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RE: Slavery-consent or accepted. - 5/3/2009 12:34:07 PM   
MsDDom


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quote:

Do you think that slavery is consensual*?
Or do you think that slavery is accepted?

both...slavery is consensual in this (bdsm) context and accepted there of...


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RE: Slavery-consent or accepted. - 5/3/2009 12:44:19 PM   
OmegaG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Ok, I was reading another thread and it just had me thinking and I decided to ask a question.
I am not wanting a standard BDSM definition because quite frankly, I know there isn't one.  So that said, personal, subjective (blahredtape).
 
Do you think that slavery is consensual*?
Or do you think that slavery is accepted?
 
Please notice the difference in the two definitions and understand I am talking about the choice of being a slave.  Not the 'loss of consent' once you are in a relationship, or tpe, or authority transfer.
 
the.dark.
(*.yeahiknow-loathe that wordsuckywordstupidwordbutwheninrome.)

 
I've been doing some thinking on the subject lately myself.
 
When we first met, I told him how I thought a relationship dynamic would look that I could funtion in without having to change my core personality.  He felt that I fit into the slave catagory rather then submissive.  I didn't care wha title was used really so long as I remained myself.
 
But lately he was talking to a friend of his and referred to me as a slave and it didn't sit well with me so it started me thinking.  I care about him and I like to keep him comfortable however, it's not an unbalanced relationship, nor would I want it to be, there is much he does for my comfort.
 
So is slavery concentually or accepted?  I agreed upon a relationship but I really only acquesce to his terminology and at this point it doesn't seem to fit.

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RE: Slavery-consent or accepted. - 5/3/2009 12:56:43 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone
By the way, I understand someone using the term slave or identifying as a slave within the BDSM context , but for me it  is clearly an adaptation of a defined state rather than an adoption of a real state.



That is why I stated that there is no set in stone logic or definition at the start (blahredtape).  I wanted to discover from each person.  I am making an assumption by what you have said that when you see the term slavery banded around you see the term that fits for slavery in the way that consensuality is pretty much void - like african slaves or those in india or say, people forced into the sex trade from eastern european countries(grasped out the air as an example).  Please correct me if I am wrong.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Slavery-consent or accepted. - 5/3/2009 1:35:33 PM   
lally2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone
By the way, I understand someone using the term slave or identifying as a slave within the BDSM context , but for me it  is clearly an adaptation of a defined state rather than an adoption of a real state.



agreed, but adaption of a defined state becomes an adoption of a real state.

if that were not the case we could all accuse each other of make believe and inconsequential promises, committments and random stupidity.

i dont believe any of us are prepared to trash our identies in that way, although ill freely admit i suffer from random stupidity on a regular basis.

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RE: Slavery-consent or accepted. - 5/3/2009 1:48:55 PM   
Lashra


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Status: offline 		Do you think that slavery is consensual*?
In BDSM is it supposed to be and even outside of it there are consensual slaves. Some people (male or female, or anyone in between)can desire slave status and go into it willingly (or out of need).

Or do you think that slavery is accepted?
Consensual slavery is accepted within the BDSM realm (and gor, tpe etc). In many third world countries it is acceptable still, but not in most enlightened countries.

My own personal view is this, if you want to be a slave than seek that which you desire. No one should be forced into slavery as it is an unnatural condtion for ALL people (regardless of gender). But for some with the personality and disposition for it, it is a natural condition.

Just my two cents,

~Lashra


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RE: Slavery-consent or accepted. - 5/3/2009 1:52:05 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I am talking about the choice of being a slave. 
 

 
Choice. You always have options, risks and rewards (there's a nice little quippy statement for those who appreciate that sort of thing :-) ). Someone holds a gun to your head, do you run, grab the gun or sit motionless - you have options and decisions to make even in the most extreme situations, and those decisions are based on the risks and rewards.

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RE: Slavery-consent or accepted. - 5/3/2009 1:58:30 PM   
barelynangel


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quote:

No one should be forced into slavery as it is an unnatural condtion for ALL people (regardless of gender). But for some with the personality and disposition for it, it is a natural condition.


These statements contradict each other. it can't be an UNnatural condition for ALL people and then be a natural condition for some. For many the forcing of the revealing of a slave is exactly what they need to accept and understand the instincts and reactions they have and they are then capable of identifying what these are. Many times its social modesties and the inability to allow yourself to be uninhibited that keeps many from accepting their place among Men, and yeah they may need a kick in the but to finally relax and accept their reactions and insticts they may not understand. WITHOUT that, they try and define something they have no clue what it is only they need it. Doesn't mean when they find it they willingly understand and go with it because MANY people don't easily go into what they do not understand.

So for some the forcing to face the truth is one of the things that LEAD them into actually accepting themselves because they start to define it and know what it is -- instead of struggling with the unknown that many times for many scares them into burying something they don't understand.

Don't mistake forcing to be a negative thing -- its not all the time and sometimes its needed. So many people forget what slavery is and most times until you experience it you really won't and don't get what it is. So people are afraid of the concept of "force" being applied. Sometimes people need a strong kick in the ass to recognize something about themselves they have been NEEDING, and yes in this dynamic it IS the forcing of slavery to recognize the reactions a woman is having is that of slave.

If my former Master hadn't forced upon me the mastery he realized i needed before i realized i needed it, i would have NEVER accepted the part of me that had been indirectly seeking and demanding from Men who were responding TO ME, not me responding to them. ANd i would still be on the path i was back when i thought i was happy having Men play attendance on me and give me my every desire.

angel


< Message edited by barelynangel -- 5/3/2009 2:03:07 PM >

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RE: Slavery-consent or accepted. - 5/3/2009 2:01:54 PM   
SlyStone


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Please correct me if I am wrong.


You are not wrong, to me slavery means only one thing. I am not black so I don't speak from any meaningful context, and I only know what I read as so far as modern day slavery, it is just something that for me, I know to be true.

Look, every day people will state that they are slaves to love or slaves to sensation or slaves to their boss or slaves to the grind or slaves to drugs or slaves to whatever the fuck it is that causes them to feel out of control and or forced.

I don't take any of that literally, nor am I in any way offended by it, what they mean is that they feel unable to resist either their emotions or their desires or their simple need to make a living and pay the bills. In this respect, we are all slaves to something for sure.


But BDSM is a little different because the act of submission does somewhat mirror the act of being enslaved. So it is much more complicated using the terms here then it is in the above examples. At least it is for me. When someone uses the term slave in BDSM, they may in fact mean that they truly identify as such.

When a person or a group adopt a commonly defined word and attempt to redefine it, there is always going to be confusion, even by the individuals or group themselves.


Lally2
agreed, but adaption of a defined state becomes an adoption of a real state.

I will have to think about that and get back to you :)


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RE: Slavery-consent or accepted. - 5/3/2009 2:17:07 PM   
gumshoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Do you think that slavery is consensual*?
Or do you think that slavery is accepted?
 
Please notice the difference in the two definitions and understand I am talking about the choice of being a slave.  Not the 'loss of consent' once you are in a relationship, or tpe, or authority transfer.
 



Okay so we are not talking about involuntary-servitude, where people are abducted and forced into servitude against their will.

So what we're really discussing is voluntarily-servitude. Calling it 'slavery' maybe sexy, but it's also somewhat confusing and misleading. This is a word not meaning the same thing for all concerned. Everyone sings from a different hymn sheet.

My hypotheses is that someone must first accept their submissive nature to be able to consent to submit the right Dom/me.

Consent is impossible without prior self-acceptance. How can someone consent to something they are uncomfortable with.

Supporting facts for this hypotheses are the numerous posts bemoaning the wannabe subs disappearing just before the first real-life, face to face meeting.





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RE: Slavery-consent or accepted. - 5/3/2009 2:52:49 PM   
marie2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Choice. You always have options, risks and rewards (there's a nice little quippy statement for those who appreciate that sort of thing :-) ).


Clever.

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RE: Slavery-consent or accepted. - 5/3/2009 3:11:28 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Choice. You always have options, risks and rewards (there's a nice little quippy statement for those who appreciate that sort of thing :-) ).


Clever.


Just running 'round doing whatever I can do to get a spot of your attention, Marie.......

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RE: Slavery-consent or accepted. - 5/3/2009 4:01:43 PM   
chamberqueen


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From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		I agree with the idea that it is a combination of acceptance of yourself as being in that role and consent given to another to treat you that way.  Many who consider themselves slaves are richly rewarded with appreciation, care and guidance, and true fulfillment if they are in an active relationship.  Most that I have talked with could not serve just anyone, and don't serve only for the privilege of doing so, but with the right partner they flourish.  They have given that special person consent to keep them as a slave, and have thus consented to living the role that they feel is the true core of them.

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RE: Slavery-consent or accepted. - 5/3/2009 4:04:06 PM   
MsDDom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

agreed, but adaption of a defined state becomes an adoption of a real state.


i agree with this...

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

But BDSM is a little different because the act of submission does somewhat mirror the act of being enslaved. So it is much more complicated using the terms here then it is in the above examples. At least it is for me. When someone uses the term slave in BDSM, they may in fact mean that they truly identify as such.



...and while submission mirrors "enslavement", it is more accepting to hear it on "this side of the fence" than the other, would you agree? or would u say that u dont like the word slave at all...no matter the context?

from a racial stand point, it is more "consensual and accepting" (for some, NOT for all) for the act of being or having the state of mind (slave) w/in the bdsm realm.


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RE: Slavery-consent or accepted. - 5/3/2009 4:24:59 PM   
silkncarol


Posts: 318
Status: offline 		I believe it is both consensual and accepted..... You consent by entering into a dynamic with someone..either D/s or M/s and by staying in the relationship you've accepted the situation. 

In my past i entered a contracted D/s relationship......as time passed and our relationship deeped it evolved into a M/s dynamic.  I'm not sure where along the way it happened...he didn't wrestle or demand anything from me...i just realized one day how much control he had, without my being aware it was happening.  Coming to the realization was a rather freeing moment in my life....i accepted what i had become. 
 


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RE: Slavery-consent or accepted. - 5/3/2009 4:58:56 PM   
Whiplashsmile4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

What the hell is "slavery" anyway?

In the old days slaves rebelled, killed their master, rose up and burned cities to the ground and all the rest.


This is not an accurate nor balanced historical statement.

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RE: Slavery-consent or accepted. - 5/3/2009 5:01:26 PM   
Whiplashsmile4


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RE: Slavery-consent or accepted. - 5/3/2009 5:43:46 PM   
MasterFireMaam


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Status: offline 		It most be both, consent coming first. We must consent to take the path we choose...after that, we are accepting what that actually means.

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RE: Slavery-consent or accepted. - 5/3/2009 5:52:55 PM   
Lashra


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quote:


These statements contradict each other. it can't be an UNnatural condition for ALL people and then be a natural condition for some. For many the forcing of the revealing of a slave is exactly what they need to accept and understand the instincts and reactions they have and they are then capable of identifying what these are


No they do not contradict one another. Some people have the personality and disposition to be a slave (regardless of gender) others like Myself would rather die than be a slave because we do not have the personality nor disposition for it. Its pretty simple.
Forcing someone someone to be a slave is a non consensual act which is a illegal(in most advanced cultures)and in my opinion should be punishable by death.

I know some people on this forum believe that a certain (insert gender or race here)should all be slaves, but educated persons know that is hogwash.

I stand by my statements.

~Lashra


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RE: Slavery-consent or accepted. - 5/3/2009 5:58:15 PM   
Joseff


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Status: offline 		I have always considered the defining difference between slavery and submission to be the concept of ownership. If you can consider yourself property, or if you can concieve that you could actually be someone's property, then you have the proper mindset, or personality, to be a slave. The converse would be true for the master. Someone long ago, it may have been St. Patrick, said, "No man is a slave who would be free." The Idea being that , although one can be captured, held, and forced to work, as long as they yearned for freedom, they were not truly a slave. There is some mechanism in the human psyche, probably for defense, that allows us to fall into a slave mindset. What that may have to do with WIITWD is this: That mechanism for some, is easier to access, and even attractive. Those people find comfort in being under controll of a Master. Of course, in our modern society, no one can legally own another person. Here is where the the final aspect comes in, consent. Even the person who thrives in an environment of slavery, knows on some level that they can always walk away, but they would never consider such a thing unless some circumstance forced that knowledge onto their conscience. 

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RE: Slavery-consent or accepted. - 5/3/2009 5:58:35 PM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

What the hell is "slavery" anyway?

In the old days slaves rebelled, killed their master, rose up and burned cities to the ground and all the rest.


This is not an accurate nor balanced historical statement.


I am speaking of the history of slavery on this planet where slaves might be physical property but sometimes little more. I my relationships, I want a LOT more than simply owning their body, I kind of want their mind to be at least vaguely interested in being with me out of their own free will.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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