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More of your tax dollars at work - 3/24/2009 10:06:39 AM

rulemylife

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ABC News: JPMorgan Chase To Spend Millions on New Jets and Luxury ...

JPMorgan Chase To Spend Millions on New Jets and Luxury Airport Hangar

Outraged Critics Decry the Proposal, Call For Bank To Abandon Plans

By BRIAN ROSS, JOSEPH RHEE and MEGAN CHUCHMACH
March 23, 2009

Embattled bank JPMorgan Chase, the recipient of $25 billion in TARP funds, is going ahead with a $138 million plan to buy two new luxury corporate jets and build "the premier corporate aircraft hangar on the eastern seaboard" to house them, ABC News has learned.

The financial giant's upgrade includes nearly $120 million for two Gulfstream 650 planes and $18 million for a lavish renovation of a hangar at the Westchester Airport outside New York City.

A public hearing will be held by Westchester County officials tonight regarding JPMorgan's request for new hangar space.

According to JPMorgan Chase architects, the new hangar will be built with reclaimed wood, quarry tile and even a "vegetated roof garden."

The Gulfstream 650's are described by the manufacturer as the "fastest," "widest" and "most comfortable" private jet ever with superior cabin amenities, an optional stateroom, and 12 interior designs to choose from.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 3/24/2009 10:10:06 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: More of your tax dollars at work - 3/24/2009 10:33:11 AM

Kirata

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Obama has said that spending is what "stimulating the economy" means, the government shovels out cash exhorting, "Go forth and stimulate!" and then every time somebody actually spends a dime of it y'all scream bloody fucking murder. When did the aircraft and construction industries stop being part of the economy?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/24/2009 10:44:48 AM >

(in reply to rulemylife)

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RE: More of your tax dollars at work - 3/24/2009 10:59:00 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Obama has said that spending is what "stimulating the economy" means, the government shovels out cash exhorting, "Go forth and stimulate!" and then every time somebody actually spends a dime of it y'all scream bloody fucking murder. When did the aircraft and construction industries stop being part of the economy?

K.

Well that's one way to look at it.

Another is that if a company is in such deep financial trouble they need our tax dollars to help them survive they should be cutting costs to the bone.

A roof top vegetated garden?

Quarry tile in an airplane hangar?

Not to mention the aircraft purchases.

Myself, if I'm in such dire financial straits that I need someone to loan me money to make ends meet I don't go out the next day and buy a new car.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 3/24/2009 11:03:09 AM >

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RE: More of your tax dollars at work - 3/24/2009 11:34:06 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Another is that if a company is in such deep financial trouble they need our tax dollars to help them survive they should be cutting costs to the bone.

And then what? Sit around hoping better times will come?

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Myself, if I'm in such dire financial straits that I need someone to loan me money to make ends meet I don't go out the next day and buy a new car.

Well nevertheless, as I understand the logic here, the rationale for relieving the heavy debt loads that are bogging things down is to get money flowing again, so we can get the economy moving. When orders for planes drop, people in the aircraft industry get laid off. When nobody is building, people in the construction industry get laid off. And things just keep getting worse.

I'm not saying it's the right course of action. But that argument is with the proverbial "powers that be". Business is just following the programme.

K.

(in reply to rulemylife)

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RE: More of your tax dollars at work - 3/24/2009 12:12:32 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Another is that if a company is in such deep financial trouble they need our tax dollars to help them survive they should be cutting costs to the bone.

And then what? Sit around hoping better times will come?

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Myself, if I'm in such dire financial straits that I need someone to loan me money to make ends meet I don't go out the next day and buy a new car.

Well nevertheless, as I understand the logic here, the rationale for relieving the heavy debt loads that are bogging things down is to get money flowing again, so we can get the economy moving. When orders for planes drop, people in the aircraft industry get laid off. When nobody is building, people in the construction industry get laid off. And things just keep getting worse.

I'm not saying it's the right course of action. But that argument is with the proverbial "powers that be". Business is just following the programme.

K.

I agree we need to get money flowing.

What I don't agree with is that the money flowing should be from companies that are being saved from bankruptcy by our tax dollars.

And to be spent in this way is just a slap in the face to everyone.

Roof gardens on a hangar? Quarry tile for the hangar floor?

We should applaud this extravagance with money that was meant to keep their company from bankruptcy?

(in reply to Kirata)

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RE: More of your tax dollars at work - 3/24/2009 1:53:04 PM

Kirata

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Well actually, I don't really know where the money they're spending is coming from. It may be that the improved look of their balance sheet allowed them to borrow to finance their plans. But in any case, they are able to move forward with them. Would you prefer they just sit quietly and count their chips? Or if not, what kind of spending to you think they might better engage in?

K.

(in reply to rulemylife)

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RE: More of your tax dollars at work - 3/24/2009 2:02:02 PM

HeavansKeeper

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Obama has said that spending is what "stimulating the economy" means, the government shovels out cash exhorting, "Go forth and stimulate!" and then every time somebody actually spends a dime of it y'all scream bloody fucking murder. When did the aircraft and construction industries stop being part of the economy?

K.

When banks who were given money to continue allowing college loans for students decided "Fuck it. Country's smart enough. Lets get some new fucking airplanes. First Class on Delta is for squares and hookers."

_____________________________

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RE: More of your tax dollars at work - 3/24/2009 2:19:25 PM

slvemike4u

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I don't know Kirata when TARP was proposed the need was stated to unfreeze credit. And restore liquidity to the market.These banks theoretically were supposed to take the money and distribute it in the form of loans....not buy corporate jets and build hangers for said jets.If I am mistaken about the purpose of TARP funds please feel free to correct me

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 3/24/2009 2:20:36 PM >

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

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RE: More of your tax dollars at work - 3/24/2009 2:20:47 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper

When banks who were given money to continue allowing college loans for students decided "Fuck it. Country's smart enough. Lets get some new fucking airplanes. First Class on Delta is for squares and hookers."

Was that why JPMorgan was given the money? Does JPMorgan fund student loans? Have they stopped funding them? Do you even know? Just asking.

By the way (from the original story link)...

Joseph Evangelisti, a spokesman for JPMorgan Chase, said no TARP money would be used to make any payments for new jets or jet hangar improvements.

And Westchester County is delighted to have the new construction...

Westchester County, NY has recommended that the bank – a "high quality corporate citizen" – be awarded the lease to the hangar when it becomes available in April 2010, in part, because of how much money it is dedicating for the "construction of a state of the art 'green building.'"

Just more greedy slobs and liars?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/24/2009 2:39:06 PM >

(in reply to HeavansKeeper)

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RE: More of your tax dollars at work - 3/24/2009 2:23:51 PM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper

When banks who were given money to continue allowing college loans for students decided "Fuck it. Country's smart enough. Lets get some new fucking airplanes. First Class on Delta is for squares and hookers."

Was that why JPMorgan was given the money? Does JPMorgan fund student loans? Have they stopped funding them? Do you even know? Just asking.

By the way (from the original story link)...

Joseph Evangelisti, a spokesman for JPMorgan Chase, said no TARP money would be used to make any payments for new jets or jet hangar improvements.

And Westchester County is delighted to have the new construction...

Westchester County, NY has recommended that the bank – a "high quality corporate citizen" – be awarded the lease to the hangar when it becomes available in April 2010, in part, because of how much money it is dedicating for the "construction of a state of the art 'green building.'"

Poor dumb slobs and liars?

K.

It is truly a wonderous thing when JP Morgan can ascertain that these monies are TARP and these aren't.My question would be thus...without the TARP money would they still have funds available to do this....are would these funds be needed to shore up other obligations.....obligations that TARP money has and will see to.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 10

RE: More of your tax dollars at work - 3/24/2009 2:36:36 PM

Kirata

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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

It is truly a wonderous thing when JP Morgan can ascertain that these monies are TARP and these aren't.

Is it? What's "wonderous" about it? I keep monies for different purposes separate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

without the TARP money would they still have funds available to do this....are would these funds be needed to shore up other obligations.....obligations that TARP money has and will see to.

If you don't know the answers to those question, isn't it a little early for a lynch mob to start knotting a rope and fomenting unrest?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/24/2009 2:38:44 PM >

(in reply to slvemike4u)

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RE: More of your tax dollars at work - 3/24/2009 2:41:08 PM

slvemike4u

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1) But all your separate piles are yours aren't they?If I borrow money from you ostensibly to pay my mortgage.....than take a trip to Vegas...with what I claim is separate money....I'm going to assume you will be a little pissed off.
2)Who said anything about a lynch mob...or fomenting unrest?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 12

RE: More of your tax dollars at work - 3/24/2009 2:48:27 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Well actually, I don't really know where the money they're spending is coming from. It may be that the improved look of their balance sheet allowed them to borrow to finance their plans. But in any case, they are able to move forward with them. Would you prefer they just sit quietly and count their chips? Or if not, what kind of spending to you think they might better engage in?

K.

If their balance sheet has improved to the point that allows these extravagances I would hope one of the first spending priorities would be to repay the taxpayers.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 3/24/2009 2:49:00 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 13

RE: More of your tax dollars at work - 3/24/2009 2:48:46 PM

Kirata

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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

If I borrow money from you ostensibly to pay my mortgage.....than take a trip to Vegas...with what I claim is separate money....I'm going to assume you will be a little pissed off.

Hell no, of course not. I know you promised your Mistress that trip. That's why I loaned you the money for your mortgage, so you wouldn't have to disappoint her. Don't worry about it, just get it back to me when you can.

K.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 14

RE: More of your tax dollars at work - 3/24/2009 2:53:33 PM

StrangerThan

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Well, of course they can probably say it isn't TARP money. Easy enough to do. Kind of like... oh getting your tax refund back and spending money from your checking account you knew was there before you put it in. It might not be your refund you're spending, but there's a decent chance you wouldn't be spending it if it weren't for the refund sitting there as a backup.

Then again, you may not be getting part of your refund depending on where you live. Several states are delaying them.

I have no answers. The situation we are in took years to develop and probably will take years to recover. Other than the obviously scary things about it, we're relying on other countries, some of who have opposing idealogies, to finance a lot of the debt we're creating right now.

The certainty about bills is they always come due, and we're almost creating our own derivative market bailing this crap out.

_____________________________

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RE: More of your tax dollars at work - 3/24/2009 2:53:50 PM

slvemike4u

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Extremely funny...and you managed to avoid the question at the same time......How very inventive of you.
BTW the check is in the mail.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 16

RE: More of your tax dollars at work - 3/24/2009 2:56:30 PM

Kirata

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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

If their balance sheet has improved to the point that allows these extravagances I would hope one of the first spending priorities would be to repay the taxpayers.

Well first of all, if you want to be competitive on the level at which JPMorgan does business, you need to have things like private corporate jets. It's a cost of doing business. You wanna be a farmer, you buy a tractor. You wanna be an international bank, don't buy a tractor.

And the "taxpayers" in this scenario are represented by their government, which provided the money and set the terms. Are you faulting JPMorgan for following those terms? I say that, of course, bearing in mind that there is no evidence at hand to indicate that they haven't. If it turns up, I'll be standing right beside you.

K.

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 17

RE: More of your tax dollars at work - 3/24/2009 3:01:39 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Extremely funny...and you managed to avoid the question at the same time...

Glad you liked it. And, of course, I don't know the answers either. But that's rather the point. There's nothing here for anybody to be going off the deep end over yet.

K.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

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RE: More of your tax dollars at work - 3/24/2009 3:09:05 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

By the way (from the original story link)...

Joseph Evangelisti, a spokesman for JPMorgan Chase, said no TARP money would be used to make any payments for new jets or jet hangar improvements.

Yeah, I saw this too and found it way too funny.

A month or so ago JP Morgan Chase claimed it couldn't determine where the TARP funds went because its assets were co-mingled and the government funds were not separated.

Now they are telling the opposite story.

quote:

And Westchester County is delighted to have the new construction...

Westchester County, NY has recommended that the bank – a "high quality corporate citizen" – be awarded the lease to the hangar when it becomes available in April 2010, in part, because of how much money it is dedicating for the "construction of a state of the art 'green building.'"

Just more greedy slobs and liars?

K.

Yes, definitely more greedy slobs and liars.

This is not "new construction".

They are attempting to take over an existing hangar at the airport and modify it.

A hangar used by one of the aviation fuel and service facilities at the airport.

Whose business would be significantly hurt by the loss.

From the original link:

Mike Dolphin, president of fixed-based operator Avitat Westchester, is fighting the bank's grand plans – because he says JPMorgan's proposed expansion would force his company out of the hangar the bank is eyeing. Westchester County, NY has recommended that the bank – a "high quality corporate citizen" – be awarded the lease to the hangar when it becomes available in April 2010, in part, because of how much money it is dedicating for the "construction of a state of the art "green building."

"I am the little guy, so we have a bit of a David versus Goliath fight on our hands," Dolphin told ABC News. He said JPMorgan Chase's plans come at the "wrong place, wrong time" and that despite scaled back private aviation from other TARP-funded companies, JPMorgan Chase is going ahead with its plans, which, if finalized by the county, will cut his business and his staff in half.

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RE: More of your tax dollars at work - 3/24/2009 3:15:31 PM

HeavansKeeper

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quote:

Was that why JPMorgan was given the money? Does JPMorgan fund student loans? Have they stopped funding them? Do you even know?

While not explicit (because so little of the money was directly allocated) a large portion of economic stabilization packages are directed to loans. This keeps small businesses starting, balloons staying afloat, and giving people the means toward education. In short, yes. Bailout money is partially, ideally, student loan money.

I'm not sure what JP Morgan does anymore. JPMorganChase has student loans. Chase has student loans. I assume JPMorgan does as well. My concern is not with one particular bank and their airplanes, it's the reckless spending of stimulus dollars like they're going out of style.

Officially, student loans haven't changed. They're still available... If you have a home, car, and credit score of 800. The requirements are prohibitive for young professionals-to-be who haven't been in the real world long enough to have good credit and equity.

Edit to clarify...

I'm not saying 700 billion dollars ought to be funneled into student loans. Thats crazy. I'm also not freaking out about this, as I think we could serve to go a year or two with a few less new lawyers. I'm just worried about "What happens when the money's gone?" If we didn't use it carefully, we could be super-fucked.

< Message edited by HeavansKeeper -- 3/24/2009 3:26:30 PM >

_____________________________

The Loving Owner of HisHeavan

... You've waited your whole life for this moment...

(in reply to Kirata)

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