Loving a victim

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LovingDom86 -> Loving a victim (5/15/2009 7:57:42 AM)
I humbly ask your sincere thoughts on the matter. Dealing with a victim of abuse, physical, emotional, psychological, having been through absolutely disgusting, inhuman, sickening acts for large portions of their life; how does one expose to them that love, relationships, and BDSM for that matter are NOT any of the horrible things they have been through? Someone whose idea of "being submissive" comes only from the absolutely despicable idiots they have been with, whose idea of a "Dom" is someone who dishes out this torture? I naively believe that love can heal all, but I also have a bit of a "white knight" syndrome in wanting to help situations that are sometimes over my head, and I have absolutely no experience or authority as a therapist of any sort. Has anyone helped victims in the past? Is constant reinforcement of the truth and gently taking things at a comfortable pace all One can do? I would greatly appreciate thoughts on the matter. Thank you, LD

LaTigresse -> RE: Loving a victim (5/15/2009 7:58:43 AM)
The best thing you can do is take them to a professional and be their supportive friend when they need it.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Loving a victim (5/15/2009 8:06:34 AM)
What LaT said.

oceanwinds -> RE: Loving a victim (5/15/2009 8:09:33 AM)
The submissive must really want to heal on it, and it hurts. A professional is the best way, but a Dom can be of help. i am a victim of several rapes plus a gang rape. One thing that would throw me into flashbacks was giving oral to my late hubby, and to Sir. i went through counseling regarding this while married, but the flashbacks would come back here and there. My late hubby understood and helped me to a point, but he didnt push it. Sir worked with me the first 2 years of our 3 year friendship. It was a very slow process, but today i have no more flash backs. The point is i was tired of being a victim, so was willing to put the effort in, plus Sir had to build a level of trust in me, before we could even move on with this. My own advice for a Dom though is to send her to counseling, because the level of trust doesnt get built between two people that fast, in my book it doesn't. Plus perhaps my age has something to do with it as well, will never been someone's victim again. Wont let the past hold me down. Don't know if what i said has helped. oceanwinds

LovingDom86 -> RE: Loving a victim (5/15/2009 8:19:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: oceanwinds The submissive must really want to heal on it, and it hurts. A professional is the best way, but a Dom can be of help. i am a victim of several rapes plus a gang rape. One thing that would throw me into flashbacks was giving oral to my late hubby, and to Sir. i went through counseling regarding this while married, but the flashbacks would come back here and there. My late hubby understood and helped me to a point, but he didnt push it. Sir worked with me the first 2 years of our 3 year friendship. It was a very slow process, but today i have no more flash backs. The point is i was tired of being a victim, so was willing to put the effort in, plus Sir had to build a level of trust in me, before we could even move on with this. My own advice for a Dom though is to send her to counseling, because the level of trust doesnt get built between two people that fast, in my book it doesn't. Plus perhaps my age has something to do with it as well, will never been someone's victim again. Wont let the past hold me down. Don't know if what i said has helped. oceanwinds Thank you, and all my respect for being a survivor:) That helped very much. What if said submissive still does not believe she has been abused? That the illegal treatment she has been through was "just training" and part of all BDSM? I have directed her to the forums here, and many other informative sites; one of my main concerns is that she has just been SO misinformed and lied to by the abuser that I just want her to see what things actually are, and get this bastardized, abusive idea out of her head. But I do feel gentility and compassion is the way to go.

oceanwinds -> RE: Loving a victim (5/15/2009 8:27:11 AM)
LovingDom, If she does not recognize it, then you must accept she doesn't. Giving her information to educate herself is a great idea. One other thing, both late hubby and Sir were/are not white knights. They didnt enter a relationship with me to save me. This for me was the best type of person i could have been with. If i fell, and i did many times, they expected me to pick myself up. For my type of persona it is the only thing that would work for me. Just something I thought I would present to you. Not saying it is the only way, but for me it is.

Reyn -> RE: Loving a victim (5/15/2009 8:32:50 AM)
A professional is really what is required. But if I may add -- primarly a victim group is often physically unhealthy and lacking in social skills. A huge need just for simple non-challanging care in a safe environment where they can slowly rebuild their ability to look after themselves ( clean and order their body and immediate environment ) and eat really good well presented nutritionally wholesome meals can do wonders. It is common to track recovery through desire like appetite and unprompted willingess to engage in personal preeening and small acts of assistance and keeping fit ( walking or whatever ). Be their best friend, never judge, always accepting of anything physically, mentally or emotionally expressed or volunteered goes a long way. Then slowly gently providing assistance acceptable to their personal perception of their needs and respecting how they wish to resolve them. The more their confidence is restored and validated by allowing them to select solutions no matter how silly or trivial they appear on the surface the better the resulting balance. Constant reinforcement of the truth is a possible later step but it needs to be their unprompted volunteering of the truth from their perspective. Usually there is very little energy so overwhelm of their authority for effecting personal healing in their personal life can occur very easily. A great deal of physical rest and possibly things like meditation or even home crafts will slowly externalize their confidence. Love, respect, honor and friendship go a long way. But really it will need a professional to bridge the chasms as only the professional has access to certain solutions, is sensitized to certain issues and is familiar with working solutions.

Fitznicely -> RE: Loving a victim (5/15/2009 8:42:35 AM)
I have experience of LD86's role. My girl is a victim of family abuse. She didn't see herself as a victim, believing she was the instigator and perpetuator of her abuse. I too her out of the abusive environment and slowly, over the last 12 years, worked on each of her issues - which have been many and varied. One aspect was that she didn't see herself as a victim, believing herself to be the instigator and perpetuator of the abuses inflicted on her. Through example and logical discussions, we've worked that one through and instead of the loathing and low self-esteem that comes with internalising her disgust at what was done to her, she has a healthy anger towards the ones who abused her. We've tried professional help on a number of occasions. Each time it was unhelpful, even more hurtful. Medication turned her into a Zombie. I refused to allow either to continue and decided to deal with her myself. Which I have done. Successfully. LD86 - I would suggest you focus on proving your point with actions, building trust by demonstrating small ways in hich she can believe you and trust you and not be able to deny it, reinforcing that each person is different and that these people who trained her DID actually abuse her, that it wasn't HER that deserved the abuse but their fucked up little minds that made them take advantage of her. Respect her hard limits, but be aware that some of what she agrees to may be a part of her conditioning, as opposed to something she actually gets pleasure/release/positive mental stimulation from. What you need to be is counsellor, friend, rock. You need to be above reproach, unquestionably reliable and sensetive as you can be. Good luck.

LovingDom86 -> RE: Loving a victim (5/15/2009 8:51:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fitznicely We've tried professional help on a number of occasions. Each time it was unhelpful, even more hurtful. Medication turned her into a Zombie. I refused to allow either to continue and decided to deal with her myself. Which I have done. Successfully. Thank you for the wonderful post! This quoted section, however, proved of particular interest. I will be the first to admit a very strong personal bias against "professional counseling" I have seen it ruin lives, some very close to mine, and had I the choice, I would completely do away with this part of healing. It can be even MORE confusing, I should think, to have 3+ different people telling you all sorts of different things. I'm so happy to see that it CAN be done and HAS been done the old fashioned way, which I feel may be the best way. I understand that it takes an exhaustive amount of time and patience, but it is incredibly reassuring to see that there IS a light at the end of the tunnel:) Thank you all so much for your input; it is helping immensely. LD

oceanwinds -> RE: Loving a victim (5/15/2009 9:03:24 AM)
Best of luck then LovingDom. i too have been a victim of the mental health field. I remember my last counselor, who got me so upset i got up and walked out. She could not handle what i told her that happen to me, so told me to change religions and become saved. This was a state run mental health place. On my files, it was marked that i was raised Jewish. My late hubby was so pist that he went in and tore the place up. Just make sure you are up to this, that is my only thought here. It is such a hard process to get through. blessings, oceanwinds

LovingDom86 -> RE: Loving a victim (5/15/2009 9:07:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: oceanwindsShe could not handle what i told her that happen to me, so told me to change religions and become saved. Oh dear... I'm sorry lol And this is one of the reasons I feel how I do about that... Thank you:P LD

LeatherBentOne -> RE: Loving a victim (5/15/2009 10:25:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LovingDom86 I humbly ask your sincere thoughts on the matter. Dealing with a victim of abuse, physical, emotional, psychological, having been through absolutely disgusting, inhuman, sickening acts for large portions of their life; how does one expose to them that love, relationships, and BDSM for that matter are NOT any of the horrible things they have been through? Someone whose idea of "being submissive" comes only from the absolutely despicable idiots they have been with, whose idea of a "Dom" is someone who dishes out this torture? I naively believe that love can heal all, but I also have a bit of a "white knight" syndrome in wanting to help situations that are sometimes over my head, and I have absolutely no experience or authority as a therapist of any sort. Has anyone helped victims in the past? Is constant reinforcement of the truth and gently taking things at a comfortable pace all One can do? I would greatly appreciate thoughts on the matter. Thank you, LD I was with a boi who had abuse of all types from her father in her childhood. Like some have stated, trust is the key. I established trust by not being in a hurry to go beyond friendship. In fact, it took 3 months before we kissed. Then D/s and S/m were taken slowly after explaining to her the details, including my intentions as a result. I acquainted her with toys, much as I do with an inexperienced sub, gradually, moving to different levels of sensations, explaining that toys dont necessarily hurt. They can tickle, smell good, and used to sexually arouse. I let her move at her pace, not mine and as she slowly made her way. I remember her telling me that her father use to choke her to unconsciousness; however, one night I was able to grasp her neck in such a way as I could prevent her from breathing if I chose to by lightly pressing my finger tips on her windpipe. Alas, she began to meow. Best of Luck, LBO

Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Loving a victim (5/15/2009 10:38:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LovingDom86 quote: ORIGINAL: Fitznicely We've tried professional help on a number of occasions. Each time it was unhelpful, even more hurtful. Medication turned her into a Zombie. I refused to allow either to continue and decided to deal with her myself. Which I have done. Successfully. Thank you for the wonderful post! This quoted section, however, proved of particular interest. I will be the first to admit a very strong personal bias against "professional counseling" I have seen it ruin lives, some very close to mine, and had I the choice, I would completely do away with this part of healing. It can be even MORE confusing, I should think, to have 3+ different people telling you all sorts of different things. I'm so happy to see that it CAN be done and HAS been done the old fashioned way, which I feel may be the best way. I understand that it takes an exhaustive amount of time and patience, but it is incredibly reassuring to see that there IS a light at the end of the tunnel:) Thank you all so much for your input; it is helping immensely. LD I have a bit of a bias against some of the "profession help" stuff as well. The girl I was with for 7 1/2 years was on prozac when I first met her. I encouraged her and supported her and supported changes in her life. Anyways, long story short amazing how far love, encourage, understanding and support can go with somebody. She ended up going off the prozac, going to college, graduating with honors, and now she is working out in the field helping Rape/abuse victims. This is something she wanted to do. Actually she's damn good at her job because she understand the struggles and issues. Some real horror stories start to happen when Doctors not therapist are involved in the Professional Help area. For instance Bi-Polar disorder is the most over used diagonisis. People end up on drugs and the drugs themselves effect people. True horror story, is that I know somebody who has a brother, who got more messed up because of all the drugs he's been prescribed over the years. In terms of mental health, I would remcommend therapy over the drugs. Try to deal with things from a holistic mindset first and foremost. Unless they are hearing voices in their head and they are actually thinking extreme thoughts of harming themselves or others. The Professional help that some people get, is nothing more then seeing a legalized drug dealer that spends 20 minutes with them to write out a prescription. Therapist range from good to bad. The truth be known, the victim has to actually work upon their own issues and they need love and a good solid support system. Doing a lot of reading, Self help books and talking. Establishing goals and directions. Having compassion and understanding. People who have been abused can grow when they feel safe, loved and cared about, and that somebody actually gives a damn. People without support systems, tend to crash and burn time and time again. So, being a white knight Dom is not a bad thing. If the submissive in question is not willing to face their own problems or issues. It takes time and it's not always easy. It all depends upon both the DOM and submissive in question. I think too many try to pass off having responsibility these days. TV sets and video games are the baby sitters, if your child or loved one has issues, toss them into therapy. Yadda Yadda Yadda... Everybody has issues of some form or another. Some people more issues compared to others. You have to become aware of triggers. and the victim does as well. Both people become attune to it. Do alot of talking and communicating with one another. Grow together. Try to do as much as can be done without all kinds of Drugs involved. Drugs are Drugs regardless if they are legalized ones or not. People need to think it over very carefully before they blindly start taking drugs cause some Doctor writes them out a prescription for it. I recommend trying to deal with things on the holistic or natural methods before resorting to drugs. I myself am not a trained, certified proffessional in the mental health field, but I'm not a complete idiot either.

angelikaJ -> RE: Loving a victim (5/15/2009 10:51:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LovingDom86 quote: ORIGINAL: Fitznicely We've tried professional help on a number of occasions. Each time it was unhelpful, even more hurtful. Medication turned her into a Zombie. I refused to allow either to continue and decided to deal with her myself. Which I have done. Successfully. Thank you for the wonderful post! This quoted section, however, proved of particular interest. I will be the first to admit a very strong personal bias against "professional counseling" I have seen it ruin lives, some very close to mine, and had I the choice, I would completely do away with this part of healing. It can be even MORE confusing, I should think, to have 3+ different people telling you all sorts of different things. I'm so happy to see that it CAN be done and HAS been done the old fashioned way, which I feel may be the best way. I understand that it takes an exhaustive amount of time and patience, but it is incredibly reassuring to see that there IS a light at the end of the tunnel:) Thank you all so much for your input; it is helping immensely. LD There are very good therapists and therapists that are not competent. IF she is lacking perspective a kink friendly therapist could very well be helpful. http://www.ncsfreedom.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=75 You can not heal that which you are unable to acknowledge.

Fitznicely -> RE: Loving a victim (5/15/2009 11:38:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ You can not heal that which you are unable to acknowledge. I understand your point of view, but having done just that, I say that you can. First comes acknowledgment, and all the trauma that brings with it. Once you've worked through that, you can begin to heal.

Arpig -> RE: Loving a victim (5/15/2009 12:18:24 PM)
Fitz...you disagreed with angelika "I understand your point of view, but having done just that, I say that you can." and then you agreed with her "First comes acknowledgment, and all the trauma that brings with it. Once you've worked through that, you can begin to heal."[:)]

Fitznicely -> RE: Loving a victim (5/15/2009 12:30:22 PM)
Arpig, I guess so. My girl wouldn't acknowledge for a long time that she wasn't to blame for what happened to her. When she did, she began healing. Had I taken angelika's POV and left it alone, there are many other aspects of her healing which I would have been unable to unlock. I want to make the point, for the OP's benefit, that it's at least possible - without professional intervention.

oceanwinds -> RE: Loving a victim (5/15/2009 12:35:22 PM)
Please accept my apologies if i am monopolizing this topic to much, but it really hits home for me. 1st i am one that was mis-diagnosed as a bi-polar. i am not. i have gone through loads of counselors, most not worth a dime. But then for me to trust someone doesnt come easy, so i take partial responsibility there in not opening up to these counselors. I was married a long time, and for most of our marriage, 29 years, hubby helped me through many issues; agorophobia and depression just to name a few. When the going got rough, he didn't bolt on me. What he taught me in those years was to be able to depend on myself. To not seek approval from outside, but within. He did a dang good job, because 9 months prior to his death we moved to Fla. so he could live a little better. He was dying and time was a factor here. So after 9 months, he died and i was in a state knowing only 1 person, Mom. Reality was Mom was way to busy with her life and i seldom talked or seen her. So, i was totally on my own with no one to pick up the pieces when i lost my husband. If he didnt teach me how he did, i never would made it. Now as a consultant to many people, it is too common to hear, mostly women, whose spouse, lovers , Dom whatever leave them and they are totally without the skills to stand our their own two feet. The only thing they can think of is to find someone to take care of them. Is this really helping a person grow? Another scenerio that is too common, is he left because he couldnt deal with my emotional baggage. So again they get hurt and the lack of trust is cut deeper. I do not know how long, OP you been with her. I know you have great hopes, and someone here has had success in doing so, but it is not a commitment to take lightly. It will wear you down, and all in all you got to help her become self -aware, self-assure and build self-love. She will screw up over and over, will you pamper her or be hard? Not saying either way is best, pampering me is a dead-end. I am fortunate both men who i value in my life knew that and understood. She has to do the majority of the work herself, and you must hold her accountable. As i said, i apologize if i am monopolizing this too much, but this topic i have lived and have seen women who ended up with white knights devastated and hurt more then anything.

LovingDom86 -> RE: Loving a victim (5/15/2009 12:37:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fitznicely My girl wouldn't acknowledge for a long time that she wasn't to blame for what happened to her. When she did, she began healing. Had I taken angelika's POV and left it alone, there are many other aspects of her healing which I would have been unable to unlock. That's exactly my fear; that she's sitting there alone in the quicksand, and all she needs is a helping hand to get her out of it before the vital self-healing and realization process can start. So laissez-faire govt doesn't work here:P Besides, I'm very much a do-er; sitting idly by and observing when I can be helping (though it may mean I also risk hurting) does not make sense to me. Your input has been very helpful:) LD

Lockit -> RE: Loving a victim (5/15/2009 12:46:25 PM)
My take on victimization is a bit different that what other's might see it as. I was victimized and decided that I was going to look at it as I do at a tender age. I think it was more stubborness than anything in the beginning. A few professionals wanted to understand how I survived it and said I should be in a nut house cracking my head against a wall basically. I always said... why should I be doing that when I can be out here doing all this? My stand was... yes they hurt me and it did hurt. I cried, I wrote it out, but I took a family saying and incorporated it into my life. When you get kicked down by life, pick yourself up, dust yourself off and get on with life. I admitted that I was victimized but I wasn't going to allow the bad guys to effect me past the point of what they did and once it was over, it was over. I wasn't going to dwell on it or let it change me because then I would be a victim and I saw that as them winning and my losing. I wasn't going to let them win! I made sure I learned how to be all I could be and not be put in a position of victimization without fear. I would not accept the title of victim. Yes, I had been victimized, but I was no longer being victimized and it was over and if I allowed what they did to harm me or change me... who was really victimizing me? I had an adult rape while doing an investigation to assist a helping agency, trying to protect some others. I had a rough couple of weeks over it but picked myself up and went on with it. I had a very wise friend who was talking to me all the way through it and watched me process it all. He finally said... You don't do victim very well do you? And he laughed... I laughed with him... No I don't. If the person you are speaking to is in denial, that will most likely crop up somewhere in life because it hasn't been dealt with. By forcing someone to deal with it, you are dealing with it in your time frame and not their's. If they are living happy and seem to be fine... leave it alone. If they are having serious problems with life.. then seek some help or try to deal with it. But if they know it happened and know it wasn't good and yet do not act the victim or feel they need to address it and are doing okay in life... don't push your need to make them a victim that needs something you think they need. They may be fine with it. If you believe that the only reason someone is into bdsm is because of some past abuse, you might consider those who were not victimized who are into it. If the past abuse has created a way of looking at things that isn't healthy... then a good professional may be needed and I do mean a good professional, not someone who fills their head with more nonsense and uses medication as their therapy. Medication may be needed in some cases... but I feel it is handed out too readily without the real work of getting through something and doing the emotional homework needed. I was told a number of times that I didn't act like a victim and therefore I must have something wrong with me. Well... it wasn't me sitting and crying or having nightmares or having life problems... so... what's the problem? Do I have to act the victim to validate that I was victimized? I got through it, went on with life and am happy and well adjusted and that is according to a number of professionals that knew me well, from meeting them outside the office and long talks about it all. When I have turned it all around and have taught many ways to be happy and live fully, I think I handled it and I am not a victim! I refuse to be...

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