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RE: Definition of cheating? - 5/24/2009 9:37:59 AM   
LafayetteLady


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From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen

I'm surprised that no one has brought it up but there are often two definitions of cheating within a BDSM relationship - what the Dom/me is allowed to do and what the sub is allowed.  For instance, the sub might be told that they are to keep themselves only for their Dom/me, that they may show no nude photos of themselves and that their heart belongs only to the Dom/me.  Yet at the same time a poly Dom/me may feel that they can have open relationships with whomever they want.  That includes intimacy both with and without sex.  I have seen that it is not uncommon for a double standard to exist. 


Likely no one brought it up because they agreed to have a monogamous relationship.  When that agreement is made at the start, his unilaterally deciding to change it or reinterpret the definition is a violation of trust.


quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen
Also, if the Dom in this case feels that he is NOT cheating, yet the sub does, he may feel that it is well within his rights as a Dom to do as he chooses.  While it may hurt her feelings she needs to decide whether to accept the perceived intimacy with others.  Is that a hard limit in their relationship?  Is it something that is likely to change if they have a discussion about it? 


If he feels it is within his right to re-define previous agreements just because he feels like it, and uses his "dom" status to justify the behavior, regardless of the pain he is causing, he is a jerk, plain and simple.  Agreeing to monogamy at the start, in my opinion, was making that a "hard limit."  Using the concept that since he is the "dom" and can change the rules as it suits him regardless of initial instructions....well....it shows what kind of person he is and it ain't looking good.  Will a discussion change that?  Not likely, because he has already shown he doesn't give a hoot.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen

Couple that with the thread about her not getting the positive feedback that she desires and it could well be true that his intimacy with another is getting in the way of him giving her the amount of attention she needs.  It could also mean that she is just scared that could happen and so if feeling more needy.  If she needs the positive attention, for whatever reason, there is nothing wrong with asking for it.  However, none of us can look inside of their relationship to see what's really going on.  He may feel resentful at her asking for more attention thinking that it is only as a follow up of her being upset that he is talking with someone else even though he feels it will go no further than conversations and so doesn't see it as anything wrong.  OR he could be getting ready to become sexually active with another and is purposely shunning her because of his infatuation.  There is no way that any of us can know that.



However her requests make him feel, his response is inappropriate.  He says "ok" and then never follows through.  If he is resentful, he needs to say so. His not being able or wanting to communicate or exert his authority as "dom," he is showing that he just took the fancy title and in no way has the right to have it.  I think we can all agree that being the dom/master in the relationship is not simply about him doing what he wants when he wants.  When you abuse what you have, what you have may not be yours for long.

There are many fantasical ideas about D/s relationships, but in real life, it is still two (or more) people who have feelings and needs, just like any "vanilla" relationship.  Only a fool continues to feel unfufilled and unhappy and sticks around because they are a "slave."

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RE: Definition of cheating? - 5/24/2009 10:24:44 AM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
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Status: offline 		Imo, cheating is oral, anal, or vaginal sex as well as any contact that involves the genital regions of one or however many parties are involved.  Being in the presence of one another is necessary for me to consider something cheating (
I don't consider cybering or camming cheating). 
There are some areas that approach cheating but, imo, aren't cheating, like kissing, caressing, etc. 
Dishonesty is a much more broad area than strictly chreating, imo.
  Davan


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RE: Definition of cheating? - 5/24/2009 10:29:14 AM   
WarKirby


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Joined: 11/22/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

Imo, cheating is oral, anal, or vaginal sex as well as any contact that involves the genital regions of one or however many parties are involved.  Being in the presence of one another is necessary for me to consider something cheating (
I don't consider cybering or camming cheating). 
There are some areas that approach cheating but, imo, aren't cheating, like kissing, caressing, etc. 
Dishonesty is a much more broad area than strictly chreating, imo.
Davan



Cheating is none of these things.

Cheating is going outside the defined boundaries of your relationship, simply. For many, this is betwee only two people. For many others, between a larger number of parties. Some relationships allow one person (the dominant usually) to take as many partners as they wish, while others (subs) are restricted only to the dom. Even speaking to a person of the opposite gender can be cheating for the sub, if the dominant decides it so.


There are no hard and fast definitions of cheating. It is simply defined by the people in the relationship, and the only thing that's important, is that they agree on the definition.

< Message edited by WarKirby -- 5/24/2009 10:30:33 AM >

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RE: Definition of cheating? - 5/25/2009 6:50:00 AM   
WIman


Posts: 3
Joined: 5/25/2009
Status: offline 		Redmagic1 ... has the answer. If your significant other would say it is cheating then that is the definition.

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RE: Definition of cheating? - 5/25/2009 8:10:18 AM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		LafayetteLady, I agree with your points.  From an outsider's viewpoint having heard only one side of the story it seems that he is being callous.  The main point that I was trying to make is that if their definitions of "cheating" are different - as seems the case - he may truly feel that he is not in the wrong.  If that is the case he may not understand why she needs the extra attention.  You can see by the responses here that many have different attitudes about what cheating is.  The first paragraph I wrote was that in some cases one standard applies to the sub and another to the Dom, not that this was necessarily true in their case.

A caring Dom/me, ideally, will look after their sub.  In the real world some are better at this than others.  The sub needs to communicate clearly, and if their needs are not being met, and if their wants are largely ignored, then they have the choice to leave.  It is easy to jump to conclusions when we see only a small piece of the puzzle.  She never said her needs were never met, just that he seems to have overreacted to her recent requests. 

While in some ways living a BDSM lifestyle can seem like a fantasy come true it most certainly has a base of a relationship, and it takes constant work to make sure that it stays healthy.  It can be a difficult balance for a sub to put someone else's pleasure first and to know how much to ask for in return, just as it can be difficult for a Dom/me to decide how much to take and how much to give back.  Some people are much better at the balancing act than others.  Either side can start to fall into bad habits and allow the commication to break down and the trust to fade.  Then incorrect assumptions are easy to jump to (in my own experience).  It is obvious that the OP has been hurt and is confused.  I wish her the best in the decisions that she will have to make.


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RE: Definition of cheating? - 5/25/2009 8:28:45 AM   
bearly2001


Posts: 28
Joined: 11/24/2008
Status: offline 		cheating for me is a violation of my ethical code or standards. i have no deifinition of what cheating is for others, they must live with their choices as i do.

in my case, i am a happily married man of 37 years. my wife is strictly vanilla but understands my dom nature and traits. when i expressed my desire to explore them, i suggested to her that i would like to seek ongoing online-only d/s relationships. i told her that i would never meet any of these submissives, and i would have considered it cheating not to let her know of my desire to engage in this activity. i am not going to bullshit anyone here, she isn't crazy about it, lol, and doesn't thoroughly understand what i get out of it. but she trusts me implicitly based on our years together. she knows that i am a man of integrity and character and that her primacy in my heart is unthreatened.

to deceive is self deception, to cheat is to cheat one's self, and in so doing, we become our own victims.. it lessens and demeans our value to others and steals the pleasure of the intimacies we so desire.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Definition of cheating? - 5/25/2009 8:44:50 AM   
fuzzywumpas


Posts: 43
Joined: 3/17/2009
From: A galaxy far, far away...
Status: offline 		I appreciate all the responses, it's given me a lot to think on......

There was no question on what monogamy means to each of us, it was something discussed quite clearly and in-depth before the relationship moved forward. We both had/have our reasons for a strict monogamous relationship with each other. i knew He was a flirt, which was discussed. Flirting was ok, cybering was not. What i am told when i have tried to discuss it is that it is a non-issue since He's not out fucking other women and that it's not "cybering" but "creative writing". In fact, the few times, i've tried to discuss this calmly, He gets very upset and mad. i have tried to phrase it in such a way as "when this happens, i feel hurt, ignored, neglected and that upsets me." Especially considering that certain habits have decreased our intimacy, fairly extensively. i'm not trying to top from the bottom but to communicate clearly AS HE DEMANDED. He flat out refused to get into a relationship without open communication. So needless to say, when i'm trying to do what has been asked of me, and get shut down or ignored, yes, it hurts like hell.

When i've asked for special time, like snuggle time or little girl time, again, it's something that's been talked about previously. Or i state "because of A, B, C and D, i'm feeling really stressed, sick and tired, may we please have some cuddle time tonight?" i'm usually told yes, no problem but then nothing ever happens. Because of a previous relationship and problems with it (a passive-aggressive ex-partner) i absolutely refuse to do anything that resembles nagging. i will do a reminder and then i believe it should be up to the other partner to also remember. If we each have our responsibilities, wouldn't that include remembering something that has been expressed as "important"? i do my best but it seems that the rules have been changed without notice, if that makes sense. *shrugs*

i'm not perfect, i'm the first to admit it. i also admit that with everything going, i find myself retreating into myself because of the questions, a feeling of "why bother if it's just going to be ignored or blown off?" At a time when communication is critical, i find myself closing myself off because of past responses. Not good... Now the question is, can i overcome that? And the answer is, it really depends a lot on Him. Communication is a 2-way street. We'll see.....

Thanks again for the responses.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Definition of cheating? - 5/25/2009 6:15:15 PM   
LafayetteLady


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Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		You've tried over and over again to communicate.  He is obviously one of those who feels that with a computer between him and someone else, it isn't "cheating."  To be clear, it isn't "creative writing" if he the "writing" is part of a conversation with someone else.  If he wants to write stories, there are sites that will allow him to publish to his heart's content.

FW, how long are you going to continue to try?  How much hurt does he need to continue to cause before you say "ENOUGH"?  You are quite right that communication is a two way street, but it seems that you have gotten more communication from everyone posting to your thread than you have gotten from him in a much longer period of time.

At this point, I suggest that you tell him flat out that there are some issues that if the two of you cannot resolve with each other, than you will be left with no choice but to end the relationship and find someone who can meet your needs in a more productive and less hurtful manner.  Yes, it is an ultimatum, but perhaps he doesn't really see the problem as being as serious as you.  That might be the surest way to get him to deal with the situation.  If he brushes that off, then although it will be painful, you know what you will need to do.  Try telling him that you have some things that you want to discuss with him and you would like to do so at "such and such time" if you know his schedule, or ask for a specific time to sit down and do so, and then make sure when that time comes, you hold him to it and have the discussion.

Good luck.

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RE: Definition of cheating? - 5/25/2009 6:31:45 PM   
DemonKia


Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline 		Respectfully, Davan, may I request clarification?

My understanding of cybering or camming is that it can feature mutual or unilateral masturbation. So would you consider masturbation as part of cybering or camming with some other to be cheating? Or approaching-but-not-actually cheating? I was unclear about this point from your posting . . . .

Thanks much.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

Imo, cheating is oral, anal, or vaginal sex as well as any contact that involves the genital regions of one or however many parties are involved.  Being in the presence of one another is necessary for me to consider something cheating ( I don't consider cybering or camming cheating). 
There are some areas that approach cheating but, imo, aren't cheating, like kissing, caressing, etc. 
Dishonesty is a much more broad area than strictly chreating, imo.
  Davan




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RE: Definition of cheating? - 5/25/2009 6:58:16 PM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline 		For me to feel that someone has cheated on me they have to have been involved physically with the other person. Intimate physical activity. Anything up to but not including that might be considered 'conspiracy to commit cheating' but until that physical threshold is breached I would not considered myself having been cheated on. There is clearly an issue that needs to be addressed, but it isn't yet cheating.

This is how I personally feel about it in my relationship and I think everyone sets that bar for themselves in their own relationships. Some definitions are pretty lenient and others are very strict. Cheating is in the eye of the beholder. There is no 14th Amendment when it comes to cheating.

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RE: Definition of cheating? - 5/25/2009 9:13:58 PM   
breatheasone


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Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline 		~~FR~~
One thing for real i am taking away from this thread, is that CLEARLY there are many points of view on what is and isn't cheating, So Therefore! everyone in a given relationship should be crystal F*UCKIN clear what they (all) constitute as cheating BEFORE any commitments are given.


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RE: Definition of cheating? - 5/25/2009 9:23:25 PM   
AlexandraLynch


Posts: 778
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline 		For us, at least, cheating is breaking the rules we agreed on.

Can I cheat? Sure. If I meet someone off here without my husband there, I'm cheating, I'm breaking the rule we agreed to. Can he cheat? Sure. If he goes to his submissive's house instead of coming home and doesn't let me know, he's cheating.

But we are so tightly bonded, he and I, that breaking the rules is not good and requires talking out to figure out why it happened, but I would never and he would never leave over it.

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RE: Definition of cheating? - 5/25/2009 9:30:25 PM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline 		i agree cheating doesn't have to end it. my husband cheated on me after 17 years of marriage, that was eight years ago. i didn't leave. So while it may not have ended the marriage, it sure did change it. Thats just not something i will EVER tolerate in my life ever again. To be honest, i just don't think i have it in me....the strength i mean.

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RE: Definition of cheating? - 5/25/2009 9:44:26 PM   
LATEXBABY64


Posts: 2107
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Status: offline 		people cheat cause they think it is ok to  cheat and are to stuborn to commit to someone but there are some who do hold a relationship in high regards and of great value

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RE: Definition of cheating? - 5/26/2009 8:02:32 AM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: breatheasone
One thing for real i am taking away from this thread, is that CLEARLY there are many points of view on what is and isn't cheating, So Therefore! everyone in a given relationship should be crystal F*UCKIN clear what they (all) constitute as cheating BEFORE any commitments are given.


That's a nice sentiment and it would be great if it worked that way but I think we know it often does not work that way. I can just see sitting down with someone hashing out what does and does not constitute cheating. Fun to be a fly on the wall for that discussion. "Honey, if I get bored and my mind wanders... precisely how far can it wander before you'd consider it cheating?" I can think of at least two formers partners that might have shot me dead just for posing that question.



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RE: Definition of cheating? - 5/26/2009 11:35:02 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

That's a nice sentiment and it would be great if it worked that way but I think we know it often does not work that way. I can just see sitting down with someone hashing out what does and does not constitute cheating. Fun to be a fly on the wall for that discussion. "Honey, if I get bored and my mind wanders... precisely how far can it wander before you'd consider it cheating?" I can think of at least two formers partners that might have shot me dead just for posing that question.



See, that's kinda the point, though -- In my mind, if a former partner would have had that much of a hairy kiniption over it, that would be the final word, and that word would be "incompatible". Because I am clearly and intrinsically poly, and in a case like this, its pretty clear that my personal standards are not only significantly different -but also would leave me in a situation where conforming to the other person's standards will leave me feeling resentful about what I would be having to give up for the relationship, then that -clearly- isn't a relationship I want to be in. If someone is going to rip my head off just for -asking-, and for clarifying what certain key concepts mean in -their- minds, they -definitely- aren't open enough in communication areas for me, either... so not having the conversation, just because it may make someone uncomfortable or expose weaknesses or incompatibilities in the relationship... that's just... not smart, in my mind.

Dame Calla


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RE: Definition of cheating? - 5/26/2009 11:38:55 AM   
ElectraGlide


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From: Maryland
Status: offline 		If you have to make a definition, I would call it cheating. That would mean you were walking on hazy ground and were looking for a lame explanation to validate yourself.

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