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Reflections - 5/27/2009 9:25:32 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I didn't want to hijack that other thread but while I was napping abit after the last post on being seen as a reflection I wondered why I have such strong feelings about that topic.  As usual for me it goes back into my youth.  I am the youngest of 4 and we are all 4 yrs apart in age from the next one.  My parents had a varying degree of issues with their kids as most do, but as the last and the youngest I was expected to show how they had improved.   My mother in particular had a need to be seen as a good mom, one who had only to look over to be obeyed.  While other kids played in the yard yelling and screaming I sat on the porch, drawing and learning to read.  I could read in kindergarden and I won a scholarship in art at a young age.  I had a LOT of time to develop my skills so I in no way claim it is genius.  For me learning what I did was survival, I was living on the porch while others got to be kids.
I didn't really escape until my mom went to work.  I rode my first bike (and crashed never to ride again) as an early teen.  I started hitchhiking around age 14.  I felt mud for the first time when I switched from canvas art to sculpture at age 15.  And I was married at age 16.

It was not until then that I saw how I had been devalued as the "good example".  It was the same me but I was no longer the, perfect, quiet, well behaved, obedient, studious, talented example of how a person might be when guided by the right hands.  I had become gossip fodder just like the rest of the world. 

I have spent my life running from people who need to to feed their ego based on other people's opinion.
Now I am sitting here wondering why of all things I tend to be submissive within a relationship.  I am still the same.  I don't put much value on anyones opinion that is not important to me.  And I am selective about those who are important to me.  I have no wish to be a reflection, nor would I want to put that anchor around anyone elses neck.  A man might be rough or polished but I hope always to see who he is on his own merits and not because someone else has judged him good or bad. I don't want to see him through his reflection, I want to stand face to face and look into the depths of his eyes and see how he is.  If he is important it is worth my time. 

I am a freak and a renegade.  I wonder though am I also a dinosaur?  So many people are into the idea of protocal, sirs and maams, slashy speak, the horror of horrors; topping from the bottom, and now being seen as a reflection of the other half.  Part of me is starting to think maybe it would be better if I was dominant, though my heart is not in it.  Many subs I know have gone that route and are very happy switching roles.  Is there a trick to it?  How can I change years of patterns to move into the modern world?
*semi rant over*
Kyst
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Reflections - 5/27/2009 9:32:49 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I don't see being a reflection as necessarily a bad thing at all.

We choose who we want to share our life. The criteria we use to choose is reflected in both the people we've chosen, and then in ourselves.

Example: I will not have a drug or alchohol abuser or addict in my daily life. That choice, and the people I choose to be in my life reflect something about me. For a few people that might be a negative, for me it is a positive.

If I meet someone new, and they spend a great deal of time with someone I know abuses drugs or alchohol, there is a good chance the new person abuses drugs or alchohol. At the very least has a tollerance for such that I will not agree with. I will not want to be around them.

Similarly with any activity or trait I have strong feelings about.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Reflections - 5/27/2009 9:39:28 AM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		Hi, Kyst----
A cool sharing, thank you.  :> 
I'm not sure I see being a being unto yourself and being a reflection of one's other as mutually exclusive things.  I believe that partners can reflect one another without wholly sacrificing their identity. 
Certainly, I some ways, I can see your having been devalued as the good example but again, I think there is a distinction: being that show-piece for your parents an objectified way is different, I think, than being acknowledged as an independent being (Even if your behvior is a reflection). 
So, I suppose I would say distinction within reflection. 
  Davan

_____________________________

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-Robert A Heinlein

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-Me

Waiting is

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RE: Reflections - 5/27/2009 9:45:46 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		Hmm, I haven't so much thought about being a reflection, though I certainly am happy that most of the guys I've dated have been willing to introduce me to their parents/relatives, friends, co-workers, etc. at an appropriate point in our relationship. It seems like a lot of people here want a kinky girl to be their "dirty little secret," while I'm focused on finding a kinky boyfriend.

I do tend to be a bit of a chameleon, since D/s and kink are very much an interaction with the other person - they draw out different reactions/responses from me than another person would. Even if something isn't intrinsically appealing, their arousal from it can easily draw me in as well. So, I don't tend to have a set list of kinks I need, or a D/s dynamic I need, but rather rule out various things that are obviously incompatible, then develop a relationship with the individual person.

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RE: Reflections - 5/27/2009 9:51:12 AM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		Would I be correct to assume that if the man was important to you his opinion of you would matter?  Would it also be a correct assertion that you would not want in any way to detract from him that which drew you in the first place?  This is the reflection that we are talking about.  I don't give a flying fig what some stranger thinks of me, but when it is someone I have chosen to place value upon, then it matters deeply.  It is not my sole purpose in life to make other people look good, but I do care how it affects those close to me and I should hope to be an asset rather than a liability.

I was much like you, in that I kept my head down and did my best and more, if that is really possible.  It really would never be enough.  Due to those "perfect" beginnings, anything I became in my adult life was going to be a disappointment after all the preceding anticipation.  I am probably the lowest considered person in my family, yet have some of the highest ideals, motivations, and personal expectations of any.  I am the screw up, the poor little thing, and the lost cause.  I, too, have more or less given up on taking on others' expectations and live to what I believe to be a much higher code.  I could care less what they think of me, it, or the outcome.

Still, I want to please and be pleasing.  I want this only when I find someone who I deem worthy of pleasing and impressing.  They are few and far between, believe me.  When I do, however, I want the best for them and for myself.  I want to be a proud addition to their lives, something that I am not to my family who is more or less ashamed of me.  I don't want to have to be someone else in order to do this, but be right for the person as I am.  I will be the first to tell you that I have areas that could use a great deal of improvement and I should hope someone would care for me enough to not leave me as is.  The important part is that they can appreciate and accept me in my raw state and can go from there to bring out more that is just beneath the surface.

I happen to be switch, but it really has nothing to do with this particular issue.  I am switch because I am drawn to nurture both in a service and leadership capacity.  It seems it will be a rare thing to find someone with whom I can function in both roles at the same time.  I don't need or necessarily want it to be so either.  I really don't even see how switching would relate to this.  I am my own reflection and, in the end, I have to be able to face myself each day.  If my relationships bring me to a place that I have to be ashamed of myself, regardless of dynamic, it is time to cut ties.  I have to live with me the rest of my life.  I don't necessarily have to live with the rest of the world and their expectations and opinions.

lovingpet    

(in reply to Missokyst)
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RE: Reflections - 5/27/2009 9:53:01 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I am not sure that I see this as them being a reflection upon you at all.  You choose not be be associated with them because they are not your type.  I understand and can relate to that.  There are many people who are only on the outer skirmishes of my life, very few are in it and those that are are much like myself.  I know a lot of people though, and those people know a lot of people, some who abuse drugs and alcohol and some who do not.  I tend to see the person I am with and not his friends.  I am deliberately nomadic I do not seek out others who are the same way, though I have often found them.  Most people I know have a variety of buddies.  LOL I am a bit of a freak in that I envy that ability to befriend anyone.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I don't see being a reflection as necessarily a bad thing at all.

We choose who we want to share our life. The criteria we use to choose is reflected in both the people we've chosen, and then in ourselves.

Example: I will not have a drug or alchohol abuser or addict in my daily life. That choice, and the people I choose to be in my life reflect something about me. For a few people that might be a negative, for me it is a positive.

If I meet someone new, and they spend a great deal of time with someone I know abuses drugs or alchohol, there is a good chance the new person abuses drugs or alchohol. At the very least has a tollerance for such that I will not agree with. I will not want to be around them.

Similarly with any activity or trait I have strong feelings about.


(in reply to LaTigresse)
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RE: Reflections - 5/27/2009 10:05:45 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I would expect that any man who has me in his life has chosen me for a reason.  Compatibility, humor, intelligence, skill.. and a fair amount of sexual experimentation.  I am me.  I am not someone who was created by my dominant to be a reflection upon his greatness.  The assumption for me I think is that he would know who he wanted without having the outside pats on the back for having chosen well.  And I have hated being left for not being white, blond, young, virginal, ect.. which has come up now and again when dating men who require I meet certain standards to get to the next place. 
I do want my mates friends to like me, I am as human as the next.  But my mate did not raise me, or make me who I am.  As a reflection I am only the rims on his car (his choice), not the reflection of who he is.
Kyst

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RE: Reflections - 5/27/2009 10:10:22 AM   
oceanwinds


Posts: 530
Status: offline 		Hello Missokyst
I am still reflecting on your comment on the thread i posted. When I first saw the movie My Fair Lady, i always wanted to meet a Mr. Higgins. I wanted someone to take this ugly duckling and make her into a swan. Time i met late hubby, i created a lot of ugliness within me from the choices I made. With that being said though, he wasnt the type to be with someone who had nothing to offer. He recognized what was in me, and we began to work from their. In those 29 years, i learned a lot, not just from him, but from my ownself. i know that i am a strong will and independent person but i chained myself to past events. It has taken years to unchain myself, and now being alone for almost 4 years, i have taken leaps and bounds. Yes, Sir helps at times, but the majority of my inner growth came through my decision to stand on my two feet and let me be me.

With that being said, i would want to be a positive reflection for Sir as well as others who know me. I cannot be with someone who didnt have a good reflection either for me to compliment. So yes both would intertwine together and be two bright lights shining alone and /or one, at any given time.

I know myself that those who i am close too have to have a passion for life, and want to share that without stripping someone's confidence. I am not tolerant of that behavior. My tolerance of my things is low so i walk a hermit path. I enjoy it as well.  I never been seen as the 'good girl' and am the black sheep of my family. I feel because i dare to not be confined by another's definition. With that being said, i too have struggle with why i am a submissive, but i realize i can submit to one who will not define me but will help me mode myself.

Perhaps my thread really was an expression of how we present ourselves and how it is viewed. I present myself not so Sir will be happy, though it does please me that he is. There is something more to it then just Sir or late hubby. I am not owned, dont believe in it. Even married i was not owned, but still i carried on respectfully to the person i was with. I would not want to be with someone who i could not respect, and those closest to me frown on bratty name calling behavior. We both felt that way and respected not just us, but those around. Even if we did not agree with them, we would not lower our standards. So is a reflection more of a standard of living? I don't know.


_____________________________

I know where I came from and where I am today. I am forever grateful to all that touched my life. Thank you all and especially you, Goddess.

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RE: Reflections - 5/27/2009 10:22:59 AM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		The fact that he chose YOU is a reflection of something about him. The fact that you chose HIM is also a reflection of something about you.  I don't see it as having much to do with accolades as just tacitly being witness to certain qualities and traits that are common, desired, valued, not accepted, etc.  It is not a judgement upon anyone, but it gives some definition of what the individuals and the couple are about.  What that definition will mean to different people is not my concern. 

If I see a couple that jetsets all around the world, I will tend to think both enjoy travelling.  If one is just going along because being home alone is an abhorrent idea, then that definition is invalid, but it is easy to see how such a conclusion could be drawn.  I doubt the couple really cares if I think they are adventurous or frivolous because they travel so much.  They may care if it is a close friend or relative, and especially if one in the pairing become uncomfortable with the amount they are travelling for whatever reason.

I don't know if that analogy helps, but this is how I see it.  I don't want to leave room for incorrect definitions.  I don't care about the opinion it draws us necessarily, but I do not want to be confused for something we, or I, just are not.  It starts at the couple level.  If I am assenting to things that are not me, then my partner begins to define me falsely, it is my own fault.  It can lead to a couple being assessed as a good or inappropriate match as friends for other individuals and couples.  It can also happen when the couple begins not being honest with new people and those people begin to falsely define the couple and it is the couple's fault as they were not forthright about things with the new people they were associating with.  It is a genuineness and transparency that allows your partner to know you and then for others to know you both as individuals and as a couple.

lovingpet

(in reply to Missokyst)
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RE: Reflections - 5/27/2009 11:22:46 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		There's a difference between trying to be a *certain* reflection and simply being yourself.

It doesn't matter what *I* think, other people are going to judge HIM by me and ME by him and the fact that we like each other, anyway.  It just *says* something about the pair of us.

I'm not TRYING to *reflect something* about him....but I still do, simply because I'm something he chose.

agirl






(in reply to Missokyst)
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RE: Reflections - 5/27/2009 12:06:12 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		These two statements are why I made my intitial post to your thread..  When I see someone saying their behavior good or bad reflects on their dominant I wonder "doesn't it matter that it reflects on YOU?'  As if unless there is someone guiding them they would be content to be rude, sloths, with no drive to seek out better.
I spend my time with people I respect, people who share similar values, who have a fair amount of intelligence and a good dose of confidence.  People like me.  I am not a brat... the mere thought of that, brings a sense of unease and discomfort to be that "inner uncontrolled undisciplined child" which was held up to me as the example of what I must not become.  I am horrified by the idea of being seen as deficient. And so I wonder, who are these people who need to be guided to change?  Why would someone choose them?  Especially if they chose them to to make them Eliza Doolittle instead of the people they are.  Once again it goes back to why commit to someone if you want to change them? 
I do see myself more as an accessory rather than the main component.  He choses me because I suit his taste, much like his car or his clothing.  But I don't define him, nor does he define me, we are unique.
To be accepted for who you is a wonderful thing. 
A store manager once told me that there is a customer out there for every product, even if we believe that product is an eyesore.  Chosing a mate is like chosing a product.  We buy what we like.  They are only glimpse of our taste, they should not be the value we place upon ourselves.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: oceanwinds

With that being said, i would want to be a positive reflection for Sir as well as others who know me. I cannot be with someone who didnt have a good reflection either for me to compliment. So yes both would intertwine together and be two bright lights shining alone and /or one, at any given time.

I would not want to be with someone who i could not respect, and those closest to me frown on bratty name calling behavior. We both felt that way and respected not just us, but those around. Even if we did not agree with them, we would not lower our standards. So is a reflection more of a standard of living? I don't know.


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RE: Reflections - 5/27/2009 12:20:18 PM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline 		Kyst, i was never much on that "reflecting" others trip either. Every relationship i have ever been in has taught me something. So in reality i am a reflection of my experiences NOT of people that were or are in my life.

_____________________________

Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Mike posts in black font
candy posts in pink font

(in reply to Missokyst)
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RE: Reflections - 5/27/2009 12:47:26 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

As a reflection I am only his choice, not the reflection of who he is.
Kyst


I've edited it down to this. Because this is how I see it. How I act doesn't reflect who he is, but it does reflect his choices in life. And vice versa. Who we choose to associate with says a lot about us. Like LaT said, a drug user, an alcoholic, a bigot, etc in a partner of mine says a lot about me, all bad. It says I can't see the difference between good people and bad, between healthy and unhealthy.

And it is fair for people to assume that if my most intimate friend is a bad and unhealthy person, that I must enjoy a fair bit of that myself or I wouldn't be compatible.

But this nonsense about bowing to other dominants, calling them sir on the forums, that means nothing to me. Because I view all that as an artificial construct. I could say all the right stuff but not be the right kind of person in my actions. I'd rather live in a way I could meet my own reflection in the mirror and not care about how strangers and outsiders see me.

Oh and I'm submissive, but only to one. And that one is a person who is a good person in all the ways that matter to me.



_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


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RE: Reflections - 5/27/2009 12:58:23 PM   
oceanwinds


Posts: 530
Status: offline 		Thank you Missokyst

After thinking and sleeping on this, i can say, no a Dom nor a Master is really responsible on how their s-type presents themselves to the public. If a s-type does not have enough self-worth and respect for themselves, it is their problem and not the Dom. That would be where a choice to be a part of someone's life would take place.

I am big on self responsibility and did have a problem understanding why someone would be a reflection on anyone. Heck i seen people come from horrible childhoods that have a healthy sense of worth.

Thanks for giving me some food for thought
:)

< Message edited by oceanwinds -- 5/27/2009 12:59:25 PM >

_____________________________

I know where I came from and where I am today. I am forever grateful to all that touched my life. Thank you all and especially you, Goddess.

(in reply to Missokyst)
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RE: Reflections - 5/27/2009 1:14:50 PM   
oceanwinds


Posts: 530
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

As a reflection I am only his choice, not the reflection of who he is.
Kyst


I've edited it down to this. Because this is how I see it. How I act doesn't reflect who he is, but it does reflect his choices in life. And vice versa. Who we choose to associate with says a lot about us. Like LaT said, a drug user, an alcoholic, a bigot, etc in a partner of mine says a lot about me, all bad. It says I can't see the difference between good people and bad, between healthy and unhealthy.

And it is fair for people to assume that if my most intimate friend is a bad and unhealthy person, that I must enjoy a fair bit of that myself or I wouldn't be compatible.

But this nonsense about bowing to other dominants, calling them sir on the forums, that means nothing to me. Because I view all that as an artificial construct. I could say all the right stuff but not be the right kind of person in my actions. I'd rather live in a way I could meet my own reflection in the mirror and not care about how strangers and outsiders see me.

Oh and I'm submissive, but only to one. And that one is a person who is a good person in all the ways that matter to me.




I agree with all your points here  DesFIP



< Message edited by oceanwinds -- 5/27/2009 1:15:57 PM >

_____________________________

I know where I came from and where I am today. I am forever grateful to all that touched my life. Thank you all and especially you, Goddess.

(in reply to DesFIP)
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RE: Reflections - 5/27/2009 2:02:29 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		Just a thought... When I first came to these boards (and for that matter. WIITWD as a whole), I saw posts by Mercnbeth. Most of the posts I saw were written by Beth. What I got from my reading was a woman who was deeply deeply submissive to her Master and yet competent, a clear thinker and articulate writer, someone who clearly had opinions and was willing to defend them. My thought was, "I want to meet the man who got that much submission in such a clearly healthy way out of such a woman."

In that way, Beth was a reflection on Merc in my eyes.

And Merc.. if you're reading this, you lived up to the hype *laughs*

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Missokyst)
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RE: Reflections - 5/27/2009 2:04:54 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I think for me, it really all goes back to an old saying I remember hearing. Something about being judged by the company you keep.

Whether we like it or not, we are.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Missokyst)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Reflections - 5/27/2009 2:10:24 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		That is exactly what I think.  I need to be OK with myself.  I don't really care what people think of me, I only care what people who are important to me, think of me.  And the idea that my being older, heavier, not blond, not using the correct fork, not picking out the right word, ect, should reflect on my mate in a poor way, placing value of his judgement..?  This terrifies me.  I grew up in a long shadow of mistakes.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I'd rather live in a way I could meet my own reflection in the mirror and not care about how strangers and outsiders see me.

Oh and I'm submissive, but only to one. And that one is a person who is a good person in all the ways that matter to me.




< Message edited by Missokyst -- 5/27/2009 2:11:57 PM >

(in reply to DesFIP)
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RE: Reflections - 5/27/2009 2:37:36 PM   
antipode


Posts: 1787
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

How can I change years of patterns to move into the modern world?


Move. Countries, continents, whatever. Force new input.

(in reply to Missokyst)
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RE: Reflections - 5/27/2009 3:32:06 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		LOL spoken like a dominant.  I have enough trouble walking out of my house in the morning. As for imput I pretty much do that by changing jobs.  From an artist to a dancer, to a tech and everything in between.  In or out I still end up as me.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

quote:

How can I change years of patterns to move into the modern world?


Move. Countries, continents, whatever. Force new input.


(in reply to antipode)
Profile   Post #: 20
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