stubbon submissive? edit

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ILoveBaldMen -> stubbon submissive? edit (3/27/2009 3:21:23 PM)
Can a individual be stubborn and submissive? Do you think an individual can become stubborn because they are submissive? The reason why I ask this is that as a child when I made a decision, I was always maneuvered to change my stance and following the decisions that were made by my parents (beyond the norm). As I grew older, I became very frustrated by the fact that I was easily manipulated into changing my decisions. Even decisions that I felt were steadfast; I would easily be steered into another direction by parents, friends and family and I felt helpless to prevent it. I felt like the only way I could get from point A to B without being run over was to become stubborn (this was done unintentionally at first) . For me it was a protection of sorts, in that I wanted to make a decision without feeling like I was being pushed around. I wanted to feel like I could make a decision for myself, by myself.

Lockit -> RE: stubbon submissive? (3/27/2009 3:25:05 PM)
I think anyone can be stubborn. As for being stubborn because they are submissive... in my experience those that were really stubborn in not a good way, were wounded from life and people and held on to their stubborness as a defense... basically passive aggressively... I am not sure.. but some may have resented being submissive because they felt that is what caused them trouble. Interesting questions. I will have to think more on it! lol

littlekitten1 -> RE: stubbon submissive? (3/27/2009 3:25:16 PM)
I'm stubborn....

antipode -> RE: stubbon submissive? (3/27/2009 3:36:27 PM)
quote: Can a individual be stubborn and submissive? Do you think an individual can become stubborn because they are submissive? a) sure - why not? b) sure - why not?

LovingMistress45 -> RE: stubbon submissive? (3/27/2009 3:36:58 PM)
Anyone can be stubborn, including submissives. I don't think submissiveness causes anyone to be stubborn.

SassySarijane -> RE: stubbon submissive? (3/27/2009 4:51:56 PM)
Being submissive doesn't cause stubborness. If that were so everyone who is stubborn would also be submissive. Can submissives be stubborn? Yes. raises hand I'm very stubborn and am also a submissive, plus a lot of other things. It's a people thing not a bdsm thing.

kdsub -> RE: stubbon submissive? (3/27/2009 8:05:21 PM)
To me it depends where the stubborness is displayed. I think for a healthy relationship there must be an agreement between a dominant and submissive that outlines each partners responsibilities. Stubborness... or any other personal trait outside that agreement that offends either party will need to be renegotiated... anything within it should be spelled out from the beginning .. then if the agreement is broken there will be no doubt who is at fault. Butch

Prinsexx -> RE: stubbon submissive? edit (3/28/2009 3:28:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ILoveBaldMen Can a individual be stubborn and submissive? Do you think an individual can become stubborn because they are submissive? The reason why I ask this is that as a child when I made a decision, I was always maneuvered to change my stance and following the decisions that were made by my parents (beyond the norm). As I grew older, I became very frustrated by the fact that I was easily manipulated into changing my decisions. Even decisions that I felt were steadfast; I would easily be steered into another direction by parents, friends and family and I felt helpless to prevent it. I felt like the only way I could get from point A to B without being run over was to become stubborn (this was done unintentionally at first) . For me it was a protection of sorts, in that I wanted to make a decision without feeling like I was being pushed around. I wanted to feel like I could make a decision for myself, by myself. Yes a person can be stubborn and submissive.. and I know this from my personal experience. I am a very opinionated person and assertive. I have had to be. It was and is a survival mechanism. I've tried my best for my assertiveness to be backed up in an informed way by education and experiences. Nevertheless I experience my own stubbornness as quite contray to my submissiveness. I remember occasions when my stubbornness had gone very deep into my body and even dragging me downstairs and tieing me up for a few hours wouldn't have me change an attitude. My stubborness tends to disappear through pain.. but I'm also able to enjoy the fights and the pain to such an extent that that itself becomes a kind of fuck-you stubborness as well. But who wants a door mat? I've often thought bring it on.. something to cut your dominant teeth on...nice to have met my match though.

agirl -> RE: stubbon submissive? edit (3/28/2009 8:39:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ILoveBaldMen Can a individual be stubborn and submissive? Do you think an individual can become stubborn because they are submissive? The reason why I ask this is that as a child when I made a decision, I was always maneuvered to change my stance and following the decisions that were made by my parents (beyond the norm). As I grew older, I became very frustrated by the fact that I was easily manipulated into changing my decisions. Even decisions that I felt were steadfast; I would easily be steered into another direction by parents, friends and family and I felt helpless to prevent it. I felt like the only way I could get from point A to B without being run over was to become stubborn (this was done unintentionally at first) . For me it was a protection of sorts, in that I wanted to make a decision without feeling like I was being pushed around. I wanted to feel like I could make a decision for myself, by myself. I've been susceptible to manipulation by people close to me because I really am crap at confrontation. I don't even mean noisy , difficult confrontation. I just don't want to do it at all, at anytime. It wasn't/isn't anything to do with being submissive. My way of dealing with it as a youngster was just to nod in all the right places and then go ahead and do whatever I wanted. It's amazing what a sweet smile and a fairly agreeable nature can do. I developed a stubborn streak that really wasn't that helpful later on in life....lol Anyhow .....I dig my toes in in the wrong places sometimes, when it's not beneficial, there's nothing to gain and it doesn't help the situation....but on the otherhand , that stubbornness has been the very thing that has seen me through the most testing times. It doesn't matter a great deal if the person you're with understands the why's and wherefore's. agirl

SirRussellP -> RE: stubbon submissive? edit (3/28/2009 10:05:34 AM)
At first I thought this is really not very serious of a question but then as I was leaving I realized that it may be a key part of a submissive. Stubborn may well be what makes a submissive. Think about the strength it takes to be a real submissive. To crawl to make the Dominant happy, to endure pain to please the Dominant, hell just to serve in general the Dominant, to deal with those friends that tell you that you must be crazy to be like that. Can you picture any of this without a very strong will? I can't so hell yes I think the best submissives are pretty stubborn. Russell

agirl -> RE: stubbon submissive? edit (3/28/2009 10:36:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirRussellP At first I thought this is really not very serious of a question but then as I was leaving I realized that it may be a key part of a submissive. Stubborn may well be what makes a submissive. Think about the strength it takes to be a real submissive. To crawl to make the Dominant happy, to endure pain to please the Dominant, hell just to serve in general the Dominant, to deal with those friends that tell you that you must be crazy to be like that. Can you picture any of this without a very strong will? I can't so hell yes I think the best submissives are pretty stubborn. Russell I see where you're coming from with this .....but I probably wouldn't equate stubborn with those things necessarily. To crawl, to endure pain or to serve to please a dom, can be far removed from stubborness for many people. agirl

Lockit -> RE: stubbon submissive? edit (3/28/2009 10:42:45 AM)
Being stubborn can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how it is used. Some stubborn will keep you alive... strong... determined and some stubborn can keep you lacking in growth and ability to get along with others say. I see stubborn as a good thing until it is used in ways that aren't good for the person or those around them. So stubborn can be a heaven or a hell. lol

SirRussellP -> RE: stubbon submissive? edit (3/28/2009 10:49:54 AM)
agirl You may be right but I will need to think hard about it. If I am right it also proves sub strength of will.

ILoveBaldMen -> RE: stubbon submissive? edit (3/28/2009 1:48:59 PM)
thank you for all your answers. smile I tend to be quite stubborn, until I feel that the other person has earned my trust. (even then the stubbornness comes out here and there) It is use as a protection so that I don't submit fully to someone who does not deserve it (unconsciously). Which has served me quite well in the past. Yet, at the same time it can present a problem, because I might not act as submissively at first, as one might expect. My submissiveness tends to grow as the trust grows which takes time to cultivate. Also SirRussellP you bring up a good point that I never considered. I do believe that my stubbornness is what keeps me in a d/s relationship once it has a good foundation. It is what makes it so I don't walk away when I pushed by the dominant in an unexpected, vulnerable place that might other wise never go into/run away from.

IvyDarkbloom -> RE: stubbon submissive? edit (3/28/2009 3:00:10 PM)
Of course! In fact, sometimes subbies like to use stubborness and insubordinace as a way to push their Dommes and see just how harshly they'll be punished! ;)

kdsub -> RE: stubbon submissive? edit (3/28/2009 3:54:30 PM)
Just wondering do any of you think... right... enters the stubborn question. Is it wrong to be stubborn about something you are right about? Butch

beargonewild -> RE: stubbon submissive? edit (3/28/2009 4:11:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ILoveBaldMen Can a individual be stubborn and submissive? Why not? One trait does not preclude the other.

MsDDom -> RE: stubbon submissive? edit (3/28/2009 5:48:19 PM)
yes and i have encountered them and their tactics... a child can be stubborn, yet is submissive to their parent...so, being stubborn doesnt necessarily affect their ability to submit. (it may be a challenge for their Dom/me tho')

Vanityfull -> RE: stubbon submissive? edit (3/28/2009 6:03:33 PM)
i am very stubborn, indapendant confident and strong defender of my views at best, a complete dick at worst. i acsept that part of my personality and find it refreshing when someone makes me eat my words, a dose of humility is good everynow and again. it transfers to bdsm play as a sub i get off on humilation, i like when i can pull my head out of my ass and liston to someone else, my personal faults with being stubborn are actually what i enjoy about the release of controll.

asianchloe -> RE: stubbon submissive? (3/29/2009 1:32:21 AM)
Sure, it's a "people thing" but in the context of a bdsm D/s relationship, I find that a stubborn sub might still think of him/herself as a submissive but for my tastes, would not be a good sub. I think of stubbornness as an unwillingness to yield. In some contexts, such as achieving difficult, far-reaching goals, being stubborn (determined) is a good quality. In other cases, this adherence is obstinacy is a negative quality. In the context of any D/s relationship that I personally am involved in, an unwillingness to yield makes someone NOT submissive. (Of course, I observe hard limits and I am only speaking of things previously agreed to, either explicitly or assumed from many interactions.) Can you give some examples of when you are stubborn but still submissive? Or do you mean you are the submissive in your D/s relationship and stubborn in general personality but not to your dominant? quote: ORIGINAL: SassySarijane Can submissives be stubborn? Yes. raises hand I'm very stubborn and am also a submissive, plus a lot of other things. It's a people thing not a bdsm thing.

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