Can anyone explain this to me? (Full Version)

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MasterGrim -> Can anyone explain this to me? (4/5/2009 1:40:35 AM)

I feel so dumb for having to ask this but.....

How can a person gender male at birth who has had an operation to be reassigned as a gender female be considered a lesbian?

Wouldn't they be a hetrosexual who went a LOOOOONG way to find women?

Also, wouldn't this be underhanded and covert? To pass themselves off as a woman when they are actually post-op Trans-gendered?

I have found at least 1 profile where I know this to be true since when I joined they were listing themselves as a Pre-Op male. and you can tell from the photos their birth gender was male.
They have since changed it to female. (and from sub to dom/me as well [8D])



MasterRaid -> RE: Can anyone explain this to me? (4/5/2009 1:44:53 AM)

Well if someone has gone to the trouble to surgically alter themselves from male to female I would think they would have the right to call themself a female. That is all that matters is how someone views themself. One's own view, if I knew of the operation I would call them a Post-Op or transgendered. But they can call themself whatever they wish it is their right. As for the sudden change from sub to Dom.....(shrugs)



MasterGrim -> RE: Can anyone explain this to me? (4/5/2009 1:52:11 AM)

Agreed, If they went through all the trouble, then yes I suppose they could label themselves and since they are only going to be dealing with women (lesbians), who would be the wiser after the scars and such were healed.

When I saw the person while browsing, the thought hit me of the ultimate drunken horror story which we all have heard of but thankfully I have never been in a position to experience:

"Wow she is a real hottie!!" then the next morning you roll over to relive a few choice moments from the night before only to find out..... She is/was actually a guy. (only in this case the shoe is on the female's foot)

Thank you for clearing it up for me.



SteelofUtah -> RE: Can anyone explain this to me? (4/5/2009 1:57:26 AM)

As far as I am concerned if someone went through the MASIVE operation, The Painful Recovery, The PAINFUL Dialation, The Massive Chemical Hormonal Change, The Scrutiny of people who think they are "Freaks" the MAJOR cost expense, then I believe they have every right to decide WHEN they offer this kind of information.

Gender Reassignment is about that GENDER. Not Sex and Not Physical Attraction it is about a Girl being born in a Mans body and looking down and seeing something that they should not have and wanting to correct the obvious mistake as they see it. God Be Damned if the look inside themselves and see a Woman who am I to disagree.

Now once a Person determines their Gender now they determine thier sexual orientation and so just because someone was born a Male but thinks they should be a female and is still attracted to women does not make it easier to just remain a male.

Sex is More than Gender and Gender is more than Sexual Attraction.

If I were you I would stop seeing it as being Griffted and see it as someone who is trying to find a way to be who they are and address a world that RARELY understands anything different than they are.

Steel



MasterGrim -> RE: Can anyone explain this to me? (4/5/2009 2:12:27 AM)

I was only wondering,

I have a bad tendancy for looking at it from the other persons perspective.
I personally hold to the thought of "to each their own" and leave it at that.
but I know I wouldn't want to be in the situation of the person who "believed the illusion" only to find out the truth after the fact.

Society in general has a bad habit of fearing,ridiculing,chastising, and sometimes harming person's who are deemed different from the "norm". (no I will not get into a debate about what the "norm" is - there is no set definition nor should there be, that is for the individual to decide)

I meant no offense to anyone, I was only seeking an answer to the question.

As I said in my original post... "I feel dumb for even asking"

Thank you for your replies.



SteelofUtah -> RE: Can anyone explain this to me? (4/5/2009 2:20:27 AM)

Please do not misunderstand.

I was not berating you for your question. I think your ability to ask a question that will certainly paint you in an immediate defensive light is commendable. you will only know if you ask.

My Answer was simply to illustrate the entirity of how I felt on the subject.

By the way I know many Dom's who are into Transvestites or Transexuals, there is nothing wrong with it. I cannot say I am into or against it because as far as I am concerned if you looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then who cares .....By the way Duck means a woman, if you are dating ducks more power to ya.

Steel



eyesopened -> RE: Can anyone explain this to me? (4/5/2009 3:18:10 AM)

This is not an attempt to hijack a thread but I could not help to notice that this is a prime example of why a ban on same-sex marriage is idiotic.  It's all well and good to define marriage as the legal union between a male and a female but in out current society how exactly do we define male and female?  If a male is gender reassigned to female, she would still have a Y chromosone and then as the transgendered female should be able to marry a genetic female, right?  Oh, she identifies as female and then can't marry a female?  So prior to gender reassignment she could have married but not after?  Would be a whole lot easier just to define marriage and the legal union between human beings who love each other.



MasterGrim -> RE: Can anyone explain this to me? (4/5/2009 3:45:44 AM)

Go ahead and hi-jack it...
My question was answered and with each new post it is being answered even more...

I am always in search of new knowledge and rarely have much chance of gaining any useful information from the bass-ackward people that seem to populate my area. 

Any hint of BDSM oriented thought/activity is shunned, and I have very few R/T connections in the "underground" of this area. If it were not for CM and sites like it, I would have been locked away as a 'perv' years ago in a mental ward or worse.

What we call pleasure, the neighbors call domestic violence.  But they don't seem to mind O/our 'girl' or my wife running in their skimpies. (Well, the men don't. I can't speak for their S.O.s)
Let's just say W/we are not the most popular people in the neighborhood.


*And to answer your question eyesopened... That would make too much sense and make things too easy. Plus the people who are the most against it would have to use their tiny brains to find someone/something else to whine and gripe about*



Mercnbeth -> RE: Can anyone explain this to me? (4/5/2009 7:22:32 AM)

quote:

How can a person gender male at birth who has had an operation to be reassigned as a gender female be considered a lesbian?


To understand first you have to agree or at least appreciate that sexual preference and biological gender are independent of each other. A person's biological gender is controlled by physical factors out of their control at birth. A persons sexuality does not have a requirement of meeting the expectations of becoming socially 'normal' based upon the visual gender characteristics.

Without getting into the debate of whether homosexuality is nature versus nurture; your question can be answered by saying a man can love a woman but desire the physical interaction of that love be taken in the form of a lesbian relationship better enjoyed as a woman. Basically, they feel they were born as the wrong gender; but as that gender their sexual desires are homosexual. Yeah, I know - it can make your head hurt thinking about it.

We are both big fans of the LOGO Channel. They had a documentary series on this subject where the people who you describe referred to themselves as 'Gender Queer'. Some went through the sex change operation, changing their secondary sexual characteristics to the opposite gender, but coming through the operation they hoped to live their lives as a homosexual; Male to female seeking female sexual partners, female to male seeking male sexual partners. An interesting, and a bit sad result for one person going through the sex change procedure within a long term lesbian relationship, was that her partner had no desire to be with a man. As the initial hormone therapy  was taking affect and her partner was looking more and more a man, she was no longer attracted to her. After the operation, they broke up.

Some don't go as far as getting a sex change operation, but instead simply live as their non birth gender.

You can search the LOGO link I provided and see some of the episode clips.



chiaThePet -> RE: Can anyone explain this to me? (4/5/2009 7:34:23 AM)


I said THESPIAN.

And I'm working on the uni brow.

chia* (the pet)



DesFIP -> RE: Can anyone explain this to me? (4/5/2009 8:22:32 AM)

I'm certain that this person would offer up the information of being a post-op trans if it's true at the appropriate time. Which they don't feel should be in their profile.

Judging by a photo? Don't do that. Just because you think this woman was obviously a male doesn't make it so. She may just have very strong features.

And I doubt there was a sudden change from sub to domme. Probably she had been switching and after reflection finally decided that for now she didn't want to sub anymore. Which she has every right to do. Lots of people don't update their profiles unless they are seeking. So sudden to you could actually mean over a period of years.



stella41b -> RE: Can anyone explain this to me? (4/5/2009 9:11:09 AM)

I'm one of the people spoken about in the OP.

Yes I was considered male at birth, but that's only because I was born with a penis. Boys have willies, girls don't right..?

Usually yes, but not always. Gender is encoded in the genes, and when you get someone like me, of which there are only about 500 or so cases in the UK with a population now of around 74 million, that gender changes due to what is known as mosaicism.. I have secondary female physical characteristics, bone structure, pelvic shape, my body naturally produces oestrogen, less and less testosterone..I'm mid transition and not taking anti-hormones because they're not considered necessary. I have two overlapping DNA patterns from which I have acquired a new blood group. My shift happened during puberty.

I have lived through the choice of remaining socially acceptable as male and slowly killing myself, causing a lot of pain and heartache to the people around me, or facing up to my issues and becoming myself and living, with this learning to live and function normally in society as a female.

The illusion in my part is that I am male. I'm not and never was male, and it wasn't through a lack of effort either. Let us not forget at the peak of my career in theatre I had a better and much easier life than almost any guy you can think of. But you know people didn't know about the psychological problems, the bulimia, the suicidal thoughts, the attempts, the constant deep depression, the inability to feel love and happiness. Or the inability to function on the most basic level as a male. Yes, I was faking it. And lying. And cheating, and deceiving everyone, and pretending. All this just for social acceptance?

The truth is that I am a female with a dick, and yes such people exist. No point in wanting children, I will never even menstruate, no PMS, the only bit I will get is the menopause. I'm 42 and can only imagine what it feels like to be loved, emotionally, physically, psychologically, because I don't have a vagina, I just have a dick, and it's that few inches of flesh which has caused so much pain, anguish, depression and distress in my life. The world cannot accept a woman with a dick.

I keep the label transgendered because I am honest. I am and always will be a transgendered female, and have been ever since I was born. I will always run into people who will disagree with this, who will regard it as my choice, who will think of me as someone deluded, deceptive, dishonest, I will always have people prepared to throw my past in my face, I will always have people who stare at me, point fingers, who address me inappropriately, who will regard me as less than human. I will always be the freak of the human race.

But I accept this. I took the chance to face up to who I really am, and when faced with the choice of deceiving everyone else and keeping what I had I walked away to be myself, openly, honestly, I know myself, I know who I am and who I am not, and I have the chance to feel happiness and love, and this to me is worth me sacrificing the whole world, just to be myself and to be the whole, happy, complete Stella and to share this with the people who accept me.

I am myself, there is no deception, I am true to myself and not afraid of that. If I had the chance I would do what I did all over again.

Being myself is intrinsic to living. I am paying that price. I don't have any regrets.



DavanKael -> RE: Can anyone explain this to me? (4/5/2009 9:39:05 AM)

Stella, I appreciated reading your sharing and I honor your choices. 
OP, I would think a person honest to convey their full story.  Whether or not a potential partner is accepting, well, that is a part of it all.  We all have aspects of self that we are unsure others will accept. 
Sexuality is a complicated thing and, as has been pointed out, sex and orientation are different.  Numerous transgendered people I know are not straight. 
I think it also warrants saying that a lot of times, having the operation to make the body look more like what's in the mind doesn't still the disquiet the person has about self-identity.  Extracting 'nurture' facets and taking only 'nature' into consideration, I kinda think that identification of strictly male or female may be rather confining for some.  Study after study actually shows people are happier the more androgynously they interrelate. 
Each unto their own, 
  Davan



Domin8tingUrDrmz -> RE: Can anyone explain this to me? (4/5/2009 9:44:12 AM)

Where is the hug emoticon?  *Gives Stella a big hug*  I think you are an amazing woman.



DesFIP -> RE: Can anyone explain this to me? (4/5/2009 9:53:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterGrim
But they don't seem to mind O/our 'girl' or my wife running in their skimpies. (Well, the men don't. I can't speak for their S.O.s)


And I wouldn't appreciate your wife and third going around inappropriately dressed, or undressed, in front of my kids either.

No wonder you aren't the most favorite neighbors.



antipode -> RE: Can anyone explain this to me? (4/5/2009 10:05:30 AM)

quote:

underhanded and covert? To pass themselves off as a woman when they are actually post-op Trans-gendered



It is not a dumb question, but I think you need to understand that people who decide to have gender reassignment surgery have gender identity problems to begin with, in the vast majority of cases. You see them crop up all over, and making every effort to not be in "their" category, the TS/TV category. In general, apart from us "normals" (suuuuuuuuuuure.... [;)]) lots of people with psychological and relationship problems are all over the dating boards - it is just that those who have actually tried to change themselves surgically kind of stand out from the crowd.

I mostly ignore them, occasionally I'll send them an email, when I think they're labouring rather extremely under the misapprehension that a man looking for a woman will sit behind their laptop and go "well, I can't find any nice females this weekend, why not try a tranny for a change?".

Mostly, the transgenders who post as something other than TV/TS eventually find out they only hurt themselves. I feel sorry for them, more than anything else, as I am sure they thought they could have the surgery and go live as the gender they had themselves changed to, and live happily ever after. In fact there are severe limitations. BBC America has broadcast some interesting programs on gender reassignment, worth watching.



stella41b -> RE: Can anyone explain this to me? (4/5/2009 10:54:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

Mostly, the transgenders who post as something other than TV/TS eventually find out they only hurt themselves. I feel sorry for them, more than anything else, as I am sure they thought they could have the surgery and go live as the gender they had themselves changed to, and live happily ever after. In fact there are severe limitations. BBC America has broadcast some interesting programs on gender reassignment, worth watching.



Erm, when since was TS/TV a gender?

I'm a transgendered female but my gender actually IS female, I'm that gender today and have been all along and no amount of hormones, surgery and whatever is going to change that fact. You don't automatically 'become' a woman when you get your dick chopped up and reconstructed as a vagina.

The misapprehension is actually that of other people who find it hard to accept. It's their issue, it doesn't affect me, it doesn't hurt me that they have this issue, but be sure when they start taking their issue and instead of owning it shoving it in my face they get put straight.

And I can vector this with all the guys who for some reason can't get a naturally born woman and feel that we transgendered females actually exist as available. F*ck that. If a natural born woman won't touch you with a bargepole be sure as hell I won't either. Nor am I into mercy fucks.

Okay, some people just don't get it because in their eyes I 'chose' to reject ownership of the mighty phallus to descend to the bottom of the societal pile but maybe that was just the myth and I chose to explode it for my own wellbeing.

But you know I don't have to be a supermodel to be socially accepted as a female, and I am, I live as a woman 24/7 and am accepted as such by those who know me, work with me, and have contact with me. On my medical records, in my passport and on my personal identification the gender is 'female', not TS/TV.

From my own experience the only severe limitations are in the minds of some people in society. Everyone else is quite okay with it.



Raiikun -> RE: Can anyone explain this to me? (4/5/2009 11:32:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterGrim
*And to answer your question eyesopened... That would make too much sense and make things too easy. Plus the people who are the most against it would have to use their tiny brains to find someone/something else to whine and gripe about*


Statements like this bug me...mainly due to the intent of being insulting to anyone with a different viewpoint.

I don't want to derail the thread and start a "preaching" type of argument or anything, and I know there will be some people are going to jump and scream "bigot!" without actually seeing what I have to say (and if you are someone that *will* actually read with an open mind, that obviously doesn't apply to you hehe)...but I'm one who grew up being taught homosexuality was a sin...and in my own studying, exploration, etc, I see legitimate reason for the belief.  But not being exactly innocent of sin myself, I certainly can't judge another, thus why I have quite a few homosexual friends, some very close.

Now as to homosexual marriage...I'm against "legalizing" that too, for the simple reason that I don't like the idea of a government saying a sin is acceptable.  I don't try to get the government to voice approval of my sins for the same reason.  But!  Being a logical, intelligent person open to compromise, I'm quite aware that homosexuals anywhere can already get married anytime they want according to their beliefs; they just lack the government stamp of approval. 

So, for that and other reasons, I think government should stay out of marriage altogether. 
There's no benefits of marriage that can't be legislated through other means, and if government had nothing to do with marriage, anyone could marry whoever the hell they want anytime they want, in accordance to their own beliefs, and noone would have reason to be offended; hopefully even the "tiny brained" people. :p

So, I guess that derail was just to point out a pet peeve of mine and say that not everyone who shares a different point of view does so because of being a "tiny brained person looking for something to whine about." =)



susie -> RE: Can anyone explain this to me? (4/5/2009 11:50:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


So, I guess that derail was just to point out a pet peeve of mine and say that not everyone who shares a different point of view does so because of being a "tiny brained person looking for something to whine about." =)


Tiny brained is a whole lot different to being ignorant of the facts being discussed.



Raiikun -> RE: Can anyone explain this to me? (4/5/2009 3:02:33 PM)

Maybe it's the just waking up (kinda up all night this weekend) but totally not seeing what you're getting at hehe



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