RE: The millstone v bubble love debate.... (Full Version)

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allthatjaz -> RE: The millstone v bubble love debate.... (4/15/2009 10:07:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: InTonguesslut
Honestly i don't know whether it is just the way you phrase it but it sounds pretty unhealthy to me.


I felt that too, which is why I responded no, only a slightly different reason.  If a relationship is perfect - what then?  Where are the goals to achieve?  Perfection occurs at the end, not at the beginning or in the middle or anywhere in between.  And fragile?  Not one bit.  I would not wish to be in a relationship that was so fragile that it could be burst even by the softest feather or carried away on a current that was not of anyones choosing.
 
the.dark.


Oh Wow the.dark you have such a way with words and I can relate to what you said.

Although I am in love with S and he with me we both agree that we are frightened. Perhaps its because its still in the fledgling stages or that (like I have said before) tomorrow won't be as perfect as today but it does feel fragile and we both admit that it has made us feel vulnerable.
For these reasons I have to say that we are in a precious bubble but look forward to the day when we can both burst out of it together and embrace what we have with strength and determination.



NihilusZero -> RE: The millstone v bubble love debate.... (4/15/2009 10:11:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

I don't really want to derail the thread entirely, but the first thoughts that popped into my head reading this were:
  • Who decides what the "benefit for all involved" is?
  • What's the difference between someone being pushed into doing something that is "not what is desired" that's for the "benefit for all involved" and someone being passively coerced to do it (when perhaps they shouldn't) out of misplaced ideals?




Not who, what; truth.

The ability to be honest with one's self.

Kim 

We're going in circles. In terms of "love", "truth" is completely subjective (yet again). So there is no "what" without a "who".




LaTigresse -> RE: The millstone v bubble love debate.... (4/15/2009 10:23:39 AM)

I don't think about the specifics of love. It's not something I focus on.

When I tell someone I love them, I don't hold my breath, waiting to hear "I love you too" in return. The only important thing is that they know I love THEM.

That's what it is to me. Unselfish, totally accepting them as they are, wanting their happiness without a thought of my own. Love either exists or it doesn't. You either embrace it or not. You cannot miser it away or fear it, yet have it. It doesn't thrive within boundaries and limitations.

It flows through me as surely as the blood flowing through my veins. If I focus on it, I can feel the tingling warmth of it. It's part of me, part of the life force the flows through my whole life.

You either open yourself to it and embrace all that it entails, or you live without it.

To me it is never either a bubble or a millstone. It is life.



cpK69 -> RE: The millstone v bubble love debate.... (4/15/2009 10:24:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

We're going in circles. In terms of "love", "truth" is completely subjective (yet again). So there is no "what" without a "who".


Reality is subjective; the actions involved with truth are situational; truth, just is.

The truth that exists within a given situation, should be observed by all involved; otherwise, I would sugest loving thy self, and moving on.

Kim 



agirl -> RE: The millstone v bubble love debate.... (4/15/2009 10:51:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

These sort of discussions kind of irk me. "Love", by nature, is an entirely subjective entity. It "is" whatever one individual wishes it to be. There are no "greater" or "lesser" versions of it just as much as there is no "twue way" to conduct yourself in WIITWD.

I have refrained from using the term in relationships before for this very reason. It's, in essence, an empty, pretty word that, at best, is a shortcut of verbal explanation to someone once you've taken the time to describe to them exactly what the term means to you and how the person you're saying it to is applicable to it.

To fast-forward through the mini questionnaire, what "keeps something precious that way" is everything that goes on underneath every use of that superficially pretty word.



I agree and  think the same way.

I think it's a bit bonkers that hardly anyone is holding out for *deep affection* . NO, it seems only LOVE will do....lol

agirl





offeredup -> RE: The millstone v bubble love debate.... (4/15/2009 11:55:12 AM)

Thoughts of love and BDSM that come to mind:
-- The ancient Greeks split it into: altruistic love for our fellow human beings (Agape) and romantic, sexual, emotional, physical love (Eros). In relationships, these often overlap. Each kind can be expressed in endless variations.
--  As the title of Gloria Brame's popular book points out, our kinky relationships are, in themselves "Different Loving."
-- Kinky or not, we're all human.  We got needs -- air, water, food. And Prinsexx is right: everyone needs love. Abraham Maslow identified love and belonging as essential to our psychological health and self-realization. That includes all of us: See
http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/maslow.html
-- Turn the questions upside and see what happens: Do you seek a realtionship in which you are NOT loved and do NOT love? How would such a relationship work for you -- or your partner?
-- We're all mortal and nothing is permanent. If you love someone, or own someone or are owned by someone, it's not going to last forever, at least not in this universe. As poets say, that's why love and life are so precious.
-- i look at it as a paradox to be accepted. As a slave i commit to obey and submit unconditionally to my Lady, whether or not i feel loving, or She acts in loving towards me. As a human being -- and through personal experience -- i know that any relationship void of love in either direction has no legs.
-- But then, true love is unconditional too, just like my submission. It abides whether She's turned on or turned off, stong or vulnerable, energetic or laid back.  It judges not, but simply IS.
P.S: Sorry to be so clueless, but what does "WIITWD" mean?



RCdc -> RE: The millstone v bubble love debate.... (4/15/2009 12:14:46 PM)

WIITWD = .what.it.is.that.we.do.
 
the.dark.



InTonguesslut -> RE: The millstone v bubble love debate.... (4/15/2009 3:01:16 PM)

quote:

I think it's a bit bonkers that hardly anyone is holding out for *deep affection* . NO, it seems only LOVE will do....lol


Hell if i held out for either of those i think i'd be single forever. I'm just grateful someone might like me lol [;)]



SirJ40 -> RE: The millstone v bubble love debate.... (4/15/2009 3:08:18 PM)

Are you in a relationship where your love is like a precious bubble? - No, but it is like an enveloping warmth, it does feel comfortable and protective, and it does circle around us.
Are you in a relationship where love has become a millstone?  No, it's uplifting exciting
Do you seek a relationship which, in the best of all possible worlds, would be a love match? I did, and I'd given up on that when I found it... yes, we're a very good match.
Can love be everlasting?   I sincerely hope (and have faith that) it can last at least a lifetime.
And if it feels precious what keeps it that way?  The fact that we don't seem to have to expend any effort.. that we cannot believe that it is "us" who ended up together, and so happy.



Prinsexx -> RE: The millstone v bubble love debate.... (4/15/2009 4:55:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: InTonguesslut

quote:

Are you in a relationship where your love is like a precious bubble?

No.
Honestly i don't know whether it is just the way you phrase it but it sounds pretty unhealthy to me.


Well this might sound defensive but I don't feel a sense of preciousness is unhealthy. It's a feeling that's been developing within me recently. The preciousness of spring time, the preciousness of my children, the preciousness of a smile from a stranger. It's more of a realization that much of life is ephemeral and forever changing and perhaps forever fading.... and that what we do to stop the ephemera is to try to capture it by taking a photograph of the moment, or recording a song... capturing the perfect take.




Prinsexx -> RE: The millstone v bubble love debate.... (4/15/2009 5:02:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

These sort of discussions kind of irk me. "Love", by nature, is an entirely subjective entity. .


Yes and on a bad day I think love is simply an emotional luxury.
And on a good day I think of it as the glue that sticks the Universe together.




Prinsexx -> RE: The millstone v bubble love debate.... (4/15/2009 5:15:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: InTonguesslut

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: InTonguesslut

Most everything we discuss here is really a 'subjective entity' and 'whatever one individual wishes it to be'.

True. "Love", though, seems to be that one nifty exception that many people still treat as a universal constant. The discussions with some poster decrying his/her "twue way" irk me too. I get over it. [8D]





Oh i don't know, the sub vs slave debate, the limits vs no limits. all things people seem to think they have the universal answer to lol [;)]
 
This thread reminds me of a song called what is love anyway?


I love that song... 'cos it's about the paradox.
And far from putting up the idea that love was a bubble vs a millstone, I was, as usual stating an irony... the irony being that of course I know love is everything and anything we can think of along the continuum between a bubble and a millstone.
And here's another just-popped-into-my-head realisation... that I have often thought of the millstone type of love as being far heavier, more powerful and overbearing than the bubble. \meaning that in more than one marriage where we have stated our undying love for each other and signed a legal document in front of witnesses to state the equivalent, it is that very making it concrete that began to weigh me down.
The science of a bubble makes it one of the strongest objects... clear, transparent, light and empemeral...
oh this will turn into poetry if I am not careful... but that's the point.. it's subjective and a fleeting feeling... one minute a bubble the next minute a millstone.



DavanKael -> RE: The millstone v bubble love debate.... (4/15/2009 6:56:16 PM)

Are you in a relationship where your love is like a precious bubble? **A partnered relationship, no. 
Are you in a relationship where love has become a millstone? I have been.  **Alas, my marriage became that. 
Do you seek a relationship which, in the best of all possible worlds, would be a love match?
**It is the only acceptable option. 
Can love be everlasting?  **In-as-much as anything is. 
And if it feels precious what keeps it that way?  **For me, the fact that it is. 
   Davan



catize -> RE: The millstone v bubble love debate.... (4/15/2009 7:09:22 PM)

quote:

 These sort of discussions kind of irk me. "Love", by nature, is an entirely subjective entity. It "is" whatever one individual wishes it to be. There are no "greater" or "lesser" versions of it 


I think those who have “it” can’t envision a happy life without “it”.
I think those of us who don’t understand or want “it” feel “it” would needlessly complicate our lives.
I think those who repeatedly and unsuccessfully try to make “it” happen will rarely find contentment.



quote:

  I think it's a bit bonkers that hardly anyone is holding out for *deep affection*

Agirl, that made me laugh!  I am definitely in the deep affection camp!  There is much to be said for the solidity of mutual warmth and caring!



DesFIP -> RE: The millstone v bubble love debate.... (4/15/2009 7:21:39 PM)

I hope it isn't as fragile as a bubble. Because this relationship is rooted in real life and real life is full of stresses that would pop a bubble.

It certainly is not a millstone around my neck dragging me down.

Love is what allows me to trust him, to submit to him, to follow him. My love for him and his for me. If he didn't love me, then I would not believe that he would take such good care of me. Because you take better care of people the more you care about them.

I'll buy gloves for homeless in winter, but I won't make them chicken soup and tuck them into bed. People I love get everything I can give them. And the same in return from those who love me, who are good at loving.

Unfortunately many people are afraid of love, afraid of the vulnerability that comes when you love someone. I'm sorry for them, but I won't enter into a relationship with them.



catize -> RE: The millstone v bubble love debate.... (4/15/2009 8:52:44 PM)

quote:

 Unfortunately many people are afraid of love, afraid of the vulnerability that comes when you love someone. I'm sorry for them, 


Since we are quoting songs in this thread, I will hum a few bars of “Do not cry for me, Arrrrr-gent-eeeeee-na”  [:D]
Although it is possible that fear of vulnerability is at the root; I’m not sure I’d agree.  S. and I have had numerous conversations on the topic of love.  We have concluded that we just do not have the capacity for romantic love.  We don’t feel that our lives are lacking.  We have friends, we have warmth. Our relationship (and mine with R. as well) has lasted longer and is more comforting and comfortable than we have ever experienced with those we ‘tried’ to love in the past.
When I see couples who are very much in love, I am happy for them.  However, that doesn’t make me envious; it doesn’t engender a need to have the same thing. 
Please take this as gently as I intend it; save your pity.  It is not necessary.



MissEnchanted -> RE: The millstone v bubble love debate.... (4/15/2009 10:08:05 PM)

Darcynthedark wrote 'I find it interesting that people are trying to discuss the concept of love with someone whose name could be interpreted as a rejectionoflove' [:D]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

good point!



Missokyst -> RE: The millstone v bubble love debate.... (4/16/2009 5:16:55 AM)

I don't love easily.  Even when I was younger I would watch my friends and acquaintences fall in and out of love, feel blissful and devastated, joy and betrayal, one right ater the next.  Many would be in love with someone else before they even abandoned the one they were with.
I never understood that.
I have felt lust, friendship, compatibility, and companionship for the men who have spent some time in my life.  But love?  Only twice.
So no, for me love is not perfect.  Love is accepting that it is not perfect.  Love goes beyond the blissful and is stronger than the fragile.  Love is everlasting and not insolated.  I have felt it twice and I still feel it for those men, both of them.  Love has room for more because it accepts.  And on this I do not mean sexually, I mean over all.  Regardless of that love, I am still the monogamous person I was meant to be.  Love or not, I can move on to feel...
... lust, friendship, compatibility and perhaps even feel love for yet one more.
But those two?  At least for me that is eternal.
Kyst



allthatjaz -> RE: The millstone v bubble love debate.... (4/16/2009 7:00:10 AM)

Actually love can be anything so long as thats what you feel it is.
Love can feel fragile but thats not to say its not true love.
Love can be frightening but thats still not to say that its not true love.




cpK69 -> RE: The millstone v bubble love debate.... (4/16/2009 8:16:50 AM)

I’ve been thinking about my approach to this thread…. it sucked…. So I’d like to give it another shot, in an attempt to clarify my thoughts, so at the very least, they do not appear to be so; “One sizes fits all”.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

Are you in a relationship where your love is like a precious bubble?


I am hopeful that my days of feeling like that are over. I found that whenever that feeling has arisen, it was based on wants, I thought were needs, or thought could be met by someone incapable of doing so. Also, beliefs that were instilled in me, from observance of my (Grand)parents and others who were in relationship, were a major cause. It seems accurate to say, feeling like they were precious bubbles, is what made them millstones.

An example of this, would be my marriage with my ex-husband. I went into to the marriage believing that it was supposed to be, till death did us part. (Not that I was expecting it would work that way.) So, when I sensed that it was falling apart, I was convinced it was my responsibility to hold it together. The results were, us hating each other, which in turn, meant hating ourselves. It wasn’t for a long time, that I realized, “till death do us part”, didn’t mean his, or mine; it was referring to the marriage, or perhaps better stated, merger.

Back then, I didn’t know me.

quote:

Do you seek a relationship which, in the best of all possible worlds, would be a love match?

Yes, of course I seek a relationship that I would consider to be a love match, for me. I also understand, in order to do that, I must be willing to look at myself honestly, so that I understand what my needs and capabilities are, as well as looking at Sir/any prospect, in a similar manner, to know if I can help meet his needs, and if he is able/willing to help me with mine. If I wasn’t doing that… (see above)

quote:

Can love be everlasting?

I tend to be a little (okay, largely) cut and dry on the subject, due to its delicate nature, but, I don’t think it really expresses the feelings involved with the concept. I don’t believe my latest attempt in expressing myself on the matter, was very successful, either.

To me, the relationships described in the OP, though not excluded to, can be depicted as, when 6 and 9 meet, as in Yin and Yang, and in joining together, forming an 8 (makes me think, infinity (turned on end). It happens when compatability, and complamentary traits, between two people, join together. It falls apart, when willingness to participate has stopped for one, or both partys; and happens for various reasons. Often leaving behind, hurt feelings.

I can honestly say I love my ex-husband more, now, than I did when we were together. It lives in me now, and it will continue to live, when I’m gone, in those I am able to pass the knowledge I gained from it, on to.

quote:

And if it feels precious what keeps it that way?

I have been thinking more, on the idea of it feeling ‘precious’.

Hope is a little spark of life; try to keep it, and it will grow stagnant; try to put too much upon it, and it becomes smothered; set it free, so that it may seek truth; and it grows a life of its own. Life is precious.

My best,

Kim



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