusofiron

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Handling criticism... - 6/4/2009 9:40:33 PM   
DemonKia


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FR, after read thru

lol . . . Great thread, Jeptha, what an excellent discussion to start . . . . . . Good job, 50 points, & a silver star for you, lol . . . . . .

In addition to the other excellent contributions I'll add some of my particulars . ... . & for me 'criticism' unpacks into a lot of related issues . .. . . . . & wow did this turn into one hell of a long-ass post . . . . . . I've separated the distinct points by colors . . . . ..

I think of myself as being 'very sensitive', & mostly that's something I cultivate while knowing it comes with a price tag. A chunk of what that costs me is that I have a hard time with criticism. On the other hand I can testify that it is possible to get better about these things . . . . . . .

It's only in the last decade or so that I've started figuring out the childhood connections for much of my stuff. In the case of criticism, the most pertinent thing is that my mother was enormously judgemental & critical, & her mother too. & those were the women who raised me, so I've had to deal with being hypercritical & being too quick to perceive others as hypercritical . . . . . I also tend to think that I attract the critical to my life . . . . . . My parents & extended family also suffer from the 'disease' of perfectionism, & I do think there's a connection between ideas of 'attainable perfection' & how one perceives & copes with criticism . . . . . .

But I balance the stuff in the previous paragraph with noticing that human culture at large has both a great deal of hypercriticism & perfectionism going on with it . . . ..


I'm gonna really stick my neck out & say that I think a chunk of the 'problem of critique' is the innate human propensity to fall into either/or thinking, especially those good/bad channels of association. There are thousands of words & terms that carry all kinds of 'hot meaning', capable of conveying ideas about goodness/badness in addition to those words' more utilitarian uses. ('Criticism' itself being one of those 'hot words'.) Skepticism, peer review, & critique are all useful tools, tho' they can be as painful as a scalpel without anesthesia . . ... .

For me, a very important part about being able to 'listen accurately' (to criticism, or anything else) is learning / remembering to turn off the 'judgemental' portion of thinking & to hear the descriptives . . .. . . My feeling is that a really significant part of 'problem communication' is getting stuck in the judgemental space on the giving & / or receiving end . . . . . .

From that stance my general policy, increasingly, is to be very stingy about attaching good/bad, right/wrong labels to descriptive terminology (mostly an inside the head function), where possible, & where not-so-possible to 'notice' the process going on, in myself & others, of attaching those meanings . . . . . Keeping this in mind, for instance, dear reader, try not to attach a 'bad' or 'wrong' label to the notion of 'self-centeredness' in the following paragraph:


In my idealistic youth I had all kinds of unexamined notions, one of which was that others were very interested in me & my goings on . . .. . Somewhere between my mid-20s & my mid-30s I realized & 'got' that most all of us humans are so intensely self-centered that any given individual, on average, barely notices anyone else in their whole-hearted & enthusiastic focus on their own stuff . . . . . . (Please note, lol, that my very belief that everyone else was watching, noticing, & remembering me was in itself a product of my own self-centered nature . . . . . ) This really helped me not take stuff as personally, figuring out that most people are too self-involved to actually be paying that much attention to anyone else . . . . & from that came the realization that most of the time when people are ostensibly talking about others they're talking about themselves as much or more . . . . . . . . This framework was a very helpful epiphany to get . . . . ..

I've since then had the experience of being criticized by someone about something that left me wondering 'WTF?', but over time I could see that their criticism had as much or more to do with that person's issues than with mine . . . . . .


I've always tended towards being strongly inner-directed, despite how some of the above might sound like being outwardly-directed . . . . lol . . . . It's more the case that my rather relentless pursuit of my own goals, my own way, has tended to ruffle the feathers of others. Thus, above & beyond the hyper-critical parent figures, I've quite a bit of experience with both being criticized & of feeling criticized, & of being concerned about how I'm perceived by others. & being so inner-directed has really helped me to learn to shed undue criticism like water off a duck's back, because ultimately it's up to me to figure out what my issues are, & it's me that ultimately knows who & what I am . .. .. . & there's that even people who know me quite intimately in real life only know so much about me, much less some rather more distant acquaintances' perceptions of who I am . . .. .

A certain amount of less-succesful criticism aimed my way I perceive as being about the criticizers attempt to fit me whole into a label / box, mostly for their own comfort & simplicity of thought. There are darn few boxes or labels into which I fit neatly & tidily. & I think that's probably pretty common, that looseness of fit of most labels . . . . . .

'Power & control issues'. A certain amount of what goes on with criticism, in my mind, has to do with attempts to control & / or to feel powerful & like an effective agent of change, on the part of the criticizer . . . .. . Again, not in a good or a bad sense, merely in a 'detached observational' sense . . . .. .

There's this process that I've termed 'projective displacement' which has a large interplay with the concept & practice of criticism. Projective displacement is the mental process (generally unconscious) of transferring 'bad' feelings out into the world. Also referred to as 'toilet object behavior', as in, dumping one's emotional shit onto deserving or undeserving targets. It's one thing to vent anger, for instance, at that which has provoked the anger, but it's projective displacement when the anger is aimed at anything or anyone but the provoking agent. & not that projective displacement is good or bad, it just is. In my experience it most comes into play with repressed & suppressed 'bad' feelings . .. . .

Feelings happen, they are the chemical squirts reacting to stimuli coming in or being replayed, imagined, & etc . . . . . 'Normal' humans should be having the full range of biochemical reactions to stimuli that are possible, on a pretty regular basis. But if there is belief that a particular emotion is 'bad' & attempts are made to suppress, repress, deny, ignore, or what have you the expression of that emotion as it occurs, it has to go somewhere. Emotions are actual physical entities (biochemicals, neurotransmitters, neurons, & so on & so forth) engaging in actual physical events, however invisible all that might be, or be desired to be . . . . . . .

& projective displacement is my little term for when that repressed stuff comes out, especially when it's inappropriately vented. Disguised as rationality quite a bit of the time, hidden under obfuscating layers of words, safely distancing the feeling from the feeler in as plausibly deniable a way as possible . . . . . . .


Ummm, wow, yet another long-ass post, lol. Ah, poor dear reader . .. . . A reward. A powerful tool for being perceived (by self & others) as less critical & more helpful is to stay in a positive linguistic space, to phrase things only in positive terms, to eliminate the negations. Actually I've found it to be just an all-around powerful tool for changing my headspace, my relationship with the world around me, & etc . . .. . . . But I started practicing at it specifically to reduce my criticalness . . .. . .

Another powerful tool is to work to eliminate the use of imperative command structures & absolute terminology from ones language. 'You should', 'you ought', 'you need to', 'you must' & so on, of the former, & 'always', 'every', & similar, of the latter, are like casual gasoline tossed around conversations, turning 'innocent communication' into volatile explodium . . . . . .


A significant tool I have for dealing with all kinds of criticism is a sense of humor. I tend to be over-serious, so developing my sense of humor has been 'job 1' here for a while now, & especially humor as a way of turning life's lemons into aid, lol . . . . . . That 'laugh rather than cry' thing . ... . . Wherever possible . . . . So, to digest painful 'constructive criticism' I turn to self-deprecation & being willing & able to laugh at myself, & to process 'destructive criticism' I turn to satire, parody, sarcasm, & that sorta thing . . . . . .

Ah, & finally. I do a lot of both constructive & destructive self-critique. On purpose, accidentally, etc . .. . . I like it anymore; it's tough to ruffle my feathers over something I've already observed & am working on in myself . . . . . . I kinda view it as a form of innoculation . . . .. . .

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RE: Handling criticism... - 6/5/2009 12:19:22 PM   
Jeptha


Posts: 780
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Portland, Oregon
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

I usually stop people mid critique and ask, "Did I request your opinion?" Only those I care about have the right to criticize what I do and to expect me to listen. Anyone else I come across in my daily going on has niether the privilege nor the right...

But, how are you going to get some objective opinions that way?

Of course Mom is going to hang my finger paintings on the fridge; but if I want to be a fine artist (or whatever), I'm going to have to get some more objective feedback eventually. Maybe.

I'm reminded of the Oneida Community, and 19th century New York state commune that practiced group marriage (!) and something called "Mutual Criticism", described thus;


"The system is one of plain truth-telling, and was termed "mutual" because it was expected that all, or nearly all, would alternate as critic and subject. Sometimes persons were criticized by a standing committee selected for the purpose by the Community, sometimes by committees of their own selection, sometimes by the whole Community. The critics were expected in all cases to speak the truth without fear or favour, that the subject might see himself, whatever his faults or virtues, as others saw him."

I read about them originally in a book called "Where Angels Dared to Tread", by Victor Calverton.


_____________________________

...YOU KNOW HOW I LIKE MY PORK CHOPS!
- - - - - - -
"....(somewhere) therein lies the truthiness..."
~*~*~*~*
http://www.myspace.com/crocusofiron

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Handling criticism... - 6/5/2009 12:28:10 PM   
Jeptha


Posts: 780
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From: Portland, Oregon
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Kia, some of the things you metioned do remind me of what I consider to be one application of the "baffle em with bullshit" phenomenon.

Usually that phrase is used to convey that someone is using overly complex or wordy language instead of getting to the point.

Like the fine print on a contract.

But I think it can also apply to when someone seeks to elicit a purely emotional response in order to avoid having a rational discussion.


_____________________________

...YOU KNOW HOW I LIKE MY PORK CHOPS!
- - - - - - -
"....(somewhere) therein lies the truthiness..."
~*~*~*~*
http://www.myspace.com/crocusofiron

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RE: Handling criticism... - 6/5/2009 5:27:07 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeptha

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeptha

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

I discovered years ago that I was always right.

Since then, it became much clearer to me that those people who disagreed with me, were simply morons.

An excellent resolution (that in bold) that I shall adopt forthwith!


It's a gift.

(Even I don't know how I do it sometimes).


Can the zen not be taught?


I no longer carry that opulent impression of myself...I've grown over the last 117 hours....

I think that women rock, titties are just fabulous, short skirts, high heels.....

Mmmmmmm......wimmens....fabulous....sugary....delish....summer....
low....high....every word that ever described wimmens....(okay....I'm being entirely weird now....I just like wimmens....).

Okay....I better sign off now.....

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RE: Handling criticism... - 6/6/2009 6:37:18 AM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeptha

But, how are you going to get some objective opinions that way?

Of course Mom is going to hang my finger paintings on the fridge; but if I want to be a fine artist (or whatever), I'm going to have to get some more objective feedback eventually. Maybe.

I'm reminded of the Oneida Community, and 19th century New York state commune that practiced group marriage (!) and something called "Mutual Criticism", described thus;


"The system is one of plain truth-telling, and was termed "mutual" because it was expected that all, or nearly all, would alternate as critic and subject. Sometimes persons were criticized by a standing committee selected for the purpose by the Community, sometimes by committees of their own selection, sometimes by the whole Community. The critics were expected in all cases to speak the truth without fear or favour, that the subject might see himself, whatever his faults or virtues, as others saw him."

I read about them originally in a book called "Where Angels Dared to Tread", by Victor Calverton.



I'll address your concerns in order.  I don't want nor accept unsolicited criticism from everyone.  No matter what I do, there will be an asshat who wants to tell me how badly I suck and how wrong I am doing things.  Everyone has their version of "objective criticism" but most of it is just some clown's opinion.  There are those whose opinions I respect who rarely agree with me.  Read back on some of the discussions I've had with Owner59 and Kittinsol.  We rarely agree but they tend to make their points using intelligence and have earned my respect.

As to your second point, you've obviously never met my mom.  I am known for having the subtlety of a chainsaw and being as blunt as a sledge hammer.  I come by it honestly.  My mother doesn't candy coat anything for anyone and tends to hurt the feelings of those who mistake her for a sweet little grannie who bakes cookies for the grandkids and dreams of the days of Ozzie and Harriet.  In my family there is a rule.  If you don't want to know, don't ask.  If you ask, don't cry when you find out that the truth is almost always painful.

Unsolicited criticism is actually a way for someone else to bitch at you under the guise of "trying to help you."  Criticism should come from those in positions of authority, those who are deserving of respect or those that are asked for it.  Anyone else is probably trying to sell you some self help book or dvd.

_____________________________

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Soldiers died for your right to be ungrateful.

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RE: Handling criticism... - 6/6/2009 11:19:37 PM   
MDSade


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Criticism? I consider it's merit, then either accept it or object to it. It's easy.


< Message edited by MDSade -- 6/6/2009 11:21:31 PM >

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RE: Handling criticism... - 6/7/2009 9:51:54 AM   
Jeptha


Posts: 780
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Portland, Oregon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MDSade

Criticism? I consider it's merit, then either accept it or object to it. It's easy.

Sounds easy when you put it like that.

But why doesn't everybody just do it like that then?


_____________________________

...YOU KNOW HOW I LIKE MY PORK CHOPS!
- - - - - - -
"....(somewhere) therein lies the truthiness..."
~*~*~*~*
http://www.myspace.com/crocusofiron

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Profile   Post #: 36
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