Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student?

Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (Full Version)

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catize -> Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/11/2009 7:54:35 PM)
<the following is from my experiences: YMMV> Much of what I have learned about submission came about because I spent time reflecting on my own thoughts regarding what was required of me. No dominant taught me about subspace or how to increase my pain tolerance or how to find joy in service. And OMG (grins) I taught myself to cum on command. The dominant(s) certainly were very clear regarding what would please them. But I came up with the ‘action plan’, so to speak. I set goals for myself and figured out ways and means to serve to the best of my abilities. For the most part, I was encouraged to discuss my mental and physical goals (oft referred to as growth) and that was helpful to me. S. in particular was instrumental in this process. He was always willing to listen and show support when I made the next leap of understanding. I used a journal as a means to review my D/s relationships and my own learning curve. When I would write about something I could see clearly not only what I had accomplished but how I had reached that point. I am not saying that I did the work negates their decided influence on me. There were some areas where they had to explain things s-l-o-w-l-y (sometimes I can be quite thick headed!) or had to redirect my focus. And I asked a lot of questions in the beginning. Some of my questions were quite naïve. There were several times I asked something and they would have to stop laughing before they could answer. But once I grasped what they wanted, it was up to me to ‘get there’. Maybe some of you are thinking ‘damn, that sounds like hard labor!’ . Not every submissive is born a ‘natural’. I, for one, do not possess that thingy called ‘a slave’s heart’. And so I decided to discover what sort of heart I did have. For me it was a wondrous time of exploration and discovery. I was having too much fun to consider it a chore. Where am I going with this you may ask? My question is about dominants who promote the idea that they are singularly the ‘teachers’ in the D/s dynamic. They suggest the education of a submissive comes solely from the dominant. They wax eloquent on their ability to lead someone into submission. Which is all fine and good, except they give little credence to the submissive’s ability for self-study and self motivation. I think that is a myopic and somewhat stifling outlook. I can certainly say and do what a dominant wants me to say and do, but if I don’t examine my own internal dialog about those expectations, I have only memorized, I have not learned. The only question I can formulate at the moment is … Do you see it as teacher/student or is it research? Comments, disagreements, other points of view are welcomed!

lovingpet -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/11/2009 8:33:04 PM)
Learning is an internal thing. I don't think anyone can MAKE anyone learn anything. There is conscious processing that occurs for something to be a meaningful part of a person's overall knowledge. I am intentionally excluding basic conditioning methods which, although have an impressive flare when displayed to others, really do nothing to add to the substance of the person, relationship, or a broader and more in depth view of things. To learn in that critical way, one has to examine and experiment for themselves. I may be told what I am going to play with and turn inside out, but it is still mine to manipulate and dissect and test until I have come to the conclusions that I needed to reach. That is another point. What the submissive is to learn is more a matter of what the submissive needs than the actual goal or intent of the dominant. A good example is the day I finally wind up au naturale at a bdsm club. His goal may be to make me vulnerable. I am already vulnerable by simply being in that setting. My need is to learn to be bold enough to go forward with the play. The two agendas are completely different, but can be accomplished through the same set of actions. The outcomes are still going to be similar in a sense, but not really. I really believe when it comes to experiential learning of any kind the lesson learned is the one that needed learning, not the one that was part of the plan. That is why experience is so unique and stands apart from bookishness. It is individual. I prefer to think of a dominant as a guide really than a teacher. A teacher has to cover specific material and have you retain it. A guide shows you some things, but the conclusions are yours alone. Both are bringing forth learning, but one is a rote and useless process. The other is living and ever changing. I also believe that any two people guide each other to an extent. I am sure along the way dominants learn a great deal too. It is just another way a submissive serves. This is just my opinion at way too late at night. lovingpet

LadyPact -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/11/2009 8:37:00 PM)
None of the boys I have ever had relied on Me as their sole means of eduction, growth, or exploration. It just doesn't work that way in My eyes. How small minded could I possibly be if I expected all learning that My sub should encounter would be through Me alone? No one only ever has one teacher if they have exposure to learning opportunities.

QuixoticErrant -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/11/2009 8:43:14 PM)
Teaching in D/s is no different than teaching a class at college. Some students are naturals who come up with new ways of looking at things that surprise even you. Others need a lot more "taking by the hand." The dynamic is always different with each submissive. It is also really dependent on how much other experience she has. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with experienced submissives, not at all. However, her experience can be a double edged sword. On the one hand, for good or for ill, she knows what she likes to some extent. On the other, for good or for ill, she has an image of Doms based on her previous Doms, who may not do things like you do. Much of what I would call teaching is a mutual learning experience where you each figure out what play is going to be for both of you.

RainydayNE -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/11/2009 8:44:26 PM)
i've learned alot from my sir, i really have different ways of thinking about all sorts of things and there have been times when he's said he was surprised or proud of me for doing something he wasnt' expecting i figure, as with anything, it's a give and take

missturbation -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/11/2009 8:44:58 PM)
I think Sir and i have many things we can teach each other. Nothing is a one way street [:D]

zero69u2 -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/11/2009 9:01:42 PM)
I think of it as more of as learning as a couple.. and a ongoing development where both sides are learning about each other. I would think the purposes of having a journal or ongoing correspondance is so he can actively engage in your day to day and get a feel for whats going on with you. (knowing personal details improves communications but you did'nt say was this a private journal of your own goals and accomplishments or something you shared back and forth from time to time with master to discussion) They wax eloquent on their ability to lead someone into submission. This sounds like a yellow flag.. statement. a submissive submits when she wants and if she so chooses to do so and submission is not something given away to any joe with a flogger.. lightly. you expect a certain degree of control and sub/dom in the relationship development.. but its not something you can teach into submission.. there is no leading someone to submit to someone else. A dominant who is going to "teach you into submission " is obviously playing games to a degree.. now if you were totally naive coming into the whole D/s situation.. maybe his statement has some relevence.. a vanilla gal being introduced into BDSM would need alot of guidance and leading to find their own self. weather it be Dominant/Submissive/Swinger/Kinkster whatever they happen to be. and they might come to conclusions that may even be that they are just not their Master's submissive or Mistress's submissive. maybe they got introduced into lifestyle by someone who just was'nt their relationship partner. maybe you got the right relationship partner and everything was perfect from the start.. but now you want a different dynamic then what you started with there are times when you change as a person. Imagine a dominant teaching his new submissive all about D/s and then coming to the realization that he's been training a Domme this whole time... Maybe this is good/bad.. but you have to let the person grow how they are as a person.. and not let your own agenda influence that.. just love who your with and hopefully it'll all work it self out. "A mediocre Master tells, a good Master teaches, an excellent Master explains, but a True Master inspires"

AnnaOfAramis -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/11/2009 9:21:33 PM)
Well, I agree with you that there is a lot of internal processing that occurs in a slave or submissive. I also think that a Master CAN teach. Not all Masters are good teachers though, and there is a lot of "teaching" that really does not follow practices that have been proven to lead to learning- in those cases I think the submissive simply gets herself there. I work as a behavior educator. We basically take the scientific study of learning and apply it systematically to teach new skills or get rid of undesired ones. A Master who understands those principles would be very able to teach. Basically all organisms learn by reinforcement. They do things and if the result is reinforcing in some way, they will do it again. If there is no result or something they didn't like results, they will try not to do it again. You put a dollar in a machine, push a button and a candy bar comes out. Every time you do this, it works, so when you want a candy bar, you will do it. But if you go past that machine one day, and nothing happens, at first we will keep pushing the button, kick the machine, maybe try again. We might try again a few times. But if after several times and dollars later, nothing is coming out, you won't bother trying anymore! Similarly, if something you do is always reinforced, it will be learned by you. A child tantrums in the store to get candy (I seem to be stuck on candy today, lol) the mother gives in. The child's tantrum is reinforced by receiving the candy. The mother giving in to the tantrum is reinforced by receiving peace and quiet. A Master can systematically TEACH someone to be horny all the time. It doesn't seem like a thing that could be taught. But if he sets criteria for how to quantify what signifies horniness ( is it wetness, coming on to him, looking at sexual stuff, informing him, etc.) and he records anytime he sees those things occurring and he immediately praises and gives the slave attention for it EVERY time, he will see the amount of occurrences increase. The trick is in knowing what is reinforcing to the student and timing the reinforcer to occur at the same time as the behavior desired (or within 2 seconds). A reinforcer BY DEFINITION must increase the behavior or it is not a reinforcer, even if it is something the person likes. It is truly amazing what can be taught. I work with autistic children. I have one case where the child would scream, cry and push away any attempt to get a cup near him. After working with him for two months to first let me put the cup to his lips, then for him to put his hands on the cup while I put it to his lips, then for him to hold it while I assisted, he now drinks from a cup on his own. I have another girl, who after 15 minutes of work, would leave the table and we could not get her back to the table because she would throw a 40 minute tantrum pulling out fistfuls of hair in the process. I found something that is reinforcing to her and I only let her have it when she is at the table. Two weeks later, and the tantrums have disappeared and her disappearances from the table have lessened and she reliably returns to the table. I imagine pain tolerance can be taught too. The trick is to start where it is not painful and pair it with something rewarding, over time, gradually increase, and never go to the point where it becomes aversive. It's tricky, but it can be done. It never ceases to amaze me how much can be taught, but the teacher has to really understand what works and why in order to be successful, because there's a lot that can backfire inadvertently otherwise. So, yes I think it's possible, but not often done, because the dominant would probably need specialized training themselves to know how to do it. Anyway, your question interested me, so I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. anna

catize -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/12/2009 5:20:12 AM)
quote: I really believe when it comes to experiential learning of any kind the lesson learned is the one that needed learning, Lovingpet, you make some excellent points and I thank you! I really like the thought that we learn what is needed at the time!

catize -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/12/2009 5:21:29 AM)
quote: No one only ever has one teacher if they have exposure to learning opportunities. LadyPact, thanks for your comment! I agree that if one is to learn well there needs to be varied input.

catize -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/12/2009 5:22:32 AM)
QE: And I would say the ‘good or ill’ is dependent on whether the submissive has learned ‘tasks’ only, or if they have learned submission.

catize -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/12/2009 5:23:48 AM)
Rainyday, I hope I didn’t come across as saying I haven’t learned from my dominants because I have! It is indeed give and take, thanks!

catize -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/12/2009 5:25:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation I think Sir and i have many things we can teach each other. Nothing is a one way street [:D] Misst: Recently, S. said that ‘doors open’ for him when he is with me. He has years more experience than I do and I hadn’t considered the possibility that he could learn from me; it was a pleasant thought!

catize -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/12/2009 5:26:49 AM)
Zero, my journal was private, but when I would have a light-bulb revelation I would talk to the dominant and share my thoughts. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m21.gif[/image]

catize -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/12/2009 5:30:26 AM)
quote: Basically all organisms learn by reinforcement. Annaof, I agree that what motivates us is a very individual thing. But I also believe that we can be internally motivated. To please the dominant is my goal, but his pleasure, with or without his praise, satisfies me. If it didn’t, I doubt I would be motivated to be pleasing.

LadyPact -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/12/2009 5:30:46 AM)
Maybe I still have sleep in My eyes. Please tell Me that's not a reposting of your private journal that someone else chose to plaster on the forums. ETA: Forgive My manners catize. I appreciate your comment in thanking Me.

catize -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/12/2009 5:34:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Maybe I still have sleep in My eyes. Please tell Me that's not a reposting of your private journal that someone else chose to plaster on the forums. What?? Huh?? ETA: Forgive My manners catize. I appreciate your comment in thanking Me ETA: Good morning LadyPact and you are welcome.

lovingpet -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/12/2009 5:48:24 AM)
While I agree that such conditioning can and does occur with humans just as it does with any other creature, I don't think it goes far enough for the purposes of permanent learning and change. It becomes a reflexive response to some attempt and I also see working for a reinforcer to not address a deeper issue, that of manipulative behavior. The dominant become simply a vehicle for getting what the submissive wants because he or she wants it. I don't care to be played that way. Studies show even greater success with beginning with a reinforcer, but also helping a student internalize the values and purpose of the desired behavior in the person's life. This is a much longer process, but, as internalization occurs, the reinforcer becomes less and less necessary. Instead, the person is self motivated to act in a particular fashion. That motivation is based on an understanding of why the behavior is necessary, good, appropriate, and how it affects themselves and others. This is a process that only the individual can complete the loop. I don't want to be left permanently reinforcing a behavior for several reasons. First of all, I am busy and have a whole world of other things I need to be able to focus on. Second, and more important, is that if the reinforcer is removed, I lose any progress I have made. Similar to the change in behavior after the machine didn't take your dollar bills. Your behavior changed for the negative for the vending company. I have done similar work with such children and I HATED holiday breaks. The parents often couldn't keep up with all the reinforcements or didn't bother to, and we were nearly at square one when they returned if the skill was even remotely new. It doesn't take all that long to uncondition a response that has not been assimilated by the learner. All this is just to point out that permanent and meaningful change still occurs within the context of internal processing. If loud noises do not scare the child, but rather he finds them fun, he will love the fuzzy bunnies even more instead of becoming conditioned to fear them. Perspective is very important and cannot be overlook. I agree with others who say that a couple should be learning together both for and about their partner. This is just good, common sense relationship stuff. As far as D/s is concerned, I expect to be able to bring my questions to my dominant. I also expect that he may give me many different ways of acquiring the information or experience I am seeking. In the end, I have learned when it becomes a part of me and my thought patterns. Until then, it is just random input with no bearing on my life or relationship. lovingpet

chamberqueen -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/12/2009 6:30:45 AM)
I remember once being told by my Master that he had trained me well. My first thought was, "you didn't train me, I trained myself". I could easily acknowledge his guidance but felt that the majority of it came from within. I am a very careful watcher, and I saw the things that pleased and displeased him, looked for patterns, took on things that I hadn't been asked to do, and knew that he had also learned things from me. Then I got a very rude wake up call when I handled myself badly in a situation that I wasn't expecting. I seemed to do just fine when I knew basically what was coming but there was an evening full of surprises (and other people who were behaving badly) and I slipped up big time. I ended up earning a punishment from it even though earlier in the week I had been told by my Master that he couldn't foresee me ever doing anything to disappoint him. I did a lot of reflection in the days leading up to the punishment (it was never given the same night to make sure that there was no anger attached) I saw that I had been thinking too much of myself. I was so proud of myself for being a good slave - which I typically was - that I hadn't given him enough credit in my mind. Yes, most of what came from me was from my own self discipline and growth, but I had neglected to see just how much he taught me mainly because it was so gently done. It wasn't as if we would sit down and talk a subject out but it was always very subtle. It will be different in each relationship. I have helped to train others and I would normally start with a small lecture, say on bondage or wax play, going over the safety issues, talking about different techniques, and then doing a demonstration - first on myself, then on them, then letting them do it to me. It is obvious that it is a teaching situation. Other times I have taught a lesson with simply a calm and sweetly worded sentence to get their minds to go down a different track. The important thing that I learned is that for as clever as I may think I am, and as willing as I am to please, that I truly needed the right motivator to bring out the best in me. That is a form of training in itself.

Jeptha -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/12/2009 10:51:13 AM)
The first consciously D/s relationship I had was with a very self-motivated sub. (We'd played around with elements of D/s in previous relationships, but without calling it such or researching it much.) She was very actively trying to figure out where she fit in the big, shiny new world of kink, D/s, etc. She was also a research professional, so she enjoyed reading and reporting about stuff. She didn't neglect the experiential part, though, and we did a lot of exploring together. I would say that I probably learned a lot more from her than she did from me. However, I had my part to play, and I brought something to the table, too. I think she would agree that we were well matched for each other , but now I do wonder; would she have gotten more out of being with a more experienced dominant? What? We're still friends, so maybe I'll ask her for her thoughts on that. In general, I do have some ambivalence about the term "Master", but maybe I should give that a consider, too. PS: great question, catize!

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