RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (Full Version)

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Freyathelady -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/12/2009 12:42:44 PM)

The slave teaches the master and the master teaches the slave.  BDSM activities are things that cannot be adequately learned by reading a book or attending a lecture.  They must be learned by doing and, as such, they require a body to do or be done to.  The sub who offers up his body to his mistress for her to practice a new skill on is her teacher in a way.  If he has the experience to offer her advice, all the better.  One night I was at a party with a switch I had met on CM who gave me an in depth lesson in the use of the violet wand and later at the same event, a sub friend of mine let me practice my flogging on him.  When I accidently hit in the wrong place he let me know and my aim got better because of it.  I consider both of these men as teachers to me and I don't feel that their training made me less of a domme.  Even though they knew more, I was still the one with the power and they were just using their knowledge to make me more powerful. 




AnnaOfAramis -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/12/2009 12:49:44 PM)



lovingpet

quote:

Studies show even greater success with beginning with a reinforcer, but also helping a student internalize the values and purpose of the desired behavior in the person's life. This is a much longer process, but, as internalization occurs, the reinforcer becomes less and less necessary. Instead, the person is self motivated to act in a particular fashion. That motivation is based on an understanding of why the behavior is necessary, good, appropriate, and how it affects themselves and others. This is a process that only the individual can complete the loop.

I don't want to be left permanently reinforcing a behavior


You are absolutely correct!! Good reinforcement training fades the reinforcement as soon as possible. I praised my son very much every time he sat on the potty when he was being potty trained - imagine how ludicrous it would be if I still lavishly praised him every time he sat ton the toilet, lol!!

Also, reinforcement does not have to be tangible. Often in fact it is something like attention, or avoidance or sensory that reinforces our behavior. A reinforcer is simply whatever it is we get out of something that keep us doing it, regardless if someone else gives it to us, or it is built in.




DesFIP -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/12/2009 1:05:25 PM)

He couldn't teach me to submit, he just inspired it by gaining my trust and by making right decisions. And by answering questions so I could agree beforehand that his decisions were the best possible ones in the situation.

But there are things he has taught me and I personally enjoy a teacher/student dynamic. Same as I enjoy a D/lg dynamic. I don't want to have to internalize everything myself. Perhaps I'm lazy? [:D]




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/12/2009 2:01:31 PM)

It's a romantic and sweet idea, but I see more fem subs promoting the idea than anything.  They like being a passive lesser-than with someone superior leading and taking all responsibility.




agirl -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/12/2009 3:13:14 PM)

It has it's plusses. I'm definitely lesser than in plenty of ways and do have someone who's *superior* and I'm not going to argue the toss about responsibility. He's welcome to it.

agirl




catize -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/12/2009 3:42:09 PM)

quote:

 However, I had my part to play, and I brought something to the table, too.
I think she would agree that we were well matched for each other , but now I do wonder; would she have gotten more out of being with a more experienced dominant?
What?

We're still friends, so maybe I'll ask her for her thoughts on that.


I’m guessing here, but I think she’ll probably say she learned more because you supported her research rather than just saying ‘you gotta learn only what I want you to learn the way I want you to learn it.”
My philosophy is that theory makes a solid foundation for practice.




catize -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/12/2009 4:01:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

It's a romantic and sweet idea, but I see more fem subs promoting the idea than anything.  They like being a passive lesser-than with someone superior leading and taking all responsibility.


I’m not sure there are more, but it is probably closer to 50-50.  I wrote about this topic because of an email I got from a dominant, he commented on something I wrote and found it ‘extraordinary’ that I managed what he described as ‘self-calm’.  Made me look at how, for me, a lot of it  (not all of it, though) was an internal course of action. 




RumpusParable -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/12/2009 6:18:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
Do you see it as teacher/student or is it research?


Personally, I've never been able to relate to the so-common idea expressed of dominant as wiser and teaching vs. submissive as less to/student.  I learn a lot just from introspection.  Also from reading.  And then, from others -dom, sub, switch, and none of the above.

I'm not interested in being anyone's guide or teacher in a D/s relationship... that is for work or artistry to me, skills, not a personal relationship.  And, I'd find it rather unfullfilling if I didn't gain some amount of personal education from my sub/bottom partner.  Ideally to me it's something we both walk away from mutually enriched or expanded in experience and knowledge.




DavanKael -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/12/2009 6:45:41 PM)

Hi, catize----
If you're inclined, I soooooo would like to know how to teach one's self to cum on command (As you noted you have done in your op). 
I like the idea of a teacher/student dynamic.  Someone in another thread mentioned this sort of dynamic as part of a Daddy Dom dynamic, though (No offense intended to anyone who participates in such) that terminology creeps me out. 
In reality, I am far more formally educated than anyone with whom I have had a relationship.  Formal education isn't the litmus test, however, for whether or not someone can teach me something.  I like to think that, whatever else has transpired in relationships, that those with whom I have related and I have learned things from each other. 
So, I guess the long and short of my response to your post is that I like the teacher/student dynamic though I can't say I think it'd be pronounced (Or even desirable as something super overt) relationally. 
  Davan




catize -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/12/2009 7:26:44 PM)

quote:

  Personally, I've never been able to relate to the so-common idea expressed of dominant as wiser and teaching vs. submissive as less to/student.  I learn a lot just from introspection.


 
I believe introspection is a wonderful preventative against that notion!
I’ve never met anyone who knew it all; but I have met a few who thought they did!  [:D]




RainydayNE -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/12/2009 7:28:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RumpusParable

Ideally to me it's something we both walk away from mutually enriched or expanded in experience and knowledge.


indeedily




catize -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/12/2009 10:21:23 PM)

quote:

  I could easily acknowledge his guidance but felt that the majority of it came from within.   <snip>   that I hadn't given him enough credit in my mind.  Yes, most of what came from me was from my own self discipline and growth, but I had neglected to see just how much he taught me mainly because it was so gently done.    


Your point is well taken.  It is important to realize there are many ways to learn and a variety of sources to learn from.  My ‘issue’ in my OP stems from those dominants who take all the credit for every accomplishment of their submissive (or as LA pointed out, the submissives who give all the credit to their dominant).. 
“I will tell you how to please me” is a very different thing from “I will teach you how to be pleasing.” 




Jeptha -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/13/2009 11:00:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

...I like the idea of a teacher/student dynamic. Someone in another thread mentioned this sort of dynamic as part of a Daddy Dom dynamic, though (No offense intended to anyone who participates in such) that terminology creeps me out.
In reality, I am far more formally educated than anyone with whom I have had a relationship. Formal education isn't the litmus test, however, for whether or not someone can teach me something. ...

I like that dynamic, too.

I believe that there is something to "the perspective of authority"...
When you inhabit those roles, it becomes your prerogative to both view the big picture and alternately zoom in on the little details, as desired.

The actual activity engaged in may be more managing than teaching. For example, at my work there are supervisors who don't actually teach very much, but they try to interpret, fit and direct all the different details and aspects of things into the larger picture of the "mission statement".





MaamJay -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/14/2009 1:59:37 AM)

I see it as a 2-way street, both learn from the other, but likely they'll learn different things. The most important thing to Me is that both be WILLING to learn and both be willing to embrace personal change. That's where the latest potential sub I was talking to fell ... as soon as I encouraged him to make a very small personal change (coming here to these forums to learn about bdsm from more sources than Myself!) ... he refused. The relationship's going nowhere if both sides aren't willing to grow.

Maam Jay aka violet[A]




antipode -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/14/2009 11:51:57 AM)

quote:

The slave teaches the master and the master teaches the slave


I'd amend that a tad: I teach my sub/slave, and I learn from my sub/slave.




catize -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/14/2009 5:52:18 PM)

You have mail!




Prinsexx -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/15/2009 4:22:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
My question is about dominants who promote the idea that they are singularly the ‘teachers’ in the D/s dynamic.  They suggest the education of a submissive comes solely from the dominant. 
The only question I can formulate at the moment is … Do you see it as teacher/student or is it research?
 
Comments, disagreements, other points of view are welcomed!

Most of the dominants I have had experiences with do promote themselves as the 'teacher' I agree with that. But that underlying assumpyion beneath the dynamic doesn't work for me.
Like you I have spent time and a great deal of energy getting to know who I am. I really do consider that I was born submissive during intimacy. But that is the submissiveness of being one of a multiple (twin) and needed some reasearch as you put it, and indeed courage, to portray itself in this 'grown up world'.
I have stated a similar idea to this on another thread: there is a paradox and an ambivalence within many dominants where they start out as the teacher but continue on into control and it is the sort of control that stif;es a submissive. A kind of insecurity emerges when they first feel the experince of their submissive. An example of this is that I don't have a safeword...and yes I can feel when a dominant reaches what they consider to be my limit in a kind of unexpressed fear of huting me. This develops as selfishness on their part. Someone like that is never sensitive enough to simply feel subtle signals within their submissive's body that says 'you have just reached my pain threshold for today thank you.'
But so many dominants are sensitive, caring, get a sense of satisfaction by being in control of the scene, wait for a feling of experience withimn the bosy of the submissive. One of the coolest things ever said to me is: you make me feel so powerful when I am with you.'... and I was clamped, hooded, and handciffed at that time. It's great when, at the point of complete immobilisation, in a situation of physical passivity, for a submissive to hear something like that. Tp hear acknowledgement. It's a very real moment of power exchange.... (as opposed to authority transfer which is entirely different).
I feel diifferently than you about pain thresholds though. I really enjoy a dominant who 'has a plan' with regard to that. I guess I am not so in control of my pain threshold. Too many factors involved but the biggest factor is how trusting I feel.
Trusting is the authority transfer, the scroll of control, the qualification of teacher, handed to the dom(me).





OwnedLilMegan -> RE: Dominant As Teacher/Submissive as Student? (3/31/2009 10:32:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

<the following is from my experiences: YMMV> 
Much of what I have learned about submission came about because I spent time reflecting on my own thoughts regarding what was required of me. 
No dominant taught me about subspace or how to increase my pain tolerance or how to find joy in service. And OMG (grins) I taught myself to cum on command.  
The dominant(s) certainly were very clear regarding what would please them. But I came up with the ‘action plan’, so to speak.  I set goals for myself and figured out ways and means to serve to the best of my abilities.  For the most part, I was encouraged to discuss my mental and physical goals (oft referred to as growth) and that was helpful to me.
S. in particular was instrumental in this process.  He was always willing to listen and show support when I made the next leap of understanding.  I used a journal as a means to review my D/s relationships and my own learning curve.  When I would write about something I could see clearly not only what I had accomplished but how I had reached that point.
I am not saying that **I did the work** negates their decided influence on me.  There were some areas where they had to explain things s-l-o-w-l-y (sometimes I can be quite thick headed!) or had to redirect my focus. And I asked a lot of questions in the beginning.  Some of my questions were quite naïve.  There were several times I asked something and they would have to stop laughing before they could answer.  
But once I grasped what they wanted, it was up to me to ‘get there’. 
Maybe some of you are thinking ‘damn, that sounds like hard labor!’  .  Not every submissive is born a ‘natural’.   I, for one, do not possess that thingy called ‘a slave’s heart’.  And so I decided to discover what sort of heart I did have.  For me it was a wondrous time of exploration and discovery.  I was having too much fun to consider it a chore.
Where am I going with this you may ask?  My question is about dominants who promote the idea that they are singularly the ‘teachers’ in the D/s dynamic.  They suggest the education of a submissive comes solely from the dominant.  They wax eloquent on their ability to lead someone into submission.  Which is all fine and good, except they give little credence to the submissive’s ability for self-study and self motivation.  I think that is a myopic and somewhat stifling outlook.  I can certainly say and do what a dominant wants me to say and do, but if I don’t examine my own internal dialog about those expectations, I have only memorized, I have not learned. 
The only question I can formulate at the moment is … Do you see it as teacher/student or is it research?
 
Comments, disagreements, other points of view are welcomed!


if it doesn't come naturally, you've got to learn somehow. and learning from yourself something considered foreign to you...sounds a bit impractical.

my "Teacher" counts on the wheels in my head to start turning every time He "presents a new lesson," so to speak, and He knows that's exactly what's going to happen. sometimes He stands back and watches, and if i falter He corrects me. so the way i see it, everything i am doing is all a calculated part of the "lesson" anyway. i'd call that guidance, so i definitely see it as a teacher/student sort of relationship.




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